Some random thoughts for Tactics Tree

[Malvantyr]

Some ideas I had for helping the AP tree. All from a pvp mindset.

 

The problem with the tactics tree, such that most vanguards would rather be pyro is that it does not have enough burst to stand up in pvp. On top of that, the build must be in melee range, which means it will never keep up the sustained dps it supposedly has.

 

To fix a problem like this you need to alter the top end of the tree, or hybrids pop up again, which BW obviously does not want.

 

The BW 1.2 Fixes: They are some nice bandaids, but not enough in my opinion.

 

Pulse Generator: those additions were needed. The slow and making it uninteruptable will really make it much better in a pvp setting. However, 5 stacks is too many. Essensially the fight has been dragged out so long that your other hard hitting abilities have failed to seal victory, so you fall back on plan B, your pulse cannon. The problem is, even with pulse generator, you still havn't secured victory in many cases.

 

Fire Pulse adding a pulse generator charge: good move, allows you to get to that plan B sooner, when your initially attacks don't pressure your target. Really, pulse generator should just require 3 stacks. Grav Round can still apply 2 charges per use, why can't one of ours? Maybe, Fire Pulse should apply 2 charges (it is our 31 pt ability)

 

Removing Kolto Recharge: They recognised initially that this tree will need help with health because its going to be running around in melee. That weak HoT was not going to save the day though. Something like healing a percentage from Gut's DoT would have been better. At least then, you could throw gut all over in an attempt to save yourself. Gut's damage is so pitiful, that wouldn't really hurt the opposition anyway. Back to this tree needing help with health and survivability though, this was their attempt at adding some, it wasn't good, but something like that is still needed. They replaced weak survivability with Gut doing a slow...

 

Lets just chat about some of the current skills.

 

Serrated Blades: This is the most boring skill in the whole tree. It affects a DoT we set and forget. It doesn't even buff an attack we are actively using. So, that's 3 skill points of boring. I would MUCH rather see the dot damage just get buffed as part of the initial ability and get the slow here. 10/20/30% slow for each skill point. Anyone who is going into tactics and takes Gut will take Serrated Blades anyway. A pyro/tactics build does not need the slow, they have a better one, and so does Shield.

 

Shock Absorbers: Very cool talent, and deep in the tree survivability is a good thing. However, I try to spend as little time stunned as possible. When we get stunned for a long duration, we usually blow Tenacity, which means this skill didn't do squat. I'd rather this skill show a little synergy with Tenacity and Resolve, by making it "You take 20% less damage for 2 seconds after the effects of a stun wear off." Shock Absorbers currently only works on the first stun, which is usually a shorter stun, because we pop out of the second one, and stuns after that are usually stopped by Resolve. This sort of change would help greatly with the survivabilty of this AC.

 

Frontline Defense: so many people swear by this skill, and it can be very good. I believe this skill to be one of personal preference, and I personally do not take it. Our AC has so many tricks to lock down a healer without this skill, it seems like overkill. The only reason Tactics needs Frontline Defense in the first place is because it cannot do enough damage to actually pressure a healer the old fashioned way. That said, because choices are good, I'd leave the skill as is.

 

Discussion about possible additions to the tree.

 

This tree lacks a burst rotation besides bouncing around for awhile, then setting up pulse cannon. I'd fix that by adding a high end talent where Kolto Recharge is currently:

 

Trendy Grenade Name: "Causes Sticky Grenage to deal 30% more damage to targets effected by Gut's Bleed and immobilize the target for 2 seconds." -Requires High Energy Cell.

 

This type of talent, or one that buffs Sticky Grenade in general would be massively useful to a Tactics build, because it would increase our burst capability. Also, it would be another way for us to stay on our target, considering Tactics is a melee tree.

 

A 30% slow is nice for the Tactics Vanguard to stay on the target, but it doesn't help the group as much, because they are not running 15% faster like we are. It is a very self serving slow. If tactics cannot control other players as well as other builds via slows, and cannot burst, and has to stay in melee to remain consistent with their sustainable dps, perhaps they need more battlefield control. Perhaps something like this would help:

 

Tactical Sticky Grenade: "Targets damaged by Sticky Grenade are slowed by 30% for 2-4 seconds. The splash damage of Sticky Grenade is increased to 10m." -Requires High Energy Cell.

 

That would allow the Tactics Vanguard a little more mobility, by slowing the enemies. It would also make this a desirable AC for hutball.

 

In the end, I believe the delayed burst of Sticky Grenade would be a great place to look to enhance the burst or utility of Tactics. I know Assault has AP, but their burst really comes from the HIB proc, and the 30% extra crit damage on AP and HIB.

[Hizoka]

i love this mentality that it is impossible for the most unkitable class in game to not be able to stay in melee.

 

 

If it is so hard to stay in melee why is it sentinel shadows and guards have no issue doing it with slower movement speed and fewer if any ranged attacks??

[Malvantyr]

i love this mentality that it is impossible for the most unkitable class in game to not be able to stay in melee.

