You don't have to train the passive leap/stun

[kuey]

I dont see why it generates resolve tbh...its not like its a huge stun its really only a tool to keep you from being insta punted most of the time.

 

Yes... and no.

 

PvE, sure, the 2 seconds isn't that game changing, in PvE the content isn't difficult enough to pressure you into relying on that 2sec stun.

 

PvP, it's huge. What would you say to ops/scoundrel knockdown opener generating no resolve? That stun is 1.5sec and it already causes enough chaos and just like their knockdown skill. Leap can also be used as an opener, if so desired (though I don't usually use it as one unless necessary). Personally I agree with the idea that it should remain a talented skill, juggling your enemies resolve can often win battles.

[Smashbrother]

Yes... and no.

 

PvE, sure, the 2 seconds isn't that game changing, in PvE the content isn't difficult enough to pressure you into relying on that 2sec stun.

 

PvP, it's huge. What would you say to ops/scoundrel knockdown opener generating no resolve? That stun is 1.5sec and it already causes enough chaos and just like their knockdown skill. Leap can also be used as an opener, if so desired (though I don't usually use it as one unless necessary). Personally I agree with the idea that it should remain a talented skill, juggling your enemies resolve can often win battles.

 

They're two completely diff things. Leap is a gap closer, something every guardian of every spec HAS to use, and pretty much always use when its up.

 

The scoundrel stun is an attack. It's like our force stasis, or hilt strike, or the bajillion other attacks that stun. They all add resolve because they're attaacks.

[ALDrinkwater]

I had reservations about Force Clap when I first read about it. But after testing it on the PTS I can honestly say it has grown on me and I am enjoying it. The stun only lands every 12 secs.

 

This may require a few tactic changes in Competitive PVP and Ranked Warzones, but overall, it is a good addition that many people will find extremely usefull.

 

 

In the immortal words of all PVP people. Stop the QQ, adapt or die.

 

I and many others would like to see Force clap stay the way it is on PTS.

 

QFT. my powertech is getting changed, dont see me QQing about it.

[Smashbrother]

QFT. my powertech is getting changed, dont see me QQing about it.

 

There are tons of people crying about the powertech nerfs. Especially the pyro change, which I don't consider to be a nerf or buff. It just made pyro less RNG reliant, which is always a good thing.

 

How would you like it if your storm or w/e your leap ability is called added 40% resolve every time you used it?

[ALDrinkwater]

There are tons of people crying about the powertech nerfs. Especially the pyro change, which I don't consider