The Status Quo Has Been Restored

[mefit]

There's a difference between being "Superwoman" and "Dying like that one girl in a Jason movie" (see wut I did thar?). She made Mara into a complete and utter moron.

Is she suppose to die bad*** because of what she was ? I am sorry but alot people fold and become defenseless when you are doomed and no escape. Mara Jade was no god and not to mention she went through alot of ups and downs . I imagine also being in that position also had alot to do with it. I mean she was Jacen's aunt by marriage , and seen him grow .

The novel "Sacrifice" was about Jacen needing to make a sacrifice (hence the title) to fully and completely embrace the Darkside, all other benefits or consequences of said sacrifice were completely secondary. Mara was not a sacrifice for Jacen, the book actually talks about him not having any significant feelings for her. The only reason Mara was Jacen's sacrifice is because Traviss personally didn't like her. That's it.

So your saying that because the book was named Sacrifice that it was totally about that and nothing else. Kinda small thinking , I like to think well rounded and wider than most I guess :/

Thanks for pointing out my own opinion to me, I never would have recognized it without your help.

Np glad to be of service.

 

My reply Red Like the topic !

[Rayla_Felana]

My reply Red Like the topic !

 

Wait so before you claim you have never read the books, now you are stating you have? contradiction thar don't ya think?

[mefit]

No it is fact, you really think LucasBooks care about what they allow to be published? you have gotten the canon system completely wrong, Leland Chee and his team decide what goes in the holocron, which is how things become canon, like light side or dark side endings, they decide, the publishers don't care, they purposefully publish the infinities stories which are all non-canon without a second glance.

 

Leland Chee himself stated there is absolutely no way to resolve what is canon now regarding those series of books because Karen Traviss never bothered to do her homework, so we as fans must try and establish or resolve such issues in canon, it happens more times than you think, defend her all you like, but she messed up canon and it is a fact, I don't care what you think, I don't care what I think for that matter, I care for what is fact, and that is fact, if Leland Chee himself says it, it is pretty much as true as it gets.

 

Perhaps you could read New Jedi Order and then read Legacy of the Force and see the blatant contradictions.

 

Before the books go out they are edited by a Editor, they get paid to look up Backstory / history/ so called canons / and grammar lol . Before a book gets "Published , all those errors are fixed . If they were issues with Canon, you should be looking at the Editor and Publishing company for letting Karen write not 1 book but accouple at that .

 

PT has alot of changes in it that would make OT seem wrong . Being Lucas was full on with both movies , who do we blame there . I think you guys are blowing the Karen thing way out of context .

[mefit]

Wait so before you claim you have never read the books, now you are stating you have? contradiction thar don't ya think?

 

I have alot of StarWars and StarTrek books and I will be the first to admit that being a father and a gamer leave little time to read every book .

I said I have not read all her workings, putting words in my mouth "Thar" huh?

 

I try to buy books and games to help support the companies I love , Karen write good in my opinion and it was enough to get more than 1 book published .

 

How many do you and you group have Published I wonder ?

Edited March 26, 2012 by mefit

[Rayla_Felana]

Before the books go out they are edited by a Editor, they get paid to look up Backstory / history/ so called canons / and grammar lol . Before a book gets "Published , all those errors are fixed . If they were issues with Canon, you should be looking at the Editor and Publishing company for letting Karen write not 1 book but accouple at that .

 

PT has alot of changes in it that would make OT seem wrong . Being Lucas was full on with both movies , who do we blame there . I think you guys are blowing the Karen thing way out of context .

 

Yeh to fix grammatical errors, etc... etc... make the book more readable.

 

For the last time Leland Chee and his team are the ones that write canon, stop assuming yourself right, because you aren't, you are very blatantly wrong.

 

No it doesn't, as ALL of those things were either updated and changed in the OT, or they have been flat-out shown to be consistent in story, they explain these things.

 

How would you know if the Karen Traviss situation is being blown out of context or not? you haven't even read the series to have an opinion on the matter.

[Aximand]

My reply Red Like the topic !

 

I'm just going to ask if you've ever read the Legacy of the Force series, and if you have, if you'd read any of the other series that prominently feature both Jaina and Mara before that. Please answer honestly.

[Rayla_Felana]

I said I have not read all her workings, putting words in my mouth "Thar" huh?

 

I try to buy books and games to help support the companies I love , Karen write good in my opinion and it was enough to get more than 1 book published .

