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[Bocherel]

 

But you guys inserting snipe into your regular rotation are just wrong. It has its uses, but not often at all.

 

Neither you or Squatdog did explain why you believe it is wrong (when in fact it's far superior to any other opener.)

 

Why on earth would you WASTE 1.5sec? The guy is laying on the ground for god sake.

 

Please show at least some sort of argument if you're so convinced on the matter (even though none of you actually tried it)

Edited March 25, 2012 by Bocherel

[HanfordBlows]

Neither you or Squatdog did explain why you believe it is wrong (when in fact it's far superior to any other opener.)

 

Why on earth would you WASTE 1.5sec? The guy is laying on the ground for god sake.

 

Please show at least some sort of argument if you're so convinced on the matter (even though none of you actually tried it)

 

If you really were adamant about including Snipe/explosive probe in your rotation, the opener is the wrong place to do it.

 

A better place for it would be after a debilitate where you have more than 1.5 seconds to get the cast off successfully. Even this is a stretch however.

 

A rotation that I have used sparingly in the 1-49 bracket for some single target burst downs is as follows:

 

Relic -> AB/HS -> Backstab -> Lacerate -> Debilitate -> Snipe/Explosive Probe -> Shiv -> Lacerate -> Flashbang -> AB/Backstab

 

This really is if you want to completely lockdown someone from opener to death... But you're wasting a few cool downs to do it. You can throw in more Lacerates as your TA Procs allow.

 

All that being said, trying to get snipe off in the 1.5 second stun that Jarring Strike gives, leaves you open for CC if you don't get it off perfectly after your HS opener. Given the time it takes to enter cover, I wouldn't risk it as you're obviously already in Melee range and risk either an interrupt or full on CC.

Edited March 26, 2012 by HanfordBlows

[Bocherel]

If you really were adamant about including Snipe/explosive probe in your rotation, the opener is the wrong place to do it.

 

A better place for it would be after a debilitate where you have more than 1.5 seconds to get the cast off successfully. Even this is a stretch however.

 

A rotation that I have used sparingly in the 1-49 bracket for some single target burst downs is as follows:

 

Relic -> AB/HS -> Backstab -> Lacerate -> Debilitate -> Snipe/Explosive Probe -> Shiv -> Lacerate -> Flashbang -> AB/Backstab

 

How using it during the opener is different than using it during debilitate? 1.5sec knockdown is exactly the time necessary to throw crouch+snipe+prob.

 

Notice that someone is also much more likely to cc-break your debilitate than your knock down thus making that combo much better in the opening than during debilitate.

 

And EVEN if he interrupts me (with a bump) then PROBE will launch REGARDLESS. It's awesome. I don't get why you guys are skeptic. Try it out instead, you'll thanks me later.

 

Also, the only way someone interrupts me is by cc-breaking and if he does that it's a win-win situation = I have debilitate up to FULLY stun him.

 

I'd rather save my debilitate and don't waste a GCD during the knockdown.

 

BTW you cannot flashbang someone who has just been knocked down and stunned because he's still full resolve by the time you achive probe/shiv/lacerate but props to you at least you use snipe/probe to burst

 

Whatever, honestly, there's no need to blow all your CD to kill someone when you could save them for better purpose

 

This is the best opener one can get especially in the 10-49 bracket against average opponents.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Bocherel

[Ryemfoh]

How using it during the opener is different than using it during debilitate? 1.5sec knockdown is exactly the time necessary to throw crouch+snipe+prob.

 

Notice that someone is also much more likely to cc-break your debilitate than your knock down thus making that combo much better in the opening than during debilitate.

 

And EVEN if he interrupts me (with a bump) then PROBE will launch REGARDLESS. It's awesome. I don't get why you guys are skeptic. Try it out instead, you'll thanks me later.

