Ammo Vs Heat: Its the same

[hadoken]

Yes, it does matter. .67 is over 4% of 16. It's a 4+% difference in the cost of the ability, not something to ignore. That's not even taking into account the 25% bigger max regen range of heat (33.3% compared to 40%). Over time in pve, the costs add up to a lot and in burst situations, one is clearly superior.

 

As pretty clearly pointed out though the cost difference is irrelevent given how the regen mechanics work. To take advantage of it you shoot yourself in the foot with regen.

 

It's balanced.

[CharleyDanger]

Yes, it does matter. .67 is over 4% of 16. It's a 4+% difference in the cost of the ability, not something to ignore. That's not even taking into account the 25% bigger max regen range of heat (33.3% compared to 40%). Over time in pve, the costs add up to a lot and in burst situations, one is clearly superior.

 

No

 

Hop on your trooper and use an ability that costs 2 ammo. Dose the ability use .67% of the 3rd ammo bar? No it dose not. Your flat out wrong

 

Heat regen is the exact same as ammo regen! Top regen is lost once the trooper is at 7 ammo, not 8. So 5 bar of ammo can be used before the regen drops right? 5 bars of ammo equal 41% correct? The BH drops at 40. That means 39 heat can be used before they drop. A 2% difference means absolutely nothing being that abilities cost 16 and 25%. How in the hell do ppl come up with this 25% nonsense.

[Baelish]

No

 

Hop on your trooper and use an ability that costs 2 ammo. Dose the ability use .67% of the 3rd ammo bar? No it dose not. Your flat out wrong

 

Heat regen is the exact same as ammo regen! Top regen is lost once the trooper is at 7 ammo, not 8. So 5 bar of ammo can be used before the regen drops right? 5 bars of ammo equal 41% correct? The BH drops at 40. That means 39 heat can be used before they drop. A 2% difference means absolutely nothing being that abilities cost 16 and 25%. How in the hell do ppl come up with this 25% nonsense.

 

And all that is still assuming that the display is accurate. There's no way to be sure at the moment that it's not all "count out of 1000", with tooltips and UI elements rounding and displaying as necessary. If you're making a mirror, that's the lazy way to it. Fortunately it also happens to be the best way to make sure the two classes actually are mirrors.

 

Since nobody can actually say with any precision whatsoever exactly how much of either resource is used and regenerated at any given time (the rounding errors are less than any error introduced by player variability) it makes the most sense to assume the devs have taken the lazy/canny way out and it's just about display masking.

[KiranK]

My math is rounded because the abilities are rounded. Dose a 2 ammo trooper ability use 2 ammo or 2.something? I round to 16 not because it fits my argument, but because it fits how the game plays.

 

If you look at the percentages a BH can get off 2.4 flame bursts when a trooper can only get off 2. How do I use .40 of flame burst sir? 3 flame burst put a BH below top regen. 3 pulse put a trooper below top regen. The math fits if you just use some common sense.

 

Does 2 ammo equal 16.66%, yes. Does 2 ammo use 17% of the bar, no. 17% would mean using 3 ammo. Do 2 ammo abilities cost 3 ammo?, no they do not lol. This is why 2 ammo uses 16% not 17%. You have to round down because to do other wise would mean using 3 ammo on 2 ammo abilities, follow?

 

 

Sorry for the double post

 

Short sighted. In certain situations, the trooper will be under top regen using abilities in the exact same fashion as the bounty hunter. Sure, with a full 100% bar they both act the same FROM THE START, but since we don't all engage in combat with 100% resources and then top off instantly for the next fight, the extra resource advantage of the bounty hunter is clearly the preferential version. You're trying to compare the two under absolute optimum conditions fighting over a very limited period of time. That's a stacked, one sided, biased argument that holds no significance what-so-ever. Even a slight advantage is a clear and unquestionable imbalance.

[Rahak]

I know they're likely the same, but I just prefer heat.

Seems easier for me to manage somehow.

[CharleyDanger]

Short sighted. In certain situations, the trooper will be under top regen using abilities in the exact same fashion as the bounty hunter. Sure, with a full 100% bar they both act the same FROM THE START, but since we don't all engage in combat with 100% resources and then top off instantly for the next fight, the extra resource advantage of the bounty hunter is clearly the preferential version. You're trying to compare the two under absolute optimum conditions fighting over a very limited period of time. That's a stacked, one sided, biased argument that holds no significance what-so-ever. Even a slight advantage is a clear and unquestionable imbalance.

 

First of all, what extra resource? I have explained time and time again that the BH does not have a resource advantage. Please explain this resource advantage. In the original post, and many times since, I have shown the clear cut mathematics that prove there is no resource advantage.

 

When will the trooper be under top regen using the same abilities as the trooper? Please give an example. It dose not matter the situation, the abilities cost the same % of the bar. 2 ammo is 16.66%, but no ability uses .66% of the following bar. Therefore each ability will cost 16 or 25% of the bar, no matter if its ammo or heat. Given this fact, under no scenario will either class have an advantage. Half bar, full bar, empty bar, its the same. Go ahead, try to PROVE it other wise.

 

Im sorry if using mathematical facts stacks my argument. Im also sorry that you cant comprehend the simple math. I did not think I would have to break down how the percentages remain the same at 1 bar, 2 bar, 3, bar and 16 heat, 32 heat, and so on.

 

For the record, my main is trooper. I have played both classes a good bit and they are the same. I have no bias what so ever. Im trying to tell you that MY class is not at a disadvantage. Some of us can take our emotions out of our thought process and make informed decisions.

Edited April 12, 2012 by CharleyDanger

[icewalls]

Clear cut truncated mathematics?

Sounds like someone failed high school math class involving fractions and decimals.

