PVP Healing in 1.2

[D-bombz]

It can only be really two things.

 

A) They balanced the game only according to PvE completely ignoring impact it would have on PvP

 

B) They decided to listen brainless horde which was crying about "OP sorcerers" and "Healing is OP" which was basically 50-ish new topics every day or so.

 

Its definitely B, their has been lots of QQ threads on the subjects.

 

Bioware doesnt really care about balance as a whole pve/pvp game. Mercs would struggle in nightmare raids yet they nerfed them bad because of their decent survivability in pvp. Sorcs could heal with ez in raids (thanks to the exploit though), so they got nerfed even though their squishy in pvp and can die quickly if focused. They actually just caused more inbalanced issues because of it.

[Daex]

Seriously, why are you complaining about healing in Pvp/ Everyone gets the same nerf, so it will be even. Healing might be less efficient, so people will die more often on your team, but so will they on the opposing team.

 

Non-issue for pvp imo

 

It's getting to a point where it's completely inefficient to be a healer at all, if people feel forced to respecc to dps or quit the game, that's where it becomes a problem.

[Blasphemerr]

Seriously, why are you complaining about healing in Pvp/ Everyone gets the same nerf, so it will be even. Healing might be less efficient, so people will die more often on your team, but so will they on the opposing team.

 

Non-issue for pvp imo

 

Because [we] had something, and now [we] won't. I do enjoy the implied sense of your own personnel perspective in which you've written with, but having perspective is not picking out different point of views, it's understanding all of them, and if you did--you wouldn't be so confused as to why healers are upset.

[TheEvilEeyore]

True, but its a stretch to think he wasn't referring to top end pve content; seeing as how it is already a known issue that top end pve isn't as challenging as most would like. Also, I am assuming you are implying that lvl 50 pvp is included in his explanation. I would argue that if you are referring to pvp, the majority of the population, not being sages/sorcs, would say that top end pvp content is too hard. That is why you nerf a class in pvp, because other classes are having a difficult time against it.

 

I can't know for sure, but the way its worded leads me to believe he is referring to specifically end game pve content.

 

I just got back on so i am a bit behind the post, but i am going to hit on he ones i think need it. This is not a post about PVE balance at all. and the way to balance the difficulty in pve is not by nerfing the healers. It's the most lazy possible approach to making fights harder... "oh looks like those fights aren't very hard for the talented people out there, better *********** **** all over the healers.. that will slow them down." how about some decently hard mechanics bioware? that being said this is a PVP discussion.

 

also saying that people are having a hard time against sage healer? please.. the only reason people are crying about sage is because they are fresh 50's and they get their butt handed to them by a healer.. OF COURSE I SHOULD BEAT YOU IF I AM FULL BM.

 

Any dps who is gear and doesn't suck can **** a sage in short order.. now i have to take 3k hits just to keep my FP up and my only decent heal has a 2.3 second cast time...

[TheEvilEeyore]

"Sorc healers are extremely powerful...PvE endgame content is blown through because one of the two pillars in a ops group (Tanking and Healing) is solidified by a competent, smart Sorc / Sage. Instead of making encounters harder or more healing intensive (such as boss abilities that disable certain members, requiring stronger healers, or at a minimum, two smart healers)...it's an easier fix to make Sorc / Sage healers ineffective and harder to play in an ops healing role. The downside is this "change" is impractable for PvP, where Sorc / Sage already are the squishiest class."

 

 

if this is a quote from bioware.. then someone at bioware needs to get kicked in the nuts. i know that i am going to get a warning from bioware from this but i am starting to not care. they are taking the lazy road on this 100% and they refuse to give any feedback to the community.

[TheEvilEeyore]

Seriously, why are you complaining about healing in Pvp/ Everyone gets the same nerf, so it will be even. Healing might be less efficient, so people will die more often on your team, but so will they on the opposing team.