I disagree simply because Shiv does more damage and has a 6s CD that you want to get rolling ASAP. It also grants a 2nd TA which you need for Lacerate since the 1st one from HS goes to Stim Boost (or another Lacerate if you think you're fighting a squishy ... sub 50 that's a fairly safe assumption)

 

BTW your stunlock rotation does not even work, you cannot flashbang someone who has just been knocked down and stunned because he's still full resolve by the time you achive probe/shiv/lacerate

You're right on this one. It's the reason why I agree with the guy that said "Don't put Debilitate in your opening rotation" - sure, I use it sometimes, but usually I like to keep it.

 

I usually throw up Sever Tendon as they stand up from the faceplant, and this often draws a CC-breaker from bad's who are expecting a Debilitate .. so please, keep being predictable - it makes me look like a better player

 

This is the best opener one can get especially in the 10-49 bracket against average opponents.

I disagree, but it's not that terrible. You are right that using EP after Snipe is an effective use of the Snipe cast time (ability queue ftw), and the fact that the two hit simultaneously is nice because to your opponent it looks as if you've just whacked them for a ****ton whereas Shiv -> EP the damage is spread by 1.5+ seconds (EP won't proc instantly, but will from your dots if you have any up). This in itself might make him/her panic and blow CD's without thinking which may be a good thing I suppose.

 

Each to his own, if this is working for you then that's great. After I throw up Sever I often position for a knockback by running out of range and hitting crouch > EP before moving back in .. I think your snipe+EP combo would work better there for me, but the energy cost at that point is fairly daunting (specially if you didn't use Shiv to get Stim Boost up!).

 

I'll give it a try and let you know, I'm never one to dismiss something without giving it a shot

[Bocherel]

I disagree simply because Shiv does more damage and has a 6s CD that you want to get rolling ASAP. It also grants a 2nd TA which you need for Lacerate since the 1st one from HS goes to Stim Boost (or another Lacerate if you think you're fighting a squishy ... sub 50 that's a fairly safe assumption)

Shiv does more damage than snipe sure but it doesn't help for the burst since you trigger the GCD and you can still use Shiv RIGHT after snipe/prob anyway so this point is moot imo.

 

( At worse you've lost 1.5sec on Shiv timer and the target is often dead when you finish that rotation anyway.)

 

 

 

You're right on this one. It's the reason why I agree with the guy that said "Don't put Debilitate in your opening rotation" - sure, I use it sometimes, but usually I like to keep it.

 

I usually throw up Sever Tendon as they stand up from the faceplant, and this often draws a CC-breaker from bad's who are expecting a Debilitate .. so please, keep being predictable - it makes me look like a better player

 

Yes, I often do the same as well, a lots of people gets confused by the root and do nothing or cc-breaks it. I can only agree with you there.

 

 

I disagree, but it's not that terrible. You are right that using EP after Snipe is an effective use of the Snipe cast time (ability queue ftw), and the fact that the two hit simultaneously is nice because to your opponent it looks as if you've just whacked them for a ****ton whereas Shiv -> EP the damage is spread by 1.5+ seconds (EP won't proc instantly, but will from your dots if you have any up). This in itself might make him/her panic and blow CD's without thinking which may be a good thing I suppose.

Yup, those are all great advantages from that opener and I don't see other opener who offer just as much, the only thing is using shiv instead to keep a better mobility depending on the situation.

 

 

Each to his own, if this is working for you then that's great. After I throw up Sever I often position for a knockback by running out of range and hitting crouch > EP before moving back in .. I think your snipe+EP combo would work better there for me, but the energy cost at that point is fairly daunting (specially if you didn't use Shiv to get Stim Boost up!).

 

I'll give it a try and let you know, I'm never one to dismiss something without giving it a shot

 

Thanks for taking the time to at least consider what I'm proposing. (BTW you HAVE stim boost up, remember : HS gives you a TA and you can reverse lacerate/shiv in my proposal )

 

 

I just made a quick video so perhaps people will understand what I meant and to show that you can kill quickly without using CD. And if your opponent is good you can always add severe tendon/debilitate after the opener anyway.

 

 

Here it is:

Edited March 27, 2012 by Bocherel

[mulzii]

1.2 is bringing a change to the old snipe-->EP double shot (and ambush->ep for snipers)

Cannot get the immediate EP trigger on the last second of snipe/ambush anymore. Not a deal breaker, but its on pts now...