[CharleyDanger]

Clear cut truncated mathematics?

Sounds like someone failed high school math class involving fractions and decimals.

 

Does a 2 ammo attack (16.66% of the bar) use .66% of the 3rd ammo? Why no it dose not. Its truncated because that how the game mechanic works. Sound like someone failed basic comprehension lol.

 

If I used your math, 2 ammo attacks would cost 3 ammo. Then there would be a true imbalance.

Edited April 12, 2012 by CharleyDanger

[Mizab]

Wow, really?. 0.125 advantage. I would have to use vent heat 10 times to get a 1.25 heat advantage. I would have to use vent heat 128 times to get off an extra flame burst. Again, wow.

 

 

 

I can tell your book smart, but how about some common sense lol. Both BH and trooper would be under the top regen on the 3rd attack. You would have to go through a ton of rotations before seeing an advantage. You act as if the BH is getting extra abilities off left and right. The fact is that in an entire WZ a BH might get 2 or 3 extra abilities off, and thats over how many fights? 30, 40 maybe?

 

 

 

No it is not. The trooper does not fall below the top regen until they hit 7 ammo. That means that 41.66% (5 ammo bars) of ammo can be used before falling below the top. regen. The BH does not fall below the top regen untill they hit 40% heat. It is virtual the same. There is no advantage what so ever. You are talking a 1.66% advantage. Thats, ill round your way this time lol, 1/8 of a minor ability lol.

 

 

 

Its misleading? how?

 

Even if you do not follow your rotation how hard is it to know your current ammo. You are subtracting 2 or 3 from your bar. Only a glance is needed if any to keep up lol. I have a lvl 50 Vanguard, I have no problem keeping track.

 

In this whole thing I forgot to mention that my main is a damn trooper lol. I only made this thread bc I was tired of guys like you QQing over meaningless fractions.

 

So even here you do admit they are slightly different. People are flaming you because you said they are the same. I know when I hear the word same I think identical, which they are not. Now I will agree with you the if there is any advantage it is very small and requires a very long rotation to be seen.

 

Yes your math is poor because you are rounding and using percents and decimals, when trying to claim something is the same. It would have been better to have kept most numbers as a fraction due to that being a much more accurate way to portray the data.

[CharleyDanger]

So even here you do admit they are slightly different. People are flaming you because you said they are the same. I know when I hear the word same I think identical, which they are not. Now I will agree with you the if there is any advantage it is very small and requires a very long rotation to be seen.

 

Yes your math is poor because you are rounding and using percents and decimals, when trying to claim something is the same. It would have been better to have kept most numbers as a fraction due to that being a much more accurate way to portray the data.

 

X/ Its so frustrating debating you guys lol. Why are there no decimals? Because it is not the way the mechanic works.

 

2 ammo attack is 16.66%, your 100% right. Dose the 2 ammo attack use .66% of the 3rd ammo? No it does not. If the decimals were added then 2 ammo attacks would 3 ammo, follow. Im not twisting math to fit my argument. Im going off of what the game does in combat. I have made this point so many damn times, yet no one ever responds after I make it.

 

You are really gonna split hairs with me? The same means the exact same? Whatever, they are as balanced as balanced gets in an imperfect world. By no means should ppl be pleading "unbalanced" in the case of BH v Trooper.

 

EDIT:

 

I apologize, I should of just edited my OP instead of getting mad at you for not reading the previous posts.

Edited April 12, 2012 by CharleyDanger

[icewalls]

X/ Its so frustrating debating you guys lol. Why are there no decimals? Because it is not the way the mechanic works.

 

2 ammo attack is 16.66%, your 100% right. Dose the 2 ammo attack use .66% of the 3rd ammo? No it does not. If the decimals were added then 2 ammo attacks would 3 ammo, follow. Im not twisting math to fit my argument. Im going off of what the game does in combat. I have made this point so many damn times, yet no one ever responds after I make it.

 

You are really gonna split hairs with me? The same means the exact same? Whatever, they are as balanced as balanced gets in an imperfect world. By no means should ppl be pleading "unbalanced" in the case of BH v Trooper.

 

EDIT:

 

I apologize, I should of just edited my OP instead of getting mad at you for not reading the previous posts.

 

I am going to split hairs with you.

I have just tested it out, when i flame burst 3 times on a strong mob, it comes out to 33 heat.

In mathematical terms,

16 + 16 + 16 = 48 total heat

3 second x 5 heat = 15 heat regen.

48 total cost != 50(6 ammo) total cost for trooper.

 

You can argue all you want, I just tried this in game. Try using a 1.5 cd 16 heat skill 3 times, see if it comes out to 33, and it will.

[CharleyDanger]

I am going to split hairs with you.

I have just tested it out, when i flame burst 3 times on a strong mob, it comes out to 33 heat.

In mathematical terms,

16 + 16 + 16 = 48 total heat

3 second x 5 heat = 15 heat regen.

48 total cost != 50(6 ammo) total cost for trooper.

 

You can argue all you want, I just tried this in game. Try using a 1.5 cd 16 heat skill 3 times, see if it comes out to 33, and it will.

 

Whats your point?