 

Non-issue for pvp imo

 

you have never played pvp obviously.. my point is what is the point to heal in pvp if you get killed in 3 seconds every time you spawn? then from this point what is the point of pvp at all if the entire thing is just dps for as long as you can till you die? and NO not every healer got nerfed not even close. at least the other healers have SOME form of insta heals. my biggest instant cast heal is on a 6 second cd and hits for 1.3k on a crit.. when dps can consistently put 3-4k hits into me .. it amounts to nothing

[TheEvilEeyore]

 

B) They decided to listen brainless horde which was crying about "OP sorcerers" and "Healing is OP" which was basically 50-ish new topics every day or so.

 

THIS is so annoying.. sorcs are in no way "op" compared to other classes in pvp.. i have played with plenty of fully bm com healers and scoundrel healers.. and i will tell you this.. they have WAAAAAAY more survivability than a sorc. and with this its going to make it a no contest.

[Amshaa]

Here is the question and subsqequent answer by GZ about the healing nerfs in 1.2

 

Niktika: Can you please explain some of the reasoning behind the healing nerfs? It almost seems like every healer is up in arms regardless of their class.

 

Georg: Sometimes it's hard to hear this, but the change to healers you're referring to was, quite simply, a result of them being too good. When one healer is close to target performance and the others aren't, it's natural to think that the logical course is to buff the underperformer and leave the over-performers alone. I want to dispel that notion and explain why it isn't always possible.

 

All specs for all roles have a target performance. This is what drives the balance of the game: soloing, Heroics, PvP, Flashpoints, Operations... everything. When those targets aren't hit, we can't just ‘bring everyone up’ to the highest performer without negatively impacting the balance of the game and creating unsustainable inflation in our combat system. Frankly, it's also a lot more work to change all end game content in the game to compensate for an over-performing role than to bring the role back in line. The hard but simple truth is that Sorcerers and Sages had better Force management than we intended (e.g. a well-played Sage was almost incapable of running out of Force) and Mercenaries and Commandos were significantly over target in their healing performance.

 

After considerable testing, we're more confident than ever that all healing roles are both closer to target performance and closer to one another than ever before, leading to a much tighter balance on end game content. The community will be able to confirm this using the new combat logging feature in Game Update 1.2.

 

I know trying to ‘sell’ a downwards adjustment (AKA nerf) to anyone affected is like selling the need for a tax increase to people. When you are on the receiving end of it, you're not going to be happy about it. It may appear massive to you, even if the overall impact is limited. You likely won't care that it's 'for the greater good of the game' and, if you decide to disagree with our action, there's little we can do to sway you.

 

Based on the feedback brought to us so far from testers playing on PTS along with metrics and combat logs gathered from our guild testers, we are going to make additional adjustments before Game Update 1.2 is promoted to the live servers. For example, we reopened the internal debate about having an in-combat resurrect ability for Mercenaries/Commandos based on PTS feedback regarding the new Operations, in light of the higher utility value this ability brings to the table in 1.2. We're listening to your feedback, too, and rebalancing some of the changes made to healing based on data gathered from PTS. Look out for a future update to PTS for more details.

 

Thanks a lot to TipsyDrow for sharing this on another thread.

 

I agree with the "healers being to good" aspect, so in my opinion, balance was to be maid.

 

But, speaking about what I know : Merc/Commando healer... We are too good on a single target healing performance. On the PvE side, heat/ammo management is mainly easy, but does not forgive that much errors/unexpected events. On the PvP side, heat/ammo management is an issue on each fight lasting more than 35-45 seconds.

 

Ranked WarZones are coming, with its 8 players strategies. Long-lasting fights may trigger more often with the proper group...

 

So, I'd think the 1.2 heat/ammo management, on the PvP standpoint, will be a real struggle for Merc/Commando healers, and in fact the only weak point of the patch for them.

 

Then comes the new expertise values, where damage mitigation will be lower than damage and healing bonus. So, simple math is people will get hit harder, needing then a bigger healing burst to be kept alive. And healing burst needs an effective heat/ammo management.

