When can we expect to see a nerf of the Hybrid Sin/Shadow?

[matekwong]

The problem isn't the abilities that Tanksins/shadows are given, its the fact they are given great survivability along with great damage. As an infiltration shadow, i will always lose to a tank shadow/sin, often with them still at about 50% health. They should have to choose between damage or survivability, not get both. The best solution would be to put a damage penalty on the tanking stances, then give a threat bonus to not effect pve greatly. Tanks deserve to take less damage, and they have that, but their damage is way too high.

 

First of all, tank speced Shadows are tanks. They shouldn't go down like flies in an 1 on 1.

 

Secondly, without Kinetic ward that wards them from 8 hits, they go down pretty damn fast, especially in PVP where the AOE etc. blasting out like mad.

 

You people have only seen the pros forgetting the cons. Learn how a Shadow works before crying for a nerf. Its like QQing to nerf merc's missle spams just because they have killed you so many times in WZs.

Edited March 27, 2012 by matekwong

[AMKSED]

what a 2 second stun from guardians? hardly anything a sage has.

 

regardless you can't compare Sages and Shadows in a vacuum. to many variables.

 

Do sages have anything like

 

Sever Force

Instant

Force: 20

Cooldown: 9s

Range: 30 m

Weakens the target, freezing it in place for 2 seconds and dealing 854 internal damage over 18 seconds.

 

Again can't compare in a vacuum.

 

And beta was so long ago. Did you know shadows could change stances without it costing 100 force back in beta. No one complained but it was changed. A 30m project on all specs for shadows obviously something was wrong with it. Thats why it was changed.

 

If I had a 30m project in infiltration spec I definitely would have stayed infil spec.

 

30m project in kinetic spec

 

Hmmm so it would go Here comes high Pri target. Project, force potency, relic, telekinetic throw (im in full stalker gear so I have 3 charges) project.

 

They are getting close now. 30m stun or should I use kick? dont want to fill that resolve bar lets get them close probably should pop resilence. Kick, slow time, force speed away to safe distance if i choose, project. Telekinetic throw.

 

Uh oh here they come 30m stun (time to start building up harnessed shadows since I already have the life lead might aswell heal the little damage they have done to me.

 

By the time a full melee range engagement has taken place you probably have force potency close to back up or your relic.

 

This scenario is ok for you?

 

Yes, Sages do have that ability because that's the shared tree. You're dumb bro lol.

 

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about and have TERRIBLE reading comprehension. I said for the FORCE TECHNIQUE to get the 30m increase on Project/Throw.

Edited March 27, 2012 by AMKSED

[Mize]

Keep this thread alive man, thanks for being so honest about your spec/gear combo being unbalanced. I made a thread on both Sin/Shadow forums a while ago and of course got 75% troll responses.

 

I think a lot of people saying it's not "OP" either play it and aren't good, or have played against bad ones that don't know how to use this combo effectively. Yeah you can die, duh, but damn is it hard to take you down for how much DPS you dish out during your extensive uptime. Supported by a healer, it's just plain nuts.

[matekwong]

Keep this thread alive man, thanks for being so honest about your spec/gear combo being unbalanced. I made a thread on both Sin/Shadow forums a while ago and of course got 75% troll responses.

 

I think a lot of people saying it's not "OP" either play it and aren't good, or have played against bad ones that don't know how to use this combo effectively. Yeah you can die, duh, but damn is it hard to take you down for how much DPS you dish out during your extensive uptime. Supported by a healer, it's just plain nuts.

 

You have made alot of contradiction in your posts.

 

Every class can dish out high DPS when they are supported by a healer. Have you ever seen Jugg or Sentinel flat out rampaging 6 men with healing supported? Those were nightmare.

 

If "the class is OP if ppl play it good" is what you meant, then every class in the game is OP.

[Vaipyr]

It just means both of them needs the nerfbat.

I swear you people just want to nerf everything over and over and over again for no reason whatsoever other than something gets mentioned, added or rebalanced in a game. It's sick and pretty much keeps degrading the gaming medium as a whole. FFS.

 

It's not ok for tank spec anything to do "INSANE" damage.

Ok. Then tanks need to have their solo survivability buffed up a lot. To the point where they can TANK any dps'er long enough to kill them through attrition while having >50% hp left at the end. Bet you don't like that idea either though. If the "tanks" in swtor have their damage made gimpy (even more so than it is already comparitively to dpsers) then what in the bloody hell is the point of playing one?

 

It'd be like playing a prot warrior in pvp before the buff, and after they were subsequently nerfed after having a SINGLE season where one made gladiator. It's stupid. Besides that one fluke season where for a brief shining moment a tank was actually balanced and pvp viable they were a joke, painful to play (pre-dual spec especially) and a flat out insult to the players of the class. Yeah, I played one. PvP was REAL fun on a tank class that did nothing other than intervene to someone and mitigate some damage here and there without any possibility of actually winning a fight. Good times.