 

How many do you and you group have Published I wonder ?

 

You are acting as if you know exactly what happened in that scene, when earlier you claimed you didn't, want me to quote them? or are you going to go and attempt to edit them out like earlier? if so I can just pull them out of what I have already quoted.

 

It would have been fine if she didn't ignore canon.

 

Ah now you are falling back on the poor argument of, 'why don't you try doing it better'? okay I'll go ahead and prove that argument fundamentally wrong and get it out of the way early.

 

She wrote a book, a product, we criticize it as customers and point out the major flaws, that is how these things work, simple.

[Invictos]

No, she didn't. She specifically had a personal infatuation with Manadalorians and Boba Fett (admitted by her and by the authors of LotF that she worked with) and had a personal and irrational hatred (in real life mind you) of Jedi and Sith. She felt that the Jedi and Sith were a reference glorifying the ideal of the Aryan concept of genetic superiority.

 

So instead she made the Mandalorians Batman.

 

[snip]

 

She did a lot more than write books. She compared fans of the Jedi and the Sith to fans of the Nazi party. She was rude and childish in her behavior and had almost no grasp on verisimilitude of continuity due to her ignorance of the canon. She was also quite proud of her ignorance.

 

As someone who doesn't really care for the EU in general, I have to agree with the above sentiment. A month or two ago, I spent an unhealthy amount of time reading up on Karen Traviss (having been turned on to the issue on this forum). It's a fascinating subject, in a gotta-watch-the-train-wreck sorta way.

 

The books themselves are almost secondary to the author's own statements (both provoked and unsolicited), which bespeak an attitude that's really unfortunate in any writer of fiction, much less in a writer tasked with the safekeeping of a well established franchise. She destroyed her own credibility, and so -- justly or not -- her work is vulnerable to the harsh criticisms that, ironically, many of her statements were probably intended to address:

 

• She exaggerated her own military experience, which by itself isn't a cardinal sin, but when you aggressively cast yourself as an expert in soldiering, you'd best have more than merchant-marine-equivalent experience. (links here here and here)
  
• She openly and proudly admitted that she doesn't read fiction, including the Star Wars fiction that comprises the framework of her own work. I don't know about you, but from where I'm sitting, knowing your own job is kinda important, even if the research required is unpleasant. (Yes, I'm aware that Lucas' corporate story mavens fed her continuity cues, that she had access to a encyclopedia-like repository of SW Lore; still, the fact remains.)
  
• She has an obvious and impassioned dislike for the Jedi. (It's almost comical how self-contradictory the linked rant is -- lampooning fans for harboring unhealthy attachments to fictional figures, while at the same time revealing her own irrational hatred of those same fictional figures.)

 

Most if not all good novels have messages or themes. If Karen Traviss had set out with the intention of toning down the Jedi, and/or pointing out by contrast that there are other extraordinarily capable figures in the Star Wars universe, then that would have been one thing. But what she actually did was to hit her readers over the head, repeatedly, with the blunt object of her own bias/idealogy/fantasy.

 

In other words, the problem isn't just that the Mandalorians are super-human in her fiction; it's that her Mandalorians are surrounded by a magical field that renders everyone else idiotic. In dialogues between Mandalorians and various others, the Mandalorian viewpoint is presented as unassailable not through artful scene-setting, but through heavy-handed writer's fiat. Her fiction is Star Wars-flavored straw manning of all things not Mandalorian. (There are about a bajillion examples in YodaKenobi's review about halfway down the page at this link.)

 

Now, obviously, none of the above is important in the grand scheme of things. As the saying goes, "the more trivial the subject matter, the more acrimonious the debate." Perversely, that's what makes miniature controversies like this one so fascinating to people like me. If you enjoy Karen Traviss' books, then no one can tell you you're wrong, but the picture that emerges of her, both as author and thin-skinned public figure, is almost irrefutably unflattering.

 

FWIW, I thought Mandalorians were plenty cool (and strong) enough back when the original Knights of the Old Republic essentially invented them. YMMV.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Invictos

[mefit]

I'm just going to ask if you've ever read the Legacy of the Force series, and if you have, if you'd read any of the other series that prominently feature both Jaina and Mara before that. Please answer honestly.