 

I hopped on my BH and tested it out. It was 26, not 33. If you looked right after the 3rd burst it was 33, if you waited for the GCD to finish it comes to 26. And its supposed to come to 26, and you have to wait for the GCD to finish because it is dead time (no ability can be preformed)

 

3 bursts = 48 heat

 

3 burst = 4.5 secs (GCD = 1.5 secs x 3 bursts = 4.5 secs)

 

Heat dissipates at 5/sec at top regen

 

5 x 4.5 secs = 22.5

 

48 - 22.5 = 25.5 (Game will show 26 because the bar does not show 1/10 of secs)

 

 

 

I also hopped on my trooper. I used the mirror ability that is called Ion Pulse, and it came to 9 ammo. Lets break that down

 

3 Pulses = 6 ammo

 

3 Pulses = 4.5 secs

 

.60 ammo x 4.5 secs = 2.7 ammo, and in game that = 3 ammo (The game will never use an ammo unless 100% of the ammo is used, on the flip the games gives an ammo as soon as 0.01% of the ammo is regened)

 

6 ammo - 3 ammo = 3 ammo used

 

The bottom line:

 

Trooper has 75% ammo left after 3 pulses (9 bars of ammo)

 

BH has 74% left after 3 bursts (26% heat used)

 

 

Wait... can this be? The BH only has 74% of his bar to use on abilities.... The trooper... hold on, let me carry the 2... double check the calculator... Yep, the trooper has 75% of his bar left for abilities

 

ADVANTAGE TROOPER!!!!!!! (Not really, 1% means absolutely nothing)

 

Thanks for playing, kid

 

Do you understand the concept of virtually? For example, your in a car lot looking at cars. You ask the salesmen "Whats the difference between this car and that car" The salesmen then says "Its the same year, make, and model. The only difference is the toe boards on the side, they are virtually the same" It means that they are not exactly the same bolt for bolt, but in real life context you will find no differences what so ever. BH and Trooper are virtually the same. The whole thing is an nonissue, but hey, its the internet. People gonna ***** and QQ.

Edited April 13, 2012 by CharleyDanger

[GitRDone]

 

Whats your point?

 

Denying the obvious advantage to BH

 

Trooper has 75% ammo left after 3 pulses (9 bars of ammo)

BH has 74% left after 3 bursts (26% heat used)

 

Purposely misleading statement.

9 ammo / 2 per ion pulse = 4.5 ion pulses left

74 heat / 16 per flame burst = 4.625 flame bursts left

Even the example, which you gave where you claimed a clear Trooper advantage, actually has a 2.77% BH advantage.

 

Thanks for playing, kid

 

Resorting to insults when misleading comments fail to convince people

 

Do you understand the concept of virtually? For example, your in a car lot looking at cars. You ask the salesmen "Whats the difference between this car and that car" The salesmen then says "Its the same year, make, and model. The only difference is the toe boards on the side, they are virtually the same" It means that they are not exactly the same bolt for bolt, but in real life context you will find no differences what so ever. BH and Trooper are virtually the same. The whole thing is an nonissue, but hey, its the internet. People gonna ***** and QQ.

 

Made up story attempting to use misleading context that has no relation to the current problem.

 

A more accurate analogy would be if the Banker said that 4% extra interest on your mortgage loan was "VIRTUALLY THE SAME" and you shouldn't worry about it. (It only comes to a couple hundred thousand dollars in extra interest payments)

 

 

Responses in red

 

Edit: The 4% advantage between BH and Trooper doesn't actually affect my gameplay in any way whatsoever. 4% more would mean I do 442,000 damage instead of 425,000 damage when I play Civil War pvp. The outcome is the same. However, I do feel for the average middle class players to whom 4% might be the difference between getting enough medals or not.

Edited April 20, 2012 by GitRDone

[CharleyDanger]

 

Denying the obvious advantage to BH

 

Trooper has 75% ammo left after 3 pulses (9 bars of ammo)

BH has 74% left after 3 bursts (26% heat used)

 

Purposely misleading statement.

9 ammo / 2 per ion pulse = 4.5 ion pulses left

74 heat / 16 per flame burst = 4.625 flame bursts left

Even in the example you gave where you claimed a clear Trooper advantage actually has a 2.77% BH advantage.

 

First of all you cant use .5 or .625 of an ability in SWTOR. 4.5 = 4 abilities left to be used. 4.625 = 4 abilities left to be used. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Is 4 the same amount as 4? Ok, lets move on Mr. Mathematic. An obvious BH advantage you say? Its a 0.125 advantage in a game that rounds its numbers, good one lol.

 

Go back and read my post again. Did you see how I admitted to being sarcastic when I said the Trooper had an advantage? The advantage you see on paper does not actually exist when you take into account how the game actually plays. Does a Trooper 2 ammo ability (16.66%) ever use .66 of the 3rd ammo? Why not? because the entire ammo must be used in order for the ammo to be spent. This mechanic throws all decimals out the window.

 

I remember destroying your first posts back on page 1 or 2. You made all the same arguments, you said I was using misleading math, and I then used your math to show how little you understand. Where is your response to that? Or do you finally understand that 100s of abilities would have to be used by the BH in order to see a 1 ability advantage?

 

 

 

Resorting to insults when misleading comments fail to convince people

 

He was convinced. Note how it is you responding and not him. 4 is the same as 4, he was smart enough to understand that lol. What is misleading is trying to fit decimals into a game that does not use them. 4.999999999 means you can get off 4 abilities. Please, try to prove me wrong.

 

Do you understand the concept of virtually? For example, your in a car lot looking at cars. You ask the salesmen "Whats the difference between this car and that car" The salesmen then says "Its the same year, make, and model. The only difference is the toe boards on the side, they are virtually the same" It means that they are not exactly the same bolt for bolt, but in real life context you will find no differences what so ever. BH and Trooper are virtually the same. The whole thing is an nonissue, but hey, its the internet. People gonna ***** and QQ.

 

Made up story attempting to use misleading context that has no relation to the current problem.

 

A more accurate analogy would be if the Banker said that 4% extra interest on your mortgage loan was "VIRTUALLY THE SAME" and you shouldn't worry about it. (It only comes to a couple hundred thousand dollars in extra interest payments)

 

So you use a made up story to prove my made up story wrong? I guess I can try to make it even more simple.