 

 

If it is so hard to stay in melee why is it sentinel shadows and guards have no issue doing it with slower movement speed and fewer if any ranged attacks??

 

It is impossible to kite an ASSAULT or SHIELD vanguard. If tactics was SO good at staying in melee, then why is BW GIVING them a slow? This is a discussion about Tactics vanguard, please learn that tree, then troll again.

[Hizoka]

It is impossible to kite an ASSAULT or SHIELD vanguard. If tactics was SO good at staying in melee, then why is BW GIVING them a slow? This is a discussion about Tactics vanguard, please learn that tree, then troll again.

 

ok so you have +15% movement speed, a +30% speed boost that prevent all snares roots and physics attacks and you have issues with kiting??

 

who is it that doesn't know the class?

[Malvantyr]

ok so you have +15% movement speed, a +30% speed boost that prevent all snares roots and physics attacks and you have issues with kiting??

 

who is it that doesn't know the class?

 

Are you just going to go from thread to thread telling people how bad they are, or do you have any meaningful contribution to making tactics better? Or at the very least, some of your thoughts about the tactics tree, and not about myself.

[Hizoka]

Are you just going to go from thread to thread telling people how bad they are, or do you have any meaningful contribution to making tactics better? Or at the very least, some of your thoughts about the tactics tree, and not about myself.

 

you said the problem is that the spec is melee. What you said makes 0 sense, its a MELEE spec, you have a multitude of advantages over other melee, bing you have attacks ranging from 4m to 30m you are one of teh fastest people on the battle field and have solid defense.

 

 

The "weaknesses" you point out are not weaknesses for the class. Having to get 5 stacks of pulse generator is nothing new in the world of MMOs you can get it even easier after 1.2 then you pop hold the line and melt people. The only thing that stops you is a stun and if they stuned you that means thats a stun not on a healer or a ball carrier.

 

What are weaknesses to you are not class weaknesses they are player weaknesses, and the sheer fact that you do not see the advantage of running 15% faster then everyone in combat shows that you do not grasp the class.

[Malvantyr]

you said the problem is that the spec is melee. What you said makes 0 sense, its a MELEE spec, you have a multitude of advantages over other melee, bing you have attacks ranging from 4m to 30m you are one of teh fastest people on the battle field and have solid defense.

 

 

The "weaknesses" you point out are not weaknesses for the class. Having to get 5 stacks of pulse generator is nothing new in the world of MMOs you can get it even easier after 1.2 then you pop hold the line and melt people. The only thing that stops you is a stun and if they stuned you that means thats a stun not on a healer or a ball carrier.

 

What are weaknesses to you are not class weaknesses they are player weaknesses, and the sheer fact that you do not see the advantage of running 15% faster then everyone in combat shows that you do not grasp the class.

We run 15% faster, but most classes have either a 30% or 50% slow, which means, even with the speed, a tactics vanguard is still slower.

 

We have no trouble staying in melee with the classes who want to keep us in melee, but the ones who kite will stun through hold the line, then kite you some more. Even if you harpoon them after the stun and hold the line end, now they can knock you back and kite some more. Yes, you can hammer shot and sticky grenade, lets see who wins that.

 

I was saying it should be three stacks, so after you use you main attacks, you can move into the pulse cannon. If you gut, FP, SS, HIB, that's only 1 debuff. You still need 4 more, and they've healed to full by then.

 

We could go over every class match up in great detail, and that might benefit some readers, but I doubt you and I will see eye to eye.

 

Aside from interrupting a healer, what utility do you think a tactics vanguard currently brings to the table?

[Hizoka]

We run 15% faster, but most classes have either a 30% or 50% slow, which means, even with the speed, a tactics vanguard is still slower.

 

We have no trouble staying in melee with the classes who want to keep us in melee, but the ones who kite will stun through hold the line, then kite you some more. Even if you harpoon them after the stun and hold the line end, now they can knock you back and kite some more. Yes, you can hammer shot and sticky grenade, lets see who wins that.

 

I was saying it should be three stacks, so after you use you main attacks, you can move into the pulse cannon. If you gut, FP, SS, HIB, that's only 1 debuff. You still need 4 more, and they've healed to full by then.

 

We could go over every class match up in great detail, and that might benefit some readers, but I doubt you and I will see eye to eye.

 

Aside from interrupting a healer, what utility do you think a tactics vanguard currently brings to the table?

you can clear the snare, that is what you are mission you cannot keep us snared. a ranged CANNOT stay away from tactics.

 

 

Do you really not see the pluses of locking down and killing healers in PvP?

 

 

you used hold the line right when you get to someone with a knockback because that is their first thing they are gonna do, its not gonna work then they panic. Sorry but the spec works very very well in PvP and PvE, its just not faceroll simple like assault.

[Malvantyr]

you can clear the snare, that is what you are mission you cannot keep us snared. a ranged CANNOT stay away from tactics.