 

I find you callout insulting but here in order what I have read, needless to say I have all her books but 2-3 , I cannot remember and I am not going to look up her listing

 

 

Hard Contact

Order 66

501st ("haven't finished")

Sacrifice

Revelation

The Clone Wars ("haven't finished")

 

and I read

Anvil Gate ("gears of war book")

 

I think a few others , I am not going to look at all the dates to see if I got them in order , Sacrifice and Revelation are the two books I have from legacy , I think I have the third somewhere but I am unsure at this moment and I do not think I read it or atleast I do not remember .

 

I am not a extreme StarWars fan, I like many other movies and books outside of it !

[Aximand]

I find you callout insulting but here in order what I have read, needless to say I have all her books but 2-3 , I cannot remember and I am not going to look up her listing

 

 

Hard Contact

Order 66

501st ("haven't finished")

Sacrifice

Revelation

The Clone Wars ("haven't finished")

 

and I read

Anvil Gate ("gears of war book")

 

I think a few others , I am not going to look at all the dates to see if I got them in order , Sacrifice and Revelation are the two books I have from legacy , I think I have the third somewhere but I am unsure at this moment and I do not think I read it or atleast I do not remember .

 

I am not a extreme StarWars fan, I like many other movies and books outside of it !

So you haven't read any of the New Jedi Order books (that heavily feature Mara and Jaina and a lot of their development as characters) yet you think you understand what's going on here? That's almost insulting.

[Invictos]

I might just open up YodaKenobi's review and let him read that. Actually, that's not a bad idea.

 

Well, I would but the Jedi Council forums are being upgraded. Damn

 

Heh, yeah. Had to use Google's cache to supply the link in my previous post.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Invictos

[mefit]

So you haven't read any of the New Jedi Order books (that heavily feature Mara and Jaina and a lot of their development as characters) yet you think you understand what's going on here? That's almost insulting.

 

Aximand your opinions are just like anyones , it holds the same ground as anyones . I have read enough to think Karen is a good writer . It is insulting for you to callout and tell me I have no grounds on my opinion like you .

[mefit]

You are acting as if you know exactly what happened in that scene, when earlier you claimed you didn't, want me to quote them? or are you going to go and attempt to edit them out like earlier? if so I can just pull them out of what I have already quoted.

 

It would have been fine if she didn't ignore canon.

 

Ah now you are falling back on the poor argument of, 'why don't you try doing it better'? okay I'll go ahead and prove that argument fundamentally wrong and get it out of the way early.

 

She wrote a book, a product, we criticize it as customers and point out the major flaws, that is how these things work, simple.

 

She is a writer , her books are canon. Life goes on after those books . You could have just ignored them .

Nothing poor about my argument . Writing a book is harder than people think and it doesn't just get passes just to make money . As many books as she has done , she must be somewhat good to be selling enough to get to write more than one .

If I am correct she has over 8 Starwars books and plus alot of short stories out there made for StarWars . So in the end calling her bad is just your opinion .

[Rayla_Felana]

She is a writer , her books are canon. Life goes on after those books . You could have just ignored them .

Nothing poor about my argument . Writing a book is harder than people think and it doesn't just get passes just to make money . As many books as she has done , she must be somewhat good to be selling enough to get to write more than one .

If I am correct she has over 8 Starwars books and plus alot of short stories out there made for StarWars . So in the end calling her bad is just your opinion .

 

I didn't call her bad, I stated the fact she ignored canon, when plenty of other authors have actually done that job in far more complex canonical situations, see James Luceno.

 

I could care less about her, apart from the fact she wrecked the NJO era canon, then when called out on it maliciously attacked those same people in a completely uncalled for fashion and then admitted she didn't care.

 

Simple as that.

[Aximand]

Aximand your opinions are just like anyones , it holds the same ground as anyones . I have read enough to think Karen is a good writer . It is insulting for you to callout and tell me I have no grounds on my opinion like you .

 

You're arguing a point from a completely uninformed position concerning the greater Canon butchery that Traviss perpetuated. From that standpoint, your opinion is actually invalid, because you obviously don't know all the facts.

[mefit]

I didn't call her bad, I stated the fact she ignored canon, when plenty of other authors have actually done that job in far more complex canonical situations, see James Luceno.

She didn't ignore canon. I don't care or have to look at James Luceno or anyone else . Its all opinions and the fact she was allowed to write as many books as she was for StarWars defeats this entire Argument of Opinions on her . Thats all it is

 

I could care less about her, apart from the fact she wrecked the NJO era canon, then when called out on it maliciously attacked those same people in a completely uncalled for fashion and then admitted she didn't care.

Again Opinions

Simple as that.