 

I'd love to have an in-combat resurrect, but fact is, that would be a poor solution. If i can't keep my mates alive anymore, simple math is to respec dps to kill opponents to be more effective to my team, rather than bring one back from the death each 10min...

 

Then again, don't misread me, 1.2 patch is good in most ways. And except for heat/ammo management, i'll sign up for every changes made to Merc/Commando.

 

If I'm posting on this forum, far away from the french one, it's just because I love the game. I won't prentend rage quiting it or unsub pointing how mean people you are. I'd just ask you to keep going in the shape of a class balance which is one of the best I've seen in MMOs : no one is unkillable, no one is harmless.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Amshaa

[Gustehbus]

I just got back on so i am a bit behind the post, but i am going to hit on he ones i think need it. This is not a post about PVE balance at all. and the way to balance the difficulty in pve is not by nerfing the healers. It's the most lazy possible approach to making fights harder... "oh looks like those fights aren't very hard for the talented people out there, better *********** **** all over the healers.. that will slow them down." how about some decently hard mechanics bioware? that being said this is a PVP discussion.

 

also saying that people are having a hard time against sage healer? please.. the only reason people are crying about sage is because they are fresh 50's and they get their butt handed to them by a healer.. OF COURSE I SHOULD BEAT YOU IF I AM FULL BM.

 

Any dps who is gear and doesn't suck can **** a sage in short order.. now i have to take 3k hits just to keep my FP up and my only decent heal has a 2.3 second cast time...

 

I am in complete agreement with you. This post was directed to someone else who had another take on the quote I posted of a dev justifying the nerfs with balancing pve end game content.

 

There are just so many flaws in taking this approach it is mind numbing. You don't punish the players for your miscalculations on content, you fix the content. And to think pvp is barely even in the back of their minds is staggering. The loss of the quick big heal all together is evident of that.

[TheEvilEeyore]

I will never understand how sorc/sage PvP players can think they are on the weak side of the class spectrum, no matter the spec.

 

you will never understand because you probably haven't put the time in to get to BM?

 

healers are so weak against good competent players right now its just silly.

[TheEvilEeyore]

The real change here for the pvp side is resource management. No longer will you be able to sit behind the lines spamming heals and bubbles all day. That's kinda the point we were making about Sorc/Sage heals being too OP. They can literally sit there all day spamming heals and bubbles on themselves and teammates to the point where if there are more than 1 or 2 people who can heal (*note, I said people who can heal, not dedicated healers) it is near impossible to take a single healer down without a coordinated attack of half a team.

 

This really shows up in Voidstar, where healers can set up in the middle around the pillars and basically keep their team alive through very concentrated attacks. Not to mention that their heal spec can still dish out enough internal/elemental damage to be a threat to melee and has utility up the rear to stay alive anyway. Melee is the eternal enemy of healers... right now, all they have to do is stun us, walk away, and heal then they're right back into it with minimal resource loss...

 

Sorc/Sage resource management made them able to heal them AND their team through moderately concentrated attacks with no real threat of running out of resources like the other heal classes do. They can't anymore, and that's the way it should be, since to bring others up to their level, not only do they have to increase healing for the other healers, but then they have to increase DPS so there is still a way to punch through heals, and then, since DPS went up, they then have to rebalance tanks, and it is just a big mess. It is much easier to nerf Sorc/Sage resource management.

 

any healer can sit back and spam healers.. sorcs have no longer range than any other helaing class. and commando's can spam heals for MUCH MUCH longer than sorcs can before running OOF.

 

On your second point. this is exactly my point. ranked wz's are coming with the next patch. do you honestly believe that i will still be able to hide around a corner and heal someone? no i am going to get perma trained from the very start till the end o fthe match which means i am going to spend 90% of the match in the spawn area cause no sorc that exists is going to be able to stay alive longer then about 15-20 seconds ever.

