Maxkardinal Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 This is more 'game expirience' thread than 'overpowered/underpowered'. I have no problems with damage output, so i dont care about damage nerfs, or 'rebalance', call it whatever you want. Damage is fine IMO. I have problem with 'in combat' mobilty and utility. And mostly because this class dont have both. When your Cloacking Screen on CD there is no way you can get back on your target or quickly switch when you need to burst/disable specific target. Im not talking abut 1v1, im talking about cordinated team fights where are no udergeared people and where healers are under guard and where positioning is happening. In pugs im ok. Even in Huttball. But IMO there is no place for a curret operative/scoundrell in 8 ppl team, simply because i dont see how this class can execute tactic moves when its in combat. Especially compearing with other applicants for dps spot. 'Sprint' and any variation of 'shadowstep' that what we need. So my question is - is this ever going to happen? Or Operatives and Scoundrels at the moment are 'working as intended'?(I dont know why im so naive to hope to get answer from BW employees, but anyway, ill try). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daxx-Vosh Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Thing is that a well played Operative/Scoundrel NOW (not talking after 1.2) can completely shut down most classes beside tanks even those if they are bads or you outgear your enemy. You have alot of crowd control abilities which can be used as gap closers... IF you really want to get another gap-closer like sprint and or shadowstep you need to give up something in exchange. Problem right now is that the tank specced shadows / sins are close to OP that's why people forget alot about this fact... a Shadow can't heal and a Shadow is a clothy .... you have medium armor and can heal yourselves... Imagine the following szenario when Shadows "could" heal: Node defending Shadow, keeps fighting to the bitter end, sprints / LoS heals back up, engages again. That'd be just crazy stupid OP Edited March 25, 2012 by Daxx-Vosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ich_Bin Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Thing is that a well played Operative/Scoundrel NOW (not talking after 1.2) can completely shut down most classes beside tanks even those if they are bads or you outgear your enemy. You have alot of crowd control abilities which can be used as gap closers... IF you really want to get another gap-closer like sprint and or shadowstep you need to give up something in exchange. Wrong. Operatives don't have more CC than Assassins have. On a side note: The Operative's stun ability is melee, the Assassins stun ability has 30m range. See someone run over the fire in Huttball from far away, just press one button and stun him to death. Also: Operative's CC abilities give more resolve than Assassins CCs do. Problem right now is that the tank specced shadows / sins are close to OP that's why people forget alot about this fact... a Shadow can't heal and a Shadow is a clothy .... you have medium armor and can heal yourselves... Imagine the following szenario when Shadows "could" heal: Node defending Shadow, keeps fighting to the bitter end, sprints / LoS heals back up, engages again. That'd be just crazy stupid OP Wrong again. Tank specced Assassins CAN heal. They don't need to spend energy for it, and they also don't need to LoS. They can heal WHILE fighting. And their heals cannot get interrupted. Also the fact that the Assassin is a "clothy" doesn't mean much. Even when dps-specced their survivabilty is still way better than that of an Operative due to sprint, knockback and better defensive cooldowns. On topic: Depends on how you define "playable". You will still be able to kill players that aren't guarded and don't know how to counter you. However against any competent player/team you will have a very hard time. An Assassin can do everything that you can do, only much better. Right now when I see a DPS Operative in my team during a warzone I immediately think "Okay that's not great to have him in our team. Any other class would be better.". It sucks, but it is the truth. Edited March 25, 2012 by Ich_Bin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daxx-Vosh Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 You should carefully read my post before raging... however you turn it my point stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxkardinal Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 You have alot of crowd control abilities which can be used as gap closers... You just scored critical. Melee and 10 feet range CC as a gap closer. Bravo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iloveicarly Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 This is more 'game expirience' thread than 'overpowered/underpowered'. I have no problems with damage output, so i dont care about damage nerfs, or 'rebalance', call it whatever you want. Damage is fine IMO. I have problem with 'in combat' mobilty and utility. And mostly because this class dont have both. When your Cloacking Screen on CD there is no way you can get back on your target or quickly switch when you need to burst/disable specific target. Im not talking abut 1v1, im talking about cordinated team fights where are no udergeared people and where healers are under guard and where positioning is happening. In pugs im ok. Even in Huttball. But IMO there is no place for a curret operative/scoundrell in 8 ppl team, simply because i dont see how this class can execute tactic moves when its in combat. Especially compearing with other applicants for dps spot. 