 

4.5 is not the same as 4.625, correct.

 

4.5 and 4.625 allow for 4 abilities to be used, correct.

 

vir·tu·al·ly

virtually - in essence or effect but not in fact; "the strike virtually paralyzed the city"; "I'm virtually broke"

 

4.5 is virtually the same as 4.625 when you considered that the mechanic rounds down, never up.

 

So your made up story, where its a huge difference, does not fit into the context of the debate. My made up story, where there is virtually no difference, fits perfectly. Why?, BECAUSE THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN THE CONTEXT OF SWTOR. Thanks for playing.... Sir (Did not want to offend )

Edited April 20, 2012 by CharleyDanger

[Skulltaffy]

X/ Its so frustrating debating you guys lol. Why are there no decimals? Because it is not the way the mechanic works.

 

2 ammo attack is 16.66%, your 100% right. Dose the 2 ammo attack use .66% of the 3rd ammo? No it does not. If the decimals were added then 2 ammo attacks would 3 ammo, follow. Im not twisting math to fit my argument. Im going off of what the game does in combat. I have made this point so many damn times, yet no one ever responds after I make it.

 

You are really gonna split hairs with me? The same means the exact same? Whatever, they are as balanced as balanced gets in an imperfect world. By no means should ppl be pleading "unbalanced" in the case of BH v Trooper.

 

EDIT:

 

I apologize, I should of just edited my OP instead of getting mad at you for not reading the previous posts.

 

So I'm just a sent stopping over looking at info for my alt but just wanted to throw out a quick correction with your math. You say that the ability would be using a third ammo if it counted the 0.66% but that is incorrect. 2 ammo is 16.66% of the of your resources. Therefore if we were to make the trooper use exactly 16% of his ammo is would be 1.92 ammo (0.16*12). So it takes an extra 0.08 ammo. You were looking at it backwards, you were saying that 2 ammo is equal to 16% and that if it were to take 16.66% it would have to take 0.66% of the third ammo when in reality it would have to take 92% of the second leave 8% of the second ammo.

[KiranK]

It's obvious they aren't the same. Truncating and rounding won't change that. Bioware is stupid for choosing numbers that are neither equal nor multiples of one another. Just change ammo to 100 and be done with it.

[Skulltaffy]

It's obvious they aren't the same. Truncating and rounding won't change that. Bioware is stupid for choosing numbers that are neither equal nor multiples of one another. Just change ammo to 100 and be done with it.

 

It would also allow them to move away from the 8% 16% and such model which would make it easier to fine tune resource management.

[CharleyDanger]

So I'm just a sent stopping over looking at info for my alt but just wanted to throw out a quick correction with your math. You say that the ability would be using a third ammo if it counted the 0.66% but that is incorrect. 2 ammo is 16.66% of the of your resources. Therefore if we were to make the trooper use exactly 16% of his ammo is would be 1.92 ammo (0.16*12). So it takes an extra 0.08 ammo. You were looking at it backwards, you were saying that 2 ammo is equal to 16% and that if it were to take 16.66% it would have to take 0.66% of the third ammo when in reality it would have to take 92% of the second leave 8% of the second ammo.

 

Your still looking at it wrong. You have to look at this in the context of combat. The 2 ammo attack can be used (Regen aside to make the it simple) 6 times before the resource is spent. The 16 heat attack can be used 6 times before the resource is spent. 6*16 = 96, leaving 4% of an attack left. Thats 4 heat for the BH and .66 ammo for the trooper. That means...4*6= 24 abilities would be have to be used before the extra ability would be available for either the BH or trooper. You would have to use you bar 4 times before the 4% came into play. So you can use 6, 2 ammo attacks right? Thats virtually 16% per attack.

 

On paper the BH has % of an advantage, but the fact is that even after 24 abilities the advantage is still in the fractions. Over 100 abilities would have to be used before the BH would see a 1 16 heat ability advantage.

[GitRDone]

First of all you cant use .5 or .625 of an ability in SWTOR. 4.5 = 4 abilities left to be used. 4.625 = 4 abilities left to be used. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Is 4 the same amount as 4? Ok, lets move on Mr. Mathematic. An obvious BH advantage you say? Its a 0.125 advantage in a game that rounds its numbers, good one lol.

 

Go back and read my post again. Did you see how I admitted to being sarcastic when I said the Trooper had an advantage? The advantage you see on paper does not actually exist when you take into account how the game actually plays. Does a Trooper 2 ammo ability (16.66%) ever use .66 of the 3rd ammo? Why not? because the entire ammo must be used in order for the ammo to be spent. This mechanic throws all decimals out the window.

 

I remember destroying your first posts back on page 1 or 2. You made all the same arguments, you said I was using misleading math, and I then used your math to show how little you understand. Where is your response to that? Or do you finally understand that 100s of abilities would have to be used by the BH in order to see a 1 ability advantage?

 

You've made nothing but unproven assertions. Furthermore, you didn't destroy my arguement, you changed the parameters of your arguement. My numbers given are still true. When I proved you wrong, you started making unproven assertions about rounding that are inaccurate as well.

 

He was convinced.

 

No he wasn't. He simply left when you starting posting blatant lies to back your statements.

 

Note how it is you responding and not him. 4 is the same as 4, he was smart enough to understand that lol. What is misleading is trying to fit decimals into a game that does not use them. 4.999999999 means you can get off 4 abilities. Please, try to prove me wrong.

 

So you use a made up story to prove my made up story wrong? I guess I can try to make it even more simple.

 

4.5 is not the same as 4.625, correct.

 

4.5 and 4.625 allow for 4 abilities to be used, correct.