 

Your voidstar point. your opponents must not be very good. because when i play voidstar i am kiting dps around those middle pilar pretty much the whole match just trying to keep myself alive. i can spare my hots for my team mates that is about it.. at this point i am no longer a healer i am just a distraction.

 

Third point... i am sorry but have you ever played with a good commando healer? they can outlast me by far in pvp. if you are actually fighting a fully battle master team there is SOOOO much dmg flying out.. you are healing your nads off the entire fight and generally speaking the commando that i run with can keep the heals going for longer than i can. because he has more survivablity.

 

Resource managment is not the issue here for pvp. not even close. if dps are training a sorc he will go OOF rather quickly in the current patch. i am almos always struggling for force after the first little bit of a match.

 

My argument with this thread has little to nothing to do with pug pvp. i am specifically addressing the fact that on the eve of RATED WZ's they are SEVERELY gimping sorc heals in the context of competitive play. any competent team will be able to zerg down a sorc in 10-15 seconds if not much less.

[Halofax]

This thread is literally a very long way of saying...

 

"How do I heal in pvp if I cant heal myself and 3 other team mates while being attacked by 2 people?"

 

The answer is to be a skilled player.

 

Healing is currently overpowered. If you cant compete when the game isnt extremely easy, go find an easier game.

[TheEvilEeyore]

Thanks a lot to TipsyDrow for sharing this on another thread.

 

I agree with the "healers being to good" aspect, so in my opinion, balance was to be maid.

 

But, speaking about what I know : Merc/Commando healer... We are too good on a single target healing performance. On the PvE side, heat/ammo management is mainly easy, but does not forgive that much errors/unexpected events. On the PvP side, heat/ammo management is an issue on each fight lasting more than 35-45 seconds.

 

Ranked WarZones are coming, with its 8 players strategies. Long-lasting fights may trigger more often with the proper group...

 

So, I'd think the 1.2 heat/ammo management, on the PvP standpoint, will be a real struggle for Merc/Commando healers, and in fact the only weak point of the patch for them.

 

Then comes the new expertise values, where damage mitigation will be lower than damage and healing bonus. So, simple math is people will get hit harder, needing then a bigger healing burst to be kept alive. And healing burst needs an effective heat/ammo management.

 

I'd love to have an in-combat resurrect, but fact is, that would be a poor solution. If i can't keep my mates alive anymore, simple math is to respec dps to kill opponents to be more effective to my team, rather than bring one back from the death each 10min...

 

Then again, don't misread me, 1.2 patch is good in most ways. And except for heat/ammo management, i'll sign up for every changes made to Merc/Commando.

 

If I'm posting on this forum, far away from the french one, it's just because I love the game. I won't prentend rage quiting it or unsub pointing how mean people you are. I'd just ask you to keep going in the shape of a class balance which is one of the best I've seen in MMOs : no one is unkillable, no one is harmless.

 

 

Um i am sorry. this is NOT a PVE healing discussion and saying that healers are currently "too good" in pvp is an asinine comment. the BIGGEST the difference between how much damage any dps can put out single target and what someone can heal single target is just mind boggling. now you take into consideration that said healer is being trained with as much interrupts as this game has? ... pvp is broke as of 1.2 and they are releasing rated wz's.

 

also i have little to no faith in anything that this "george" character says.

[Halofax]

Um i am sorry. this is NOT a PVE healing discussion and saying that healers are currently "too good" in pvp is an asinine comment. the BIGGEST the difference between how much damage any dps can put out single target and what someone can heal single target is just mind boggling. now you take into consideration that said healer is being trained with as much interrupts as this game has? ... pvp is broke as of 1.2 and they are releasing rated wz's.

 

also i have little to no faith in anything that this "george" character says.

 

I think you are confusing your ability to write giant paragraphs about pvp with knowledge about how PVP works.

 

You cant write it as thick as you want on paper, but you are just saying you wont pvp if it isnt easy for you.