[Bocherel]

1.2 is bringing a change to the old snipe-->EP double shot (and ambush->ep for snipers)

Cannot get the immediate EP trigger on the last second of snipe/ambush anymore. Not a deal breaker, but its on pts now...

 

seriously? damn BW... why on earth would they change that

 

thanks for the info

[Ryemfoh]

Shiv does more damage than snipe sure but it doesn't help for the burst since you trigger the GCD and you can still use Shiv RIGHT after snipe/prob anyway so this point is moot imo.

 

( At worse you've lost 1.5sec on Shiv timer and the target is often dead when you finish that rotation anyway.)

Not exaclty ... Snipe = 1.5s cast + EP will trigger your GCD (1.5s) meaning Shiv is delayed by 3s. This is even before the nerf to EP queueing reported by mulzii which I find very strange. I seem to remember reading somewhere that Scoundrels EP mirror ability has a slight animation delay, so maybe this is to level the playing field?

 

You're also at risk of losing the AB DoT before your first Lacerate:

HS (1.5s) + Snipe (1.5s) + EP (1.5s) + Shiv (1.5s) = 6s, so unless you're running with 0 latency and have enough Alacrity (a terrible stat for us) to lower Snipe to ~1.4s the DoT will fall off before Lacerate hits and you lose a Collateral Strike proc chance.

 

If you use the TA from HS for Lacerate and Shiv after, you risk losing your 2% damage buff, and delay Stim Boost by ~7.5s (unless you already have Stim Boost up before the fight starts, which is rare in PVE)

 

I'm still going to give Snipe > EP a try during my normal KB positioning, but if anything I'm more convinced that it doesn't belong after HS.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Ryemfoh

[Bocherel]

Not exaclty ... Snipe = 1.5s cast + EP will trigger your GCD (1.5s) meaning Shiv is delayed by 3s. This is even before the nerf to EP queueing reported by mulzii which I find very strange. I seem to remember reading somewhere that Scoundrels EP mirror ability has a slight animation delay, so maybe this is to level the playing field?

 

You're also at risk of losing the AB DoT before your first Lacerate:

HS (1.5s) + Snipe (1.5s) + EP (1.5s) + Shiv (1.5s) = 6s, so unless you're running with 0 latency and have enough Alacrity (a terrible stat for us) to lower Snipe to ~1.4s the DoT will fall off before Lacerate hits and you lose a Collateral Strike proc chance.

 

If you use the TA from HS for Lacerate and Shiv after, you risk losing your 2% damage buff, and delay Stim Boost by ~7.5s (unless you already have Stim Boost up before the fight starts, which is rare in PVE)

 

I'm still going to give Snipe > EP a try during my normal KB positioning, but if anything I'm more convinced that it doesn't belong after HS.

 

Thats true for the shiv delay but its also not appealing to watch the knock down sort of "wasted" for

an instant skill, and the burst from snipe ep is really nice.

 

Also watch the video, it takes me 7sec to kill the opponent (7.5sec to be accurate) and execute my full rotation, but you are also right i must be missing 1.5s on ab dot so i will reverse bs with lacerate at the end. Thanks it will improve it.

 

Plus you seem worried about stim boost but honestly Im almost always under stim boost as i use it when i kill my opponent and when i use kolto so really Im not missing it.

 

An alternative would be snipe+shiv during the kd(you can throw it from crouch) and use prob after severe tendon or as a finisher

 

.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Bocherel

[Ryemfoh]

Thats true for the shiv delay but its also not appealing to watch the knock down sort of "wasted" for

an instant skill, and the burst from snipe ep is really nice.

 

Also watch the video, it takes me 7sec to kill the opponent (7.5sec to be accurate) and execute my full rotation, but you are also right i must be missing 1.5s on ab dot so i will reverse bs with lacerate at the end. Thanks it will improve it.

 

Plus you seem worried about stim boost but honestly Im almost always under stim boost as i use it when i kill my opponent and when i use kolto so really Im not missing it.