 

Simple as that !

[Moitteva]

Hello Everyone,

 

We have removed some posts that were argumentative and off-topic for the thread subject. While we realize that this topic is a heated one for many, we ask that discussion please remain constructive, whether positive or negative. Criticizing the opinions and attitudes of other forum members rarely leads to constructive discussion.

 

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Thank you for keeping this discussion constructive and respectful.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Moitteva

[TKMaster]

I would like to say, that as per the title of the thread, i was always taught that the status quo was to be destroyed as to not allow stagnation.

 

Wich is very much what the EU has become, Jedi > all = stagnation.

 

I was much more enticed in the EU when every jedi wasnt Obi-Wan / Yoda / Mace Windu rolled up into one super being, when these jedi were the exception and not the rule. Qui-gon wished that it was true that no one can kill a jedi...he finally got his wish.

[Guildrum]

Since Obi-Wan sliced off the arm of the guy threatening Luke Skywalker in Mos Eisley, Star Wars has always been about the Jedi and Sith. The Princess, Wookie and the Smuggler were all supporting cast for the Jedi. That's the base idea of Star Wars, and so, when people get interested in factions beyond the Jedi and Sith, they see, "These guys don't stand a chance."

 

So, you have two routes that were taken, which I like to classify under the "Trooper" Route, that is the route of strong men, who do not use the force, are using tactics, quick wits and a good dose of luck to become almost-equals or even equals with force users. (The way that the Clone Wars Series depicts Clone Troopers is one of my favorites.), Troopers (Non Storm ones, Clone ones and SWTOR ones), Smugglers, Bounty Hunters, and Mandalorians pre-Traviss seem to fall under this classification. The "Mando" route is the route described here, where they are given tools and methods that make them even strongER than the aforementioned "Super Soldiers" of Star Wars. This simply replaces the Jedi and Sith Supersoldiers with Mandalorian Supersoldiers of Star Wars, and casual Star Wars fans who like the Jedi and Sith are surprised by this, as well as die-hard Star Wars fans.

[DarthMalt]

Some of the changes to the Mandalorians in the Clone Wars show were interesting, but like all things, easy to fit in the greater framework. Did give me ideas for a D6 bounty hunter' background after reading about it on Wookiepedia. And remember, ever Fandalorian will have rolled at least one bounty hunter alt on each server they play.

[BrandonSM]

Simple as that !

 

I didn't read the past page but if your talking about "her" as in Karen Traviss.... she completely ignored canon...

[Mirdthestrill]

Aximand, Rayla...I'm getting really frustrated here. You are stating OPINIONS. Your OPINION is that she ignored canon. My OPINION is that she didn't. I can make the case for my side. You can make the case for yours. But in the end, it's impossible to state an OPINION as a fact and let it go as such. Please stop trying, and we can let this thread die.

 

Why was this thread even created? Honestly, what was Walsh trying to accomplish besides gloating over the changes and restarting the debate?

[BrandonSM]

Aximand, Rayla...I'm getting really frustrated here. You are stating OPINIONS. Your OPINION is that she ignored canon. My OPINION is that she didn't. I can make the case for my side. You can make the case for yours. But in the end, it's impossible to state an OPINION as a fact and let it go as such. Please stop trying, and we can let this thread die.

 

Why was this thread even created? Honestly, what was Walsh trying to accomplish besides gloating over the changes and restarting the debate?

 

 

How did she not ignore canon? Explain to me that.

[Rayla_Felana]

Aximand, Rayla...I'm getting really frustrated here. You are stating OPINIONS. Your OPINION is that she ignored canon. My OPINION is that she didn't. I can make the case for my side. You can make the case for yours. But in the end, it's impossible to state an OPINION as a fact and let it go as such. Please stop trying, and we can let this thread die.

 

Why was this thread even created? Honestly, what was Walsh trying to accomplish besides gloating over the changes and restarting the debate?

 

The fact is that Karen traviss ignored canon when writing her novel, accept that already, it is a blatant fact, if you cannot accept it you are simply ignoring a flat-out fact to support your argument.

[ProfessorWalsh]

That is opinion, and her work is canon . So its something that you can ignore but her work is approved and calling it out is like calling out those who approved her right all the way to Lucas .

 

While her work is canon, her work has also been undone in canon. Also, no, George Lucas never approved her. In fact, following her actions during the writing of LotF she was fired from writing Star Wars books. She was given the chance to either step down or be fired. She stepped down.