[TheEvilEeyore]

This thread is literally a very long way of saying...

 

"How do I heal in pvp if I cant heal myself and 3 other team mates while being attacked by 2 people?"

 

The answer is to be a skilled player.

 

Healing is currently overpowered. If you cant compete when the game isnt extremely easy, go find an easier game.

 

this really doesn't deserve a comment but i will venture it anyways... i have been healing competitively in pvp environment for a LONG time. so i can assure you that skill has little to do with the fact that 1-2 dps can train a healer and interrupt every cast he tries and kill him well before his resolve bar ever hits 100%.

 

so please enlighten me on how you stay alive vs. 2 fully battlemaster dps sticking to you like glue. i am all ears.

[Xaelion]

The only changes that needed to be made to bring Sorcerers in line

 

1) The consumption change

 

2) The double proc on Force Bending bug

 

 

Changing the Force Bending proc on Dark Infusion was just a kick to the nuts. It goes beyond bringing us in line if the point of the nerfs was to restructure force management. It renders this ability completely useless in PvP unless you're playing against a team who doesn't understand the concept of interupts. There are way too many stuns, knockbacks, and interupts in this game to push this change through w/out having a negative impact on PvP.

[TheEvilEeyore]

The only changes that needed to be made to bring Sorcerers in line

 

1) The consumption change

 

2) The double proc on Force Bending bug

 

 

Changing the Force Bending proc on Dark Infusion was just a kick to the nuts. It goes beyond bringing us in line if the point of the nerfs was to restructure force management. It renders this ability completely useless in PvP unless you're playing against a team who doesn't understand the concept of interupts. There are way too many stuns, knockbacks, and interupts in this game to push this change through w/out having a negative impact on PvP.

 

this is pretty much been my argument from day one. Consumption change blows. but you could probably deal with it.. you add the change to force bending/conveyance.. its good game pack your bags. one or the other would not have been bad .. but both? really.

 

the change doesnt even make sense. the only thing that i can guess is something liek this happened: derp 1"we have sorcs double tapping dark infusion via the force bending buff because the buff drops at the end of the cast." derp 2 "we could make it consume the stack at the begining and fix it" derp 1 "... i am not sure how to do that, lets just change it." derp 1 and derp 2 *high five*.

[Gustehbus]

The only changes that needed to be made to bring Sorcerers in line

 

1) The consumption change

 

2) The double proc on Force Bending bug

 

I agree that the mechanic that allowed consumption to be used at no cost needed to be weakened, but not this much.

 

Maybe an internal cool down on the proc? like every 20-30 seconds? Or make it only a 50% chance to proc on an innervate crit. Or make the skill that reduces the health lost actually worth getting. Forcing sorcs to sacrifice their health for force no matter what is a little over the top. We are already to the easiest healer to kill.

[Halofax]

The real problem here is that people are assuming that PVP healing is balanced right now and there are nerfs being implemented.

 

According to GZ, healing is overpowered right now, and it is being fixed.

 

So all these proposed changes you all think should be made are not relevant.

 

Especially considering the people making the propositions assume they are really good players when they might not be good at all.

 

Game balance is not relative to your personal experience as a sorcerer.

[TheEvilEeyore]

I agree that the mechanic that allowed consumption to be used at no cost needed to be weakened, but not this much.

 

Maybe an internal cool down on the proc? like every 20-30 seconds? Or make it only a 50% chance to proc on an innervate crit. Or make the skill that reduces the health lost actually worth getting. Forcing sorcs to sacrifice their health for force no matter what is a little over the top. We are already to the easiest healer to kill.

 

I think if they reduced the amount of dmg through the skill by 1/2 it would not be such a big deal.. as it stands you get 50 force back at the expense of 15% hp. the other thing is you will rarely ever get a proc when you are being trained.. you are interupted usually before the second tick even gets a chance which means you have a roughly 35% chance to get the proc every 8 second.. ****** string of luck lands me with 0 force and no procs like 5 attempts in a row at times.