 

4.5 * 8 = 36

4.625 * 8 = 37

That would be 1 extra usage per 8 skill rotations. My trooper has almost 60% damage reduction. You WILL use at least 8 rotations.

 

vir·tu·al·ly

virtually - in essence or effect but not in fact; "the strike virtually paralyzed the city"; "I'm virtually broke"

 

4.5 is virtually the same as 4.625 when you considered that the mechanic rounds down, never up.

 

Rounding isn't an issue when you consider a 45 second solo kill. Your assertion has yet to be proven, but your mathematics is clearly SHOWN TO BE FALSE. The other poster simply didn't have the math-fu to show the blatant lies.

 

Whether or not the game rounds for the purpose of resource usage is irrelevant since the true value will always be used to account for current resource amounts. If it DID round every 0.001 seconds, then you would be regenerating ammo at 1,000 since the game would give the the benefit of the rounding in every fractional second.

 

But that doesn't happen. Regardless of your marginal ammo resource gains within that 0.001 second, the total over any long duration of time is constant. In other words, the game may give you the extra ammo rounded up in that fraction of a second, but for the rest of that second, you get nothing. In the same way that mathematical partitioning of a curvature via rectangular area approximation yields the same result despite boundaries extending beyond the curvature.

 

So your made up story, where its a huge difference, does not fit into the context of the debate. My made up story, where there is virtually no difference, fits perfectly.

 

Your made up story has no quantification. It is a qualitative difference and one you completely dismiss within the story itself. That distinction appears to be lost upon you and the fact that you were incapable of grasping that extremely basic concept means that I will be wasting my time to argue further. Qualitation vs quantative comparisons within an analogy. 4% is 4%. Doesn't matter. I don't care enough to explain any further. This is the most amount of consultation I am prepared to give without receiving payment. Goodbye.

 

 

Responses in red

[CharleyDanger]

You've made nothing but unproven assertions. Furthermore, you didn't destroy my arguement, you changed the parameters of your arguement. My numbers given are still true. When I proved you wrong, you started making unproven assertions about rounding that are inaccurate as well.

 

Oh, It was destroyed. To refresh you memory you said...

 

Venting Heat Gives 50 heat. 50/16 = 3.125 Flame Bursts

Rechage Cell gives 6 energy. 6/2 = 3 Ion Pulses

Winner: BH

 

Wow, really?. 0.125 advantage. I would have to use vent heat 10 times to get a 1.25 heat advantage. I would have to use vent heat 128 times to get off an extra flame burst. Again, wow.

 

Why did you not tell people the actually effect of your math? Its because all you numbers mean nothing when you look at how the game actually plays. I know guys like you, super book smart, but not a lick of common sense lol.

 

You also said...

 

Trooper: 2 Ion Pulses away from losing Top Regen rate [(12-8)/2]

Bounty Hunter: 2.4375 Flame Bursts away from losing Top Regen rate [(39-0)/16]

Who has an easier time bursting down a healer?

Winner: BH

 

But....

 

Both BH and trooper would be under the top regen on the 3rd attack. You would have to go through a ton of rotations before seeing an advantage. You act as if the BH is getting extra abilities off left and right. The fact is that in an entire WZ a BH might get 2 or 3 extra abilities off, and thats over how many fights? 30, 40 maybe?

 

Yeah, destroyed.

 

4.5 * 8 = 36

4.625 * 8 = 37

That would be 1 extra usage per 8 skill rotations. My trooper has almost 60% damage reduction. You WILL use at least 8 rotations.

 

Are you purposely leaving out game mechanics to make your argument work? What about regen sir? Your 8 skill rotation turns into 40 skills with the regen. You would have to use the entire bar before you saw the 0.125 difference. I have a lvl 50 Vanguard and a lvl 44 Powertech. It is beyond rare to see my bar at 20% or below resources left. The regen is very quick even if you spam. Why are you misleading people? Please use all variables when debating. Sorry man, your argument just does not fit.

 

 

Rounding isn't an issue when you consider a 45 second solo kill. Your assertion has yet to be proven, but your mathematics is clearly SHOWN TO BE FALSE. The other poster simply didn't have the math-fu to show the blatant lies.

 

Whether or not the game rounds for the purpose of resource usage is irrelevant since the true value will always be used to account for current resource amounts. If it DID round every 0.001 seconds, then you would be regenerating ammo at 1,000 since the game would give the the benefit of the rounding in every fractional second.

 

But that doesn't happen. Regardless of your marginal ammo resource gains within that 0.001 second, the total over any long duration of time is constant. In other words, the game may give you the extra ammo rounded up in that fraction of a second, but for the rest of that second, you get nothing. In the same way that mathematical partitioning of a curvature via rectangular area approximation yields the same result despite boundaries extending beyond the curvature.

 

Does 2 ammo (16.66%) use .66% of the next ammo? Does a 2 ammo attack cost 3 ammo? My assertion is proven, end of discussion.

 

Your made up story has no quantification. It is a qualitative difference and one you completely dismiss within the story itself. That distinction appears to be lost upon you and the fact that you were incapable of grasping that extremely basic concept means that I will be wasting my time to argue further. Qualitation vs quantative comparisons within an analogy. 4% is 4%. Doesn't matter. I don't care enough to explain any further. This is the most amount of consultation I am prepared to give without receiving payment. Goodbye.

 

How about this story...

 

When it was put to the test

 

7th post down

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=378786&page=4

 

An actual in game test that shows a 1% difference in resource bars. All that mathematical calculation put aside, some common sense used, and an actual in game test is what proves you wrong. Like I said, ya book smart bro, take a breath and look at how things actually work when its not on paper.

 

For the record my qualitative story was explaining the definition of the word virtual. It had nothing to do with the mathematics of the game.