 

An alternative would be snipe+shiv during the kd(you can throw it from crouch) and use prob after severe tendon or as a finisher

 

.

 

The thing is, while you're in melee range you should be using your melee abilities simply because they hit harder and use less energy than Snipe. What you're interpreting as Snipe damage is actually the EP going off. Snipe is just the trigger, and any other damage ability (e.g. AB DoT) would be as effective.

 

EP and OrbS are the only 2 ranged* abilities that do enough damage to justify casting while in melee range, so I guess if you truly believe that using an instant during a stun is a bad thing you could hit OrbS ... but since the stun will end before the cast time you'll probably just get interrupted.

 

* Overload shot could be considered ranged I guess, but it's only 10m. If you are in range to use it, it is also a better choice than Snipe (cheaper and does more damage). Take a look at the 1.2 log parses than Nizel posted here to get an idea of avg damage for each ability (except Grenade) and you'll see that Snipe is pretty far down the list...

[Bocherel]

The thing is, while you're in melee range you should be using your melee abilities simply because they hit harder and use less energy than Snipe. What you're interpreting as Snipe damage is actually the EP going off. Snipe is just the trigger, and any other damage ability (e.g. AB DoT) would be as effective.

 

EP and OrbS are the only 2 ranged* abilities that do enough damage to justify casting while in melee range, so I guess if you truly believe that using an instant during a stun is a bad thing you could hit OrbS ... but since the stun will end before the cast time you'll probably just get interrupted.

 

* Overload shot could be considered ranged I guess, but it's only 10m. If you are in range to use it, it is also a better choice than Snipe (cheaper and does more damage). Take a look at the 1.2 log parses than Nizel posted here to get an idea of avg damage for each ability (except Grenade) and you'll see that Snipe is pretty far down the list...

 

Yup but energy has never been an issue so far. Also I know snipe is only the trigger but its all about the burst it provide at the same time. Id rather benefit from the knockdown to throw a burst that wont cost me a cd on my melee abilities that i will fully use while moving after the opening.

 

Plus i play with another operative and throwing that at the same time on our target is hilarious but i guess the 1.2 changes will kill that combo anyway.

 

BTW it doesnt matter if its a ranged abilitie it has no cooldown and we dont have much dps filler so i would rather end the fight asap and save some cc for another target.

 

And i dont "interpret" those damages, snipe can crit up to 2k+ and probe up to 3k+, it has a huge impact on the opponent reaction to lose instantly that much in the opener.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Bocherel

[Ryemfoh]

Yup but energy has never been an issue so far. Also I know snipe is only the trigger but its all about the burst it provide at the same time. Id rather benefit from the knockdown to throw a burst that wont cost me a cd on my melee abilities that i will fully use while moving after the opening.

Maybe I've been fighting in the 50 bracket for too long ... it is rare that I manage to conjure 1v1 fights with time to rest and reset between. Usually I open on 1, and end up fighting at least 1 more (often 2 or 3) before there's a break in the action, so yeah, I watch my energy bar.

 

I also don't know what you mean by "cost me a cd on my melee abilities" ... you want your hardest hitting abilities to be on CD as early and as often as possible to get the most out of them. Consider this (using post 1.2 numbers):

• Avg PVP fight lasts let's say 21s (made up number of 14 GCD's for convenience)
  
• If you open with HS, that's 19.5s left
  
• At most, you can get 2 uses out of BS because of the 15s cooldown. This means you can safely delay using BS by (19.5 - 15) 4.5s or just 3 GCD's before you lose 1 in the fight.
• With a 6s cooldown, you can get 3 Shiv's at most into the fight. This means you can only delay Shiv by (19.5 - 18) 1.5s or 1 GCD before you lose a Shiv from the fight.
  
• EP has a 30s cooldown, so you can only get 1 into the fight. This means you can delay your Snipe+EP combo as long as you want.
  
• Using your opener (HS > Snipe > EP > Lac (so AB is up) > Shiv > BS(?)) you will not only be losing damage in the first 4.5 seconds, but you will also be losing 1 full Shiv and 1 full BS from the fight.
  