 

 

That is a focus guardian only.

No, I was talking about a properly spec'd defense/vig pvp build. That's what my guardian tank is and he does quite well thank you.

 

 

but tank specs shouldn't do almost as much dps as dps specs.

They don't. DPS specs do quite a bit more. However tanks are VIABLE, and I think that just really pisses off a grip of people because they've been used to tanks being worthless in pvp for practically the entire history of gaming. And no, tank-mages don't count, they were just further insult to the true tank players out there.

 

Question is, why don't people want tanks to play/have fun/be viable in pvp for a change?

 

TLDR: Tanks currently are viable because they can actually kill people. Their survivability is pretty **** for the "tank" archetype they're supposed to portray. Unless you guys all want to buff up their survivability 10-fold in tradeoff for decreased dps what would be the point of playing one other than masochism in pvp?

[Xinika]

I swear you people just want to nerf everything over and over and over again for no reason whatsoever other than something gets mentioned, added or rebalanced in a game. It's sick and pretty much keeps degrading the gaming medium as a whole. FFS.

 

 

Ok. Then tanks need to have their solo survivability buffed up a lot. To the point where they can TANK any dps'er long enough to kill them through attrition while having >50% hp left at the end. Bet you don't like that idea either though. If the "tanks" in swtor have their damage made gimpy (even more so than it is already comparitively to dpsers) then what in the bloody hell is the point of playing one?

 

It'd be like playing a prot warrior in pvp before the buff, and after they were subsequently nerfed after having a SINGLE season where one made gladiator. It's stupid. Besides that one fluke season where for a brief shining moment a tank was actually balanced and pvp viable they were a joke, painful to play (pre-dual spec especially) and a flat out insult to the players of the class. Yeah, I played one. PvP was REAL fun on a tank class that did nothing other than intervene to someone and mitigate some damage here and there without any possibility of actually winning a fight. Good times.

 

 

 

No, I was talking about a properly spec'd defense/vig pvp build. That's what my guardian tank is and he does quite well thank you.

 

 

 

They don't. DPS specs do quite a bit more. However tanks are VIABLE, and I think that just really pisses off a grip of people because they've been used to tanks being worthless in pvp for practically the entire history of gaming. And no, tank-mages don't count, they were just further insult to the true tank players out there.

 

Question is, why don't people want tanks to play/have fun/be viable in pvp for a change?

 

TLDR: Tanks currently are viable because they can actually kill people. Their survivability is pretty **** for the "tank" archetype they're supposed to portray. Unless you guys all want to buff up their survivability 10-fold in tradeoff for decreased dps what would be the point of playing one other than masochism in pvp?

 

I love this post. +1

 

I was an arms warrior that also experimented with mancleave in S10. (Despite prot wars not being good then.) The logic of facerollers can be literally mind boggling.

 

Want to take tank DPS, then buff their survivability? Fine suggestion.

[-Sithis-]

 

Just going to toss this in here. Doing burst DPS and sustained DPS with high survivability, with 40%+ damage reduction (Combat Technique), all while being able to guard a healer? You have to be seriously bad at this game to be bad at this spec.

 

Shadow in the vid is 27/0/14 and is well known on our server for being nearly impossible to kill. He gets the same results with 31/0/10, using DPS gear in both specs.

 

I've seen him get over 700k damage multiple times after the surge nerf (while in 31/0/10 and 27/0/14).

 

IMO, there is no way to justify a class doing over 700k damage with 31 points in its tank tree, or even 27 points in it. (Especially with all the defensive CD's and innate survivability).

 

In fact, Prestige (the shadow in the video above) is so comfortable with his innate burst damage that he actually uses defensive relics and adrenals most of the time.

 

 

 

I'm glad you made this thread Amk and I'm glad you are keeping it alive. Really just seems silly that no change was made to this spec in 1.2.

[AMKSED]

 

Just going to toss this in here. Doing burst DPS and sustained DPS with high survivability, with 40%+ damage reduction (Combat Technique), all while being able to guard a healer? You have to be seriously bad at this game to be bad at this spec.

 

Shadow in the vid is 27/0/14 and is well known on our server for being nearly impossible to kill. He gets the same results with 31/0/10, using DPS gear in both specs.

 

I've seen him get over 700k damage multiple times after the surge nerf (while in 31/0/10 and 27/0/14).

 

IMO, there is no way to justify a class doing over 700k damage with 31 points in its tank tree, or even 27 points in it. (Especially with all the defensive CD's and innate survivability).

 

In fact, Prestige (the shadow in the video above) is so comfortable with his innate burst damage that he actually uses defensive relics and adrenals most of the time.