'Sprint' and any variation of 'shadowstep' that what we need. So my question is - is this ever going to happen? Or Operatives and Scoundrels at the moment are 'working as intended'?(I dont know why im so naive to hope to get answer from BW employees, but anyway, ill try). yhere not OP or underpowered they needed a nerf anyway.people need tips from pros on how to pla them there nt weak and a few level 50 OP will help out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ich_Bin Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) You should carefully read my post before raging... however you turn it my point stands. Erm...no. I disproved each of your points. You are either clueless or in denial. Edited March 25, 2012 by Ich_Bin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ich_Bin Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 yhere not OP or underpowered they needed a nerf anyway.people need tips from pros on how to pla them there nt weak and a few level 50 OP will help out Yes I have a pro tip for Operative players: Spec into healing or reroll another class. For further information read quotes below: Hi. My name is Xavory. I have a rank 67, fully Remodded Battlemaster Operative w/2p Rakata bonus(Xavory). I also have a Rank 65, fully Remodded Battemaster Shadow(Xavori). I play in one of the top pvp group/teams on the server, and most anyone on Jung Ma will tell you I can handle myself 1vX on either toon. So I have a pretty good perspective on this topic. Here are my thoughts: There is NOTHING my Operative can do that my Shadow can't do much better, including Burst damage, outside of healing of course. Speed, Utility, survivability, dps, burst...my Shadow can do more than my Operative on all fronts. Bioware want's Operatives tied to stealth. They should have a stealth based gap closer at the very least, like Shadowstep. I play a Shadow on Thana Vesh and can attest that a dps operative is in no way, shape, or form close to as good as us. I am probably the most well known and possibly skilled shadow on our server and have fought numerous times with our best operatives and even after explaining my weaknesses to them over ventrilo and trying to help them become more competitive they are unable to come close to defeating a kinetic shadow build. Shadows have far more utility in that you can literally duo a large group of people with a pocket healer because you can shield them on top of your insane amounts of interupts and control of the field. Shadows have far more survivability due to resilience, which basically makes you immune to all cc and even most forms of damage for 5 seconds on a 45 second cd. Battle readiness heals you 10% on use and lowers the trigger cd on the heal from combat technique, which while isn't that great is still some free healing at no cost to you on a 2 minute cd. Not to mention most people don't seem to know how to save a cc cd for throw so you heal 12% roughly every 10-15 seconds that is uninterpretable. Shadows have increased uptime in damage due to talents which regenerate their force 30% quicker, which is the sole reason I went this spec very quickly. This talent along with 100% crit on project is what makes the kinetic tree so powerful. You don't have to ever worry about your resources. Shadows do not have as much burst while in the kinetic build, but they do have much, much better consistency. They are also able to spam resource abilities much more frequently due to the higher resource regeneration. While burst in many mmos has typically made classes very good, ops have the burst in the beginning, which is not as good as being able to set it up at any given point through build up of abilities. The previous statement of any given time meaning outside their 2 minute vanish cd that more than likely wont wont work because by then my resolve is either full or I am able to easily counter it with a cc break or class ability like resilience. Operatives are far from being a balanced class compared to various other classes in its current state. From my experience as the game is pre 1.2 I would say the greatest threats are Sentinels / Marauders, pyro and tank PT / Vanguards, tank Assassins / Shadows, and healer Commandos / Mercs. This all being from a shadows stand point mind you. Apologize for my grammar as I've just gotten back from a long day at work and am ready to hit the zzz's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxkardinal Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) You should carefully read my post before raging... however you turn it my point stands. By the way, can you describe how an operative can switch targets in combat on demand? Im just curious. For example you need to switch a healer 20 feet away from you, while youre preasuring a dps, or vice versa. Warriors can charge. Assassin can sprint BH powertech can grapple Operative can ... (replace the dodts) On topic: Depends on how you define "playable". You will still be able to kill players that aren't guarded and don't know how to counter you By 'Playable' i mean playable. Melee should be able to respond to combat tempo. Im not talking about stomping bads, i mean an executing gameplan as melee dps. At the moment all operative can do is open on somebody with hevy (not thhat heavy as it should be, but still) burst