 

 

Do you really not see the pluses of locking down and killing healers in PvP?

 

 

you used hold the line right when you get to someone with a knockback because that is their first thing they are gonna do, its not gonna work then they panic. Sorry but the spec works very very well in PvP and PvE, its just not faceroll simple like assault.

 

I see a great benefit from locking down healers, I just think anyone can do it. So, you don't need a tactics vanguard specifically for that.

 

You assume everyone with a knock back is a lousy player. That trick works once against good players, then they wait for it to be gone. Good players especially do not panic. What does tactics bring to rated organized Pvp that cannot be better done by a shadow or something else. Why take a tactics over a sentinel or assault vanguard?

[Hizoka]

I see a great benefit from locking down healers, I just think anyone can do it. So, you don't need a tactics vanguard specifically for that.

 

You assume everyone with a knock back is a lousy player. That trick works once against good players, then they wait for it to be gone. Good players especially do not panic. What does tactics bring to rated organized Pvp that cannot be better done by a shadow or something else. Why take a tactics over a sentinel or assault vanguard?

 

Assault is RNG burst, that is getting removed in the next patch.... Assault will be terrible damage come next patch, so there is no reason at all to bring one unless you want someone that does barely more damage then a tank.

 

Sentinels are plain damage with NO physisics attacks... whats better not being able to pull someone away from a goal or being able to peel someone?

[Malvantyr]

Assault is RNG burst, that is getting removed in the next patch.... Assault will be terrible damage come next patch, so there is no reason at all to bring one unless you want someone that does barely more damage then a tank.

 

Sentinels are plain damage with NO physisics attacks... whats better not being able to pull someone away from a goal or being able to peel someone?

 

Assault will be fine.

 

Sentinels do tons of damage and certain specs buff the ops.

 

Not every match is hutball.

[Saprezzan]

The snare's duration should be increased to at least 9 seconds. With 6, you'll be forced to spam a DoT attack. Combat tactics should be replaced with something else. Fire pulse should add two stacks of pulse cannon. Battering ram should affect more than just Stockstrike.

[Raggok]

What are weaknesses to you are not class weaknesses they are player weaknesses, and the sheer fact that you do not see the advantage of running 15% faster then everyone in combat shows that you do not grasp the class.

 

Running 15% faster doesn't help if you are snared and you can't snare your target. Hold the Line and Harpoon are available but are, of course, on a significant cooldown.

 

All melee classes should have an "on-demand" snare which is why they are giving a more reliable snare which will be available to people running both HEC and ION.

[Coramac]

I've been running a deep Tactics build lately... since I realize Assault was going to be terrible.

 

It is absolutely amazing.

 

1.) Fire Pulse to Ion Pulse is actually pretty reliable and solid burst. When I've got up my consumables, 6.5-7k is prett common and all damage occurs within about .5 seconds. It's very sharp and decently strong. It doesn't have better burst than Assault when it gets two HIB crits in a short time frame, but outside of that, it's better and very much so.

 

2.) Ammo- I remember the days of having to very carefully track when Recharge Cells was coming off CD. Fun times...

 

3.) It isn't nearly as melee oriented as I thought. With better gear, Ion Pulse hits hard... really hard. Same for Fire Pulse. It still has no kiting ability, but you can play a bit at that 10m range.

 

4.) Absolutely no need for Accuracy. I've almost finished remodding out every possible bit of accuracy that I can. It's great.

 

5.) Pulse Generator. When you successfully catch a group of people in a full channel of this ability with consumables up, the WZ freezes and you get a special cut scene saying you just won the game. The friends I run with mostly are Focus Guardians. The combination is pretty awesome... for our side at least.

[MSGlane]

5.) Pulse Generator. When you successfully catch a group of people in a full channel of this ability with consumables up, the WZ freezes and you get a special cut scene saying you just won the game.

 

I logged in just so that you can see that i thought this was the funniest thing i've read on here in ages.

[Blurps]

5.) Pulse Generator. When you successfully catch a group of people in a full channel of this ability with consumables up, the WZ freezes and you get a special cut scene saying you just won the game.

 

Until you wake up and realize your client was out of sync with the server again and you hit nothing but thin air, while the opposing team was happily disposing of your friends

[Coramac]

Until you wake up and realize your client was out of sync with the server again and you hit nothing but thin air, while the opposing team was happily disposing of your friends

 

LOL- that does happen... but it's pretty rare. I have more problems with poor hit boxes with the map design than that.

[Blurps]

Either way Pulse Cannon not doing diddly-squat happens entirely too often and adds to the issue of Tactics just not getting the job done against equally geared players. Edited March 29, 2012 by Blurps

[TehMerc]

The damage on Pulse Cannon won't be so back loaded with the damage getting split up between 4 ticks with 1 going off almost instantly rather than the 3 ticks after a second to a second and a half has passed. The way it is on the PTR.

 

So assuming you have 5 stacks up, people just running away from you should be much less of an issue.