 

 

 

I'm glad you made this thread Amk and I'm glad you are keeping it alive. Really just seems silly that no change was made to this spec in 1.2.

 

I'm all for changes to be made with the hybrid build as long as the boost up the Infiltration and Balance trees too. Which I've already given the easiest ways to do that.

[Vaipyr]

with the hybrid build

 

Stop mis-using this term. 31/x/x is NOT a hybrid build. Period.

You "kinda" have some ground in claiming that the 27/x/x is a hybrid build, but only just barely.

[Xinika]

Point me to this hybrid wonder please. I'd love to see how overpowered it is.

 

Spec? Rotation? Setup?

[AMKSED]

Stop mis-using this term. 31/x/x is NOT a hybrid build. Period.

You "kinda" have some ground in claiming that the 27/x/x is a hybrid build, but only just barely.

 

Look up definition of hybrid.

[AMKSED]

Can't wait for rated WZs.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/63104066/Screenshot_2012-03-26_21_46_13_513645.jpg

 

 

+ I love doing 8K damage with Telekinetic Throw with Resilience up to where they can't do anything about it.

Edited March 27, 2012 by AMKSED

[Vaipyr]

Look up definition of hybrid.

 

Ok dude, if you're going to play that game:

hy·brid/ˈhīˌbrid/

Noun:

A thing made by combining two different elements; a mixture.

 

Every healer that also has a damaging ability is a hybrid

Every dps that has a self heal, OR a survivability/protection ability is a hybrid

Does that gunslinger have an ability that mitigates damage he takes for any amount of time? Well damn, he's a hybrid dps/tank. Nerf him!

 

In short, EVERYONE is a hybrid, period.

 

Yup, I like your definition because it means we nerf EVERYONE for being hybrids.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Vaipyr

[-Sithis-]

Point me to this hybrid wonder please. I'd love to see how overpowered it is.

 

Spec? Rotation? Setup?

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601rIMkzMskrZZf0cM.1

 

Used with full DPS gear modded for ~75% surge and the rest in power.

 

Rotation is pretty simple. You Double Strike to get procs on Project, which in turn builds Harnessing Shadows. Mix in defensive CDs, stuns, etc. and you are set.

 

Also you can get high burst by getting a proc on Project, then using Force Potency for crits on Project and FiB while the Project lands.

 

I've seen Prestige hit full BM sages for more than 50% of their health with TK throw. That is with 3 stacks of Harnessed Shadows, power adrenal, Force Potency, and full DPS gear.

 

I personally have done 300k+ damage with 100k+ protection and 50k+ healing on lvl 20/30 Shadow/Assassin, without half the goodies the spec gives.

[Xinika]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601rIMkzMskrZZf0cM.1

 

Used with full DPS gear modded for ~75% surge and the rest in power.

 

Rotation is pretty simple. You Double Strike to get procs on Project, which in turn builds Harnessing Shadows. Mix in defensive CDs, stuns, etc. and you are set.

 

Also you can get high burst by getting a proc on Project, then using Force Potency for crits on Project and FiB while the Project lands.

 

I've seen Prestige hit full BM sages for more than 50% of their health with TK throw. That is with 3 stacks of Harnessed Shadows, power adrenal, Force Potency, and full DPS gear.

 

I personally have done 300k+ damage with 100k+ protection and 50k+ healing on lvl 20/30 Shadow/Assassin, without half the goodies the spec gives.

 

Warzone scoreboards mean not a damned thing. I've been this spec before. It's not even that good... but here I go again.

 

Edit: Wait, this is the one w/o FiB? Lol.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Xinika

[Xinika]

Can't wait for rated WZs.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/63104066/Screenshot_2012-03-26_21_46_13_513645.jpg

 

 

+ I love doing 8K damage with Telekinetic Throw with Resilience up to where they can't do anything about it.

 

Sorry your enemies are too stupid to counter you or use LoS. You should be on my server, you won't be crying about how overpowered this spec is.

 

Also, warzone scoreboards mean nothing.

[Slurmez]

Just accept you cant argue with a moron (nerfherders) they dont see things as an overview they see their flaccid little epeen withering away and will cry about every class that they dont play on.

 

I dont play an assassin and couldnt care less about them, they are not godmodes and none of note stick in my mind at all, maras, sorcs and even operatives I am aware of particular names and dangerous players but assassins? No.

 

Any nerf to assassins/shadows would essentially be a buff to me but they dont need it and its not going to come anyway. Thankfully in this case (sadly in terms of the asstastic 1.2 armour art) they dont pay a blind bit of attention to the boards and work off in game metrics.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Slurmez

[Vyndeta]

 

Just going to toss this in here. Doing burst DPS and sustained DPS with high survivability, with 40%+ damage reduction (Combat Technique), all while being able to guard a healer? You have to be seriously bad at this game to be bad at this spec.