and turn into decent melee who can be outperformed by any other melee class. It would less awful if burst couldnt be countered by a simple knockback. Edited March 25, 2012 by Maxkardinal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmasterr Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) 1v1 ? sure OP concealment is best class (only when played to its full potential), i can win any class 1v1 as long as (yes yes, even tankassassins) : 1: i get the opener 2: there is los around (vs some classes) . Operative survivability is designed around not getting hit. Which in group pvp is crap, along with 0 utility, the class will never be "playable" in Rated WZ enviroment as dps. Edited March 25, 2012 by Dmasterr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remdo Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 The funny thing is, when people talk class balancing you will always hear things like: "it's a objective teambased game, its not balanced around 1v1" And I do believe it is true. However, when Concealment/Scrapper is being discussed, all of a sudden it IS a 1v1 game where as everything revolves around dueling :S How do you want it? Is it a 1v1 pvp game? Well then I guess we're okay. Is it a 8v8 pvp game with a objective to complete? Well then we're not okay, because we dont contribute anything that no other class has in form of utility and survivability in a team fight. No matter how hard you try, you cant argue against it, its just a simple fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ich_Bin Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 1v1 ? sure OP concealment is best class (only when played to its full potential), i can win any class 1v1 as long as (yes yes, even tankassassins) : 1: i get the opener 2: there is los around (vs some classes) . Operative survivability is designed around not getting hit. Which in group pvp is crap, along with 0 utility, the class will never be "playable" in Rated WZ enviroment as dps. Even for your 1v1 scenario that's a lot of "if"s. An equally skilled Assassin should get the opener on an Operative more often than not because the Operative can only use Hidden Strike on the Assassin from behind while the Assassin can attack from all angles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmasterr Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Even for your 1v1 scenario that's a lot of "if"s. An equally skilled Assassin should get the opener on an Operative more often than not because the Operative can only use Hidden Strike on the Assassin from behind while the Assassin can attack from all angles. The assassin lacks 2 levels of stealth because of build choice. So, i pretty much get the opener every time. On my operative, i can take down 1-2 people and cap the node in WZ, because of PUGS. I rely heavily on not getting hit, kiting and heal behind los. On my shadow (latest alt) i can pretty much solo 4 ppl at the same time WHILE getting pounded by them, same pug WZ's Edited March 25, 2012 by Dmasterr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heikaze Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 The assassin lacks 2 levels of stealth because of build choice. So, i pretty much get the opener every time. Well they actually have better stealth detection due to talents, so they will spot you before you spot them. Plus you have to get behind them to open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmasterr Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Well they actually have better stealth detection due to talents, so they will spot you before you spot them. Plus you have to get behind them to open. We have same level of stealth detection, operative gets +2 bonus as well. That being said, i never lose to operatives 1v1 on my shadow, because i know the one thing they need to win, and i deny that. Edited March 25, 2012 by Dmasterr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heikaze Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Then what do you mean by... The assassin lacks 2 levels of stealth because of build choice. So, i pretty much get the opener every time. Edit Nvm, you guys get both. Edited March 25, 2012 by heikaze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmasterr Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 We have effective stealth level +3 in concealment tree. Assassin version of that talent is in deception tree. All assassins tanks or hybrids, have 0 points in deception. If you are talking about dps assassin, i win every time on my op because he is just as squishy as me. Vs the overpowered assassin builds, operatives have 3 effective stealth level advantage, so we get the opener every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxkardinal Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 1v1 ? sure OP concealment is best class (only when played to its full potential), i can win any class 1v1 as long as (yes yes, even tankassassins) : 1: i get the opener 2: there is los around (vs some classes) . Operative survivability is designed around not getting hit. Which in group pvp is crap, along with 0 utility, the class will never be "playable" in Rated WZ enviroment as dps. 1v1 is not a problem. So far i didnt find any class i will loose 100% or will win 100%, no matter how lucky/unlucky i will be. It depends. And its ok. But i didnt see a big warning plate " You will not be able to compete in teamplay based matches with this class", when i was choosing my AC. Did