 

I am willing to admit that the proc's needed tuning but to combine it with the other changes shows a lack of clear thought on biowares part.

 

that converts to me loosing 3k hp so that i can cast a heal that hits for ~3k.. net gain = 0. oh it should be mentioned that that heal also takes 2.5 seconds to cast now to. so we can say goodbye to that. so replace 3k heal with 1.2k heal

[TheEvilEeyore]

The real problem here is that people are assuming that PVP healing is balanced right now and there are nerfs being implemented.

 

According to GZ, healing is overpowered right now, and it is being fixed.

 

So all these proposed changes you all think should be made are not relevant.

 

Especially considering the people making the propositions assume they are really good players when they might not be good at all.

 

Game balance is not relative to your personal experience as a sorcerer.

 

You have absolutley no idea what youa re talking about.. This is a PVP discussion. and anyone who is actually 50 and has decent gear will tell you 100% that healers are not 'overpowered' we are powerful enough to last for a little while against 1 dps.. put another dps with him and its run away or die. if you even can run away. And when i pvp with healers of every class type and spec i can assure you i know exactly what is "balanced" for pvp right now. and healers of every type are severely gimp compared to dps.

 

still waiting for your wisdom as to how i can play my class better to be more survivable btw.

Edited March 24, 2012 by TheEvilEeyore

[skotish]

I am sorry but the sage/trooper healers on lord calypho want a word with you these guys on the rep side are unstoppable and its the way they combine their pre mades and props to them they know how strong that combination is and are using the op healing mechanics to great effect so dry your eyes easy mode has finished for you well done GZ and BW:p

[Gustehbus]

The real problem here is that people are assuming that PVP healing is balanced right now and there are nerfs being implemented.

 

According to GZ, healing is overpowered right now, and it is being fixed.

 

So all these proposed changes you all think should be made are not relevant.

 

Especially considering the people making the propositions assume they are really good players when they might not be good at all.

 

Game balance is not relative to your personal experience as a sorcerer.

 

Where to start?

 

One, we don't assume pvp healing is balanced. Sorc/sages are bugged, and we do perform better than intended. We are arguing for only the bug fix and maybe a slight alteration to the force regen mechanic, not gutting it completely.

 

Two, GZ is a person. Everything that spills out of his mouth isn't true for some divine reason. Try forming your own opinion with hard facts.

 

Three, If game balance isn't relative to someone's experience with their class what is? You play the game with a class. Everything you do in the game is relative to your experience with that class, including judging game balance...

[TheEvilEeyore]

I am sorry but the sage/trooper healers on lord calypho want a word with you these guys on the rep side are unstoppable and its the way they combine their pre mades and props to them they know how strong that combination is and are using the op healing mechanics to great effect so dry your eyes easy mode has finished for you well done GZ and BW:p

 

you are losing to a premade as you should 100% of the time.. the reason they are a premade is because they are working together.. counter it with a premade of yourself and you will see that healers aren't as 'op' as everyone is crying.

 

i wanted to elaborate on this.. i play with premades almost every time i play and we roll over people in anything but huttball. My server is SEVERELY republic heavy which means that huttball is pub vs pub 95% of the time. which means we generally have premades going against premades. and i can tell you .. co-ordinated strikes on healers = gg.. you are experiencing the woes of being on the less populated side of your server or you are under geared. we crush imp teams every time civil war and voidstar spawn because they are severely under geared compared to repub side and they lack any kind of team play.

 

this post is 100% about ranked wz's if you didn't take the time to read through it then don't post simple as that.

Edited March 24, 2012 by TheEvilEeyore

[Gustehbus]

I am sorry but the sage/trooper healers on lord calypho want a word with you these guys on the rep side are unstoppable and its the way they combine their pre mades and props to them they know how strong that combination is and are using the op healing mechanics to great effect so dry your eyes easy mode has finished for you well done GZ and BW:p

 

so...much...ignorance...