 

My quantitative arguments proved that there was virtually no difference. I had to use a qualitative story to explain to the meaning of virtually because they guy I was talking with did not understand it in quantitative terms. He said "well same means the same" Well, not always. Thats why the word virtual exists. If you could use the part of your brain that allowed you see things in context you would of understood this.

Edited April 20, 2012 by CharleyDanger

[GitRDone]

Oh, It was destroyed.

 

Lol. I never made ANY arguements. I only ever shown to everone that your numbers are lies. That you lie. How do you destroy an arguement that was never made? More lies.

 

If you could use the part of your brain that allowed you see things in context you would of understood this.

 

 

More insults each time I present clear evidence that you lie.

 

AND I went to your post, and it was more lies. Especially the endless crap about rounding which you based your entire new arguement.

 

".60 ammo x 4.5 secs = 2.7 ammo, and in game that = 3 ammo (The game will never use an ammo unless 100% of the ammo is used, on the flip the games gives an ammo as soon as 0.01% of the ammo is regened)"

This is a link to a screenshot that proves that your claims of rounding is a lie.

 

http://files1.guildlaunch.net/guild/library/248931/Bug_Testing.jpg

 

The Global cooldown is almost completely finished from an explosive surge. More than a full second has elapsed and the smoke from the ability has almost cleared. YET the ammo is still at 9. IF it was instantaneous regeneration as soon as 0.01% of ammo is regened, it would already be at ten, but 1 full second after the ability usage, still no ammo regenerated.

 

ANYONE with common sense, street smarts, could clearly see you have been continuously lying to everyone. You have 0 credibility. Your "proof" is anecdotal evidence comprised of outright lies.

 

More insults and more lies. That is all you ever do. I decided to respond because in the REAL world, I would never get away will calling a client on this sort of bull. But that is what it is. Bull. And I presented definitive CONCRETE proof of your endless lying.

[CharleyDanger]

Lol. I never made ANY arguements. I only ever shown to everone that your numbers are lies. That you lie. How do you destroy an arguement that was never made? More lies.

 

Right, no argument from you. I just made a point and you then made a counter point. Thats not an argument at all. I could post the definition of argument, but what's the point? I destroyed your applied math if that makes you feel better about the wording. You proved that I was wrong because I did not showing the 0.125 difference in the BH and Trooper. Your right, I should of showed ever decimal. The problem is, and here is where your serious lack of context comes into play, is that you proved my point right when you proved my math wrong. Yep, your right, advantage trooper..... Thats 128 skill use before the BH sees the Vent Heat advantage, and 40+ before the BH sees a single skill advantage with the Pulse Vs Burst. You are so wrapped up in the numbers that you fail to see what matters, and that is that there is virtual no advantage what so ever. Is it perfect? no. Could Bioware have done a better job? yes. Is a Trooper really at much of a disadvantage? Hell no. This whole Ammo Vs Heat thing is a nonissue, yet bad players point it out because its easier to blame a small mechanical difference.

 

 

AND I went to your post, and it was more lies. Especially the endless crap about rounding which you based your entire new arguement.

 

New argument? The link showed a mathematical break down of an in game test using the BH and Trooper. The test proved that after X amount of use the BH and Trooper had the same amount of resources left. Again, context context context. You went to the end of the post and found something that me and you had not talked about yet. I do not know, Im not trying to insult you, your a smart guy, but you have to work on the comprehension part of your debating.

 

This is a link to a screenshot that proves that your claims of rounding is a lie.

For all intents and purposes the ammo does regen when ammo breaks 0.01. I have done this test in game, and when the GCD finishes the ammo will be there. Ammo regens at 0.60/sec. Well you can only do attacks every 1.5 secs. In game testing proves that 4.5 secs gives 3 ammo back at top regen. It should only give 2.7 ammo according to your math. Does it give 3 or 2.7? I rest my case. Again, your caught up on that fact that it does not regen at exactly 0.01, but it does not matter. What can you do while the GCD is on CD? Nothing. By the time you can actually use an attack your ammo is there. Is my math exact and perfect? Nope. Im sorry, I should take the time to get it right. It has been lazy of me not to. Still, I have proven that in game the difference are merely virtual, and that the game rounds to make the two resources equal. This is a proven fact, period.

 

More insults and more lies. That is all you ever do. I decided to respond because in the REAL world, I would never get away will calling a client on this sort of bull. But that is what it is. Bull. And I presented definitive CONCRETE proof of your endless lying.

 

Whatever man, debate or don't. If you feel it's a dead horse then step away. Don't say "Im done" and then come back and try to keep it going. At the end of the day its just a disagreement, its just a forum back and forth. You think Im lying because I did not add 0.whatever. I think you are using 0.whatever on paper to prove an advantage that does not exist in real life. Your saying use your calculator, Im saying use your common sense. Im sorry for the insults, I should not of made it personal.

 

Do some in game testing. If you can come up with something Im down to hear it. Im not saying Im 100% right at this point, but everything I have done in game says the advantage is so minor it means nothing. So far the in game stuff says my math is right.

Edited April 21, 2012 by CharleyDanger

[GitRDone]

Right, no argument from you. I just made a point and you then made a counter point. Thats not an argument at all. I could post the definition of argument, but what's the point? I destroyed your applied math if that makes you feel better about the wording. You proved that I was wrong because I did not showing the 0.125 difference in the BH and Trooper. Your right, I should of showed ever decimal. The problem is, and here is where your serious lack of context comes into play, is that you proved my point right when you proved my math wrong. Yep, your right, advantage trooper..... Thats 128 skill use before the BH sees the Vent Heat advantage, and 40+ before the BH sees a single skill advantage with the Pulse Vs Burst. You are so wrapped up in the numbers that you fail to see what matters, and that is that there is virtual no advantage what so ever. Is it perfect? no. Could Bioware have done a better job? yes. Is a Trooper really at much of a disadvantage? Hell no. This whole Ammo Vs Heat thing is a nonissue, yet bad players point it out because its easier to blame a small mechanical difference.