 

Shadow in the vid is 27/0/14 and is well known on our server for being nearly impossible to kill. He gets the same results with 31/0/10, using DPS gear in both specs.

 

I've seen him get over 700k damage multiple times after the surge nerf (while in 31/0/10 and 27/0/14).

 

IMO, there is no way to justify a class doing over 700k damage with 31 points in its tank tree, or even 27 points in it. (Especially with all the defensive CD's and innate survivability).

 

In fact, Prestige (the shadow in the video above) is so comfortable with his innate burst damage that he actually uses defensive relics and adrenals most of the time.

 

 

 

I'm glad you made this thread Amk and I'm glad you are keeping it alive. Really just seems silly that no change was made to this spec in 1.2.

 

OMG DON'T NERF THE REAL OP CLASS U NOOB. I NEED PRESTIGE TO B OP 4 RATEDS. o yea vosh i dont beleive u... tanks can't do no 700k SINGLE TARGET TOO LOL ... thats impossible... o wait... this is SWTOR... OP player plays OP class= WIN.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Vyndeta

[-Sithis-]

Warzone scoreboards mean not a damned thing. I've been this spec before. It's not even that good... but here I go again.

 

Not that good yet no one on our server can beat Prestige 1v1?

 

I play a Guardian. In focus spec I can hit Infil shadows for 6.5k. I can down them before than can do much to me simply because of how pathetic their light armor is. The highest I've ever hit Prestige (with expertise adrenal included) was about 3800. I am 100% max geared with full BM and Rakata modded for Power/Surge.

 

In Vigilance spec, I can't do much to Prestige because half of my attacks are subject to defense chance, and he is loaded with it from the spec and from Deflection.

 

I'm valor 72, he's Valor 80+, our whole guild is pretty much War Hero/Conqueror and no one can touch him.

 

I think that if you can't successfully use the spec then it is more of a L2P issue.

 

From my own experience with the class and watching guys like Prestige and Amksed, I can say that any problems you have with this spec are skill-related.

[AMKSED]

Sorry your enemies are too stupid to counter you or use LoS. You should be on my server, you won't be crying about how overpowered this spec is.

 

Also, warzone scoreboards mean nothing.

 

 

Keep telling yourself that.

[-Sithis-]

OMG DON'T NERF THE REAL OP CLASS U NOOB. I NEED PRESTIGE TO B OP 4 RATEDS. o yea vosh i dont beleive u... tanks can't do no 700k SINGLE TARGET TOO LOL ... thats impossible... o wait... this is SWTOR... OP player plays OP class= WIN.

 

OMG HEY GURL. Yeah I'm trying to help Amksed out here. Highly unlikely anything will change but I gotta stick up for my frands right?

 

Miss you guys on Fatman but must finish this essay!

 

P.S. is grocery 50 yet?

[Xinika]

Not that good yet no one on our server can beat Prestige 1v1? .

 

Stopped right there.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Xinika

[Xinika]

Keep telling yourself that.

 

Keep telling yourself you're good.

[Slurmez]

Not that good yet no one on our server can beat Prestige 1v1?

 

I play a Guardian. In focus spec I can hit Infil shadows for 6.5k. I can down them before than can do much to me simply because of how pathetic their light armor is. The highest I've ever hit Prestige (with expertise adrenal included) was about 3800. I am 100% max geared with full BM and Rakata modded for Power/Surge.

 

In Vigilance spec, I can't do much to Prestige because half of my attacks are subject to defense chance, and he is loaded with it from the spec and from Deflection.

 

I'm valor 72, he's Valor 80+, our whole guild is pretty much War Hero/Conqueror and no one can touch him.

 

I think that if you can't successfully use the spec then it is more of a L2P issue.

 

From my own experience with the class and watching guys like Prestige and Amksed, I can say that any problems you have with this spec are skill-related.

 

*** are you talking about, whoever this "prestige" person is they are not the entire class.

 

"wahh ONE person is really good, nerf an entire class because of it"

 

Thats your entire reasoning and because of it the class isnt going to change. Theres a heal BH on my server who is a virtual automatic win for the Imps, unless the entire team is on aboard with spiking him as soon as he shows up its a loss but the whole class doesnt deserve a nerf due to it because the rest fold like paper.

 

Maybe, just maybe this prestige is better then you and your super awesome guildies and Im confident would dick all over you regardless of the class they played. Lrn2ply

[-Sithis-]

Stopped right there.

 

1v1 Unbeatable + ability to guard healer + ability to guard/take nodes in wzs + ability to burst/occupy enemy healers + resilience/sprint in huttball.

 

You must have had some terribly traumatic experience with Group PvP. That is the only conclusion I can come to in light of your blatant denial of the utility of this spec.