 

You can reduce or extend my example fight length all you like, and you will see that there are very few windows where your opener doesn't actually cost you a significant amount of damage.

 

Sure, if you're tag-teaming with another Operative (or any effective burst class) such that your average fight lasts less than 13s then you're safe, but you should explicitly state that this is the case when offering advice to new players ("I use this because it looks like it does a lot of damage, which scares my opponents, and because I tag-team with XX so my fights are too short for delaying my harder-hitting abilities to make a difference")

 

Plus i play with another operative and throwing that at the same time on our target is hilarious but i guess the 1.2 changes will kill that combo anyway.

 

BTW it doesnt matter if its a ranged abilitie it has no cooldown and we dont have much dps filler so i would rather end the fight asap and save some cc for another target.

I'm not really talking about losing a CC though. As I mentioned, I use debilitate sometimes but every fight is different and you need to adapt to each opponent.

 

I'm not sure what you're getting at with "dps filler" here. I already told you that Shiv, Lac, BS, EP and Overload Shot are all above Snipe in damage, and all of them (except EP) cost less energy. Every one of them should be above Snipe on your priority list. I believe even Corrosive Dart is higher damage if you expect the fight to last more than ~9s.

 

And i dont "interpret" those damages, snipe can crit up to 2k+ and probe up to 3k+, it has a huge impact on the opponent reaction to lose instantly that much in the opener.

Yeah the fact that they suddenly lose up to 5k might be a factor in their decision making processes, but consider that in the 1.5s you spend casting snipe + EP, you could have used any one of the abilities I listed above with greater overall effect.

 

By the time they stand up from faceplant, instead of 5k down they could be 6 or even 7k down by using Shiv/BS + EP instead. Same 3 seconds, significantly more damage (and less energy used)

[Bocherel]

^ sorry hard to quote on my phone.

 

I am talking about 10-49 bracket where the avg fight is less than 10sec. On mt video i ended up in 3v1 and killed them all because i got rid of one very quickly and still had cc and shiv to take on the other two.

 

I am also using that rotation playing alone, its just even more effective with two people.

 

The burst from shiv / lacerate / bs is still used but as a finisher, i think as you said you are used to the bracket 50 with longer fight where you will use some abilitie two times or more.

 

Still probe is one great of a skill and i disagree with those people who dont even use them especially in that bracket.

 

Regardless, I am curious to have your feedback once you have tried it, so far it works for me better than the others opener.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Bocherel

[Ryemfoh]

Regardless, I am curious to have your feedback once you have tried it, so far it works for me better than the others opener.

 

Gave this a try a few times tonight, but only once as an opener. Maybe I had the wrong expectations, but it didn't work for me as an opener as well as Shiv > Lac.

 

It did work pretty well as a finisher though - specially on Sorc's who are trying to Force Speed out of range. In that scenario the GCD from EP can basically be ignored since the fight is ended, so for effectively 1GCD (Snipe cast) you get a truck-load of damage.

 

It is pretty expensive, and a couple times I was low on energy for a few seconds after - luckily in PVP AP is almost always up for me so that wasn't a big deal.

[Bocherel]

Gave this a try a few times tonight, but only once as an opener. Maybe I had the wrong expectations, but it didn't work for me as an opener as well as Shiv > Lac.

 

It did work pretty well as a finisher though - specially on Sorc's who are trying to Force Speed out of range. In that scenario the GCD from EP can basically be ignored since the fight is ended, so for effectively 1GCD (Snipe cast) you get a truck-load of damage.

 

It is pretty expensive, and a couple times I was low on energy for a few seconds after - luckily in PVP AP is almost always up for me so that wasn't a big deal.

 

Thanks for the feedback, grealty appreciated.

 

I will give it a try as a finisher instead and see how things are going that way. BTW one thing I believe is that it's more fitting in the 10-49 bracket.

 

Anyway the 1.2 changes will probably kill the combo as an opener so I better use something else from now on

Edited March 27, 2012 by Bocherel