 

There was no arguement. I made logical demonstrations with clearly shown evidence proving your testimony to be inaccurate. You CONCEDED to the points that I made being 100% true and then proceeded to claim that my points had no relevance. That isn't arguement. Your "counter arguements" don't actually address the MASSIVE flaws in your testimony that my statements point out.

 

40+ pulses before the BH sees a single skill advantage in Pulse vs Burst? Guess what? My trooper does over 400,000 damage in a warzone. That's 200 ion pulses. 4% of that would be 8 additional Ion pulses per warzone. Enough for 2 additional kills. Not a big deal for me. But a VERY big deal for new troopers just starting out and still wearing recruit gear. A VERY big deal when they suck due to being new and are struggling to get their daily 3 pvp wins.

 

It doesn't matter, you say? That's an opinion. Not a fact. Stating your personal opinion on the matter does not qualify as presenting a rational arguement. You made a bunch of opinions and your own fabricated assertions.

 

Where did you even get the idea that the game rounds the numbers as you said? Did you present a source? Citation of any kind? FRAPS recordings? Any kind of documentation? Nope. You simply made it up and presented it as fact. Seriously, tell me where you got this information.

 

 

New argument? The link showed a mathematical break down of an in game test using the BH and Trooper. The test proved that after X amount of use the BH and Trooper had the same amount of resources left.

 

No, it doesn't. BH start regenerating IMMEDIATELY. So for channeled abilities that are interrupted, BH can immediately use another ability provided he has since regenerated enough. For abilities with alacrity that have fractional seconds in their activation times? BH advantage.

 

For a BH and a trooper facing off?

A completely heated BH has to wait 8 seconds before using Flame burst.

A completely depleted trooper has to wait 8.33 seconds before using Ion pulse.

 

BH gets to shoot first.

 

Again, context context context. You went to the end of the post and found something that me and you had not talked about yet. I do not know, Im not trying to insult you, your a smart guy, but you have to work on the comprehension part of your debating.

 

Context is you making claims without evidence. I even proved your experiment to be a lie.

 

For all intents and purposes the ammo does regen when ammo breaks 0.01. I have done this test in game, and when the GCD finishes the ammo will be there. Ammo regens at 0.60/sec. Well you can only do attacks every 1.5 secs. In game testing proves that 4.5 secs gives 3 ammo back at top regen. It should only give 2.7 ammo according to your math. Does it give 3 or 2.7? I rest my case. Again, your caught up on that fact that it does not regen at exactly 0.01, but it does not matter. What can you do while the GCD is on CD? Nothing. By the time you can actually use an attack your ammo is there. Is my math exact and perfect? Nope. Im sorry, I should take the time to get it right. It has been lazy of me not to. Still, I have proven that in game the difference are merely virtual, and that the game rounds to make the two resources equal. This is a proven fact, period.

 

No, it isn't. You cited your own testimony AFTER I proved your testimony was a fabrication. That "experiment" you did? Has no documentation and proof other than your own words, which I proved was untrue.

 

All other classes regenerate energy/force while still under global cooldown.

 

Moreso, you made another statement that is untrue. It is not possible for you to complete 3 attacks in exactly 4.5 seconds. Not simply due to human reaction times being just below 0.1 seconds. There is also network latency being about 45 milliseconds. Mathematically, you could not have completed 3 skill uses in less than 3 * (1.5 + 0.1 seeing the GCD + 0.1 reacting to the GCD + 0.045 signal reaching your computer + 0.045 signal sent back ) seconds. If you had record setting human reflexes and live reasonably close to SWTOR servers, you spent 5.37 seconds doing that experiment - enough time to regenerate 3 ammo with time to spare.

 

Just because it SEEMED like 4.5 seconds to you, and you THOUGHT that your testimony made for a sound experiment, does not make it accurate. Your test actually proves ME to be correct (If the game rounds up, you should have regenerated 4 ammo in 5.37 seconds instead of 3). However, you already made up your mind before starting the experiment.

 

Seriously, who cites their OWN TESTIMONY to defend against a credibility issue? ESPECIALLY after poof of said testimony being a fabrication.

 

Whatever man, debate or don't. If you feel it's a dead horse then step away. Don't say "Im done" and then come back and try to keep it going.

 

People generally have difficulties backing down when you make insinuations about their brain function - repeatedly I might add. This is called common sense.

 

Moreover, we aren't debating. You never address any of the points made. You answer fact with opinion. Then when you started insulting people, I went out of my way to disprove your statements.

 

 

A full BH vs a full trooper.

 

Legend

BH 0 heat, Tr 12 Ammo. Hit number

Current Heat + heat added - regen

Current Ammo - ammo used + regen

 

FIGHT!

 

BH 0 heat, Tr 12 ammo: Trade hits x1.

BH 0+16-7.5

Tr 12-2+0.9

 

BH 8.5, Tr 10.9: Trade hits x2.

BH 8.5+16-7.5

Tr 10.9-2+0.9

 

BH 17, Tr 9.8: Trade hits x3.

BH 17+16-7.5

Tr 9.8-2+0.2+0.56 (0.36 regen for 0.555 seconds and 0.6 regen for remainder since trooper falls below top regen threshhold after 3 attacks)

 

BH 25.5, Tr 8.56: Trade hits x4. *****BH advantage after only 4 hits*****

BH 25+16-2-4.16 (BH spends 0.66 seconds in middle tier regen before returning to top tier regen)

Tr 8.56-2+0.54 (Trooper now spends his entire time in middle tier regen)

 

BH 34.4, Tr 7.1: Trade hits x5.