you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryotknife Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) By the way, can you describe how an operative can switch targets in combat on demand? Im just curious. For example you need to switch a healer 20 feet away from you, while youre preasuring a dps, or vice versa. Warriors can charge. Assassin can sprint BH powertech can grapple Operative can ... (replace the dodts) By 'Playable' i mean playable. Melee should be able to respond to combat tempo. Im not talking about stomping bads, i mean an executing gameplan as melee dps. At the moment all operative can do is open on somebody with hevy (not thhat heavy as it should be, but still) burst and turn into decent melee who can be outperformed by any other melee class. It would less awful if burst couldnt be countered by a simple knockback. stealth to an enemy (especially healer or range) is the same as being forced to use your gap closer right in the beginning, at least for pts. now, if we could mount in wzs this would be a different issue. the only advantage to grapple over stealth (in a pure combat perspective) is that grapple can be used against a new target IF you survive for 45 seconds (which for a pyro pt with one of the worst defensive abilities in the game is not bloodly likely unless no one is attacking you or you have gaurd and a healer) . however, stealth is much MUCH more useful in terms of objectives. stealth single handedly wins alderaan and void star, grapple is nearly useless. grapple is more useful in huttball as all stealth can give you is the ability to be in a prime passing position. assassins are better than ops in nearly every way, that is why assassins are OP. doesnt mean OPS are UP. your class is nighly unplayable in huttball, but is still one of the most powerful classes in alderaan and voidstar. Edited March 25, 2012 by Ryotknife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxkardinal Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) stealth to an enemy is the same as being forced to use your gap closer right in the beginning Such a massive impact you just did to my confidence that you are a human being and have any idea what is the topic of discussion. Edited March 25, 2012 by Maxkardinal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryotknife Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Such a massive impact you just did to my confidence that you are a human being and have any idea what is the topic of discussion. the fact that you cant wrap your head around the simple concept that ops automatically start their first fight in melee range whereas other melee have to use a gap closer to achieve this result? im not claiming that stealth is a full card carrying gap closer, but it can in certain scenarios be used as such on top of having a plethora of other uses. my grapple can also not be used under certain conditions. and if you do get a gap closer, it better be on a long CD (45 seconds) because ops are not easy to get away from due to their large amount of control. the fact that you cant understand this lowers my faith in mankind. Edited March 25, 2012 by Ryotknife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmasterr Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) the fact that you cant wrap your head around the simple concept that ops automatically start their first fight in melee range whereas other melee have to use a gap closer to achieve this result? im not claiming that stealth is a full card carrying gap closer, but it can in certain scenarios be used as such on top of having a plethora of other uses. the fact that you cant understand this lowers my faith in mankind. If you put things that way, lets give your gap close (marauder? force leap) 2 minute cooldown (vanish), and see how u like it. Ops not easy to get away? Naga please, i kite ops all day, even when i play my own op. Edited March 25, 2012 by Dmasterr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryotknife Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) If you put things that way, lets give your gap close (marauder? force leap) 2 minute cooldown (vanish), and see how u like it. powertech (grapple) try again. i would have awarded some points for assassin, but they can force sprint. and i noticed people are calling a potential gap closer shadowstep, meaning they are familiar with wow. in that case they should be familiar with the fact that rogues didnt get shadowstep until they went from a high burst stunlock setup to a zero burst, medium sustained, high uptime setup where their opening 10 seconds of dps didnt really matter (on their own). Edited March 25, 2012 by Ryotknife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmasterr Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) powertech try again. So your charge /graple are on same 2 minute cd?, oh wait you play pyrotech. 1 word. Rail shot. /end Edited March 25, 2012 by Dmasterr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxkardinal Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) If you put things that way, lets give your gap close (marauder? force leap) 2 minute cooldown (vanish), and see how u like it. He will never get it, so let this young individual be with his 'Lots' of melee range croud control, which could be used as a gap closers' and 'stealthing to an enemy as an incombat target switch'. Edited March 25, 2012 by Maxkardinal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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