BH 34.4+16-4.5 (BH spends entire duration in middle tier regen)

Tr 7.1-2+0.54

 

BH 45.9, Tr 5.64: Trade hits x6.

BH 45.9+16-4.5

Tr 5.64-2+0.54

 

BH 57.4, Tr 4.18: Trade hits x7.

BH 57.4+16-4.5

Tr 4.18-2+0.36 (Trooper enters bottom regen after using ability and STAYS there forever)

 

BH 68.9, Tr 2.54: Trade hits x8.

BH 68.9+16-3 (BH enters bottom regen after using ability and stays there)

Tr 2.54-2+0.36

 

BH 81.9, Tr 0.9: Trade hits x9.

BH 81.9+16-3

Tr 0.9-0+0.36 (TROOPER IS OUT OF AMMO.)

 

BH gets to use a 1300 flame burst + 500 damage burning damage @ 100% proc.*

Trooper gets to use 500 hammer shot damage.*

 

*Damage values based on what my level 50 trooper does

 

If both players are between 15-16k hit points, which is MOST people, there will never be a 10th shot because the fight is already over at the 9th shot. The BH kills the trooper in round 9, having dealt 16,200 damage. The trooper will have dealt 14,900 damage, just leaving the BH alive barely. The BH has just enough time to rest up to heal before the last ticks of the DOT.

 

Trooper respawns with full ammo. BH has rested up to full ammo. Every time they duel, BH will win. Same result every time. It's just 4%, but it means 100% victory.

 

The BH can have 14,901 hit points and the trooper can have 16,199 hit points. BH still kills trooper in round 9. This 4% difference means a 1,298 hit point discrepancy.

[hadoken]

The thing you're continually missing is you don't regen or use fractions of ammo or heat, it's always 1. This scripted encounter above could never happen the way you have it portrayed.

 

Mathematically there's a theoretical imbalance, realistically it doesn't exist.

[CharleyDanger]

There was no arguement. I made logical demonstrations with clearly shown evidence proving your testimony to be inaccurate.

 

ar·gu·ment/ˈärgyəmənt/ A reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong

 

Really guy? You made me post the definition lol. I said ammo and heat are the same. You said it was not and gave...

 

A reason with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea (ammo is the same as heat) is wrong

 

I dont know what else to say about this argument about what an argument is lol

 

40+ pulses before the BH sees a single skill advantage in Pulse vs Burst? Guess what? My trooper does over 400,000 damage in a warzone. That's 200 ion pulses. 4% of that would be 8 additional Ion pulses per warzone. Enough for 2 additional kills. Not a big deal for me. But a VERY big deal for new troopers just starting out and still wearing recruit gear. A VERY big deal when they suck due to being new and are struggling to get their daily 3 pvp wins.

 

First of all you just admitted that the difference is not a big deal to you! Thanks for agreeing with me lol.

 

But you say it is a big deal for lesser players. Ok, well lesser players would do about half the damage as you. So its about a 1 kill per WZ difference. 1 kill, really? This is what you call a "big deal" ? And are WZs won and lost based on a 1 or 2 kills? Please, make a thread saying that WZs are won and lost based on 1 or 2 kills. See what feedback you get lol. Again, you have left me speechless.

 

It doesn't matter, you say? That's an opinion. Not a fact. Stating your personal opinion on the matter does not qualify as presenting a rational arguement. You made a bunch of opinions and your own fabricated assertions.

 

Where did you even get the idea that the game rounds the numbers as you said? Did you present a source? Citation of any kind? FRAPS recordings? Any kind of documentation? Nope. You simply made it up and presented it as fact. Seriously, tell me where you got this information.

 

My source? Playing the game and using basic math is my source.

 

3 Pulses = 6 ammo

 

3 Pulses = 4.5 secs

 

.60 ammo x 4.5 secs = 2.7 ammo

 

6 ammo - 3 ammo = 3 ammo used (game rounds)

 

Where I got the idea that the game rounds is when I tested this out in game. Log on right now and see what happens when you use three pulse in a row. According to you the break down would be

 

 

3 Pulses = 6 ammo

 

3 Pulses = 4.5 secs

 

.60 ammo x 4.5 secs = 2.7 ammo

 

6 ammo - 2.7 ammo = 3.3 ammo used (exact math fanatic)

 

I have tested this in game, and after the 3rd GCD of the 3rd pulse (4.5 secs total) a trooper will have... wait for it... 3 Ammo. Its a undeniable truth that the game rounds.

 

My problem is that this was clearly explained before. You say "Seriously, tell me where you got this information" I told you about this in game test lol. It was clear cut in a previous post. You need to slow down and take the time to comprehend.

 

 

For a BH and a trooper facing off?

A completely heated BH has to wait 8 seconds before using Flame burst.

A completely depleted trooper has to wait 8.33 seconds before using Ion pulse.

 

A fraction of a second? This is your argument? That the BH can be a fraction of a second faster? You have proven my point once again, thank you.

 

Lets recap shall we.

 

You admit that you personal do not think the difference is a big deal

 

Lesser players and fresh 50 Troopers are missing out on 1 kill per WZ

 

And in the case of BH vs Trooper in a head to head match, the BH (Only when both have 0% resources) can attack a fraction of a sec quicker

 

I did not even finish reading your post. You have made my point better than even I can. You were so focused on finding the minor decimals that would prove me "technically" wrong, that you ended up proving me virtually right lol. There is no real difference between the trooper and BH, and it was you of all people that proved it.

 

I bow out, and unlike you, Im really done talking about this.

Edited April 26, 2012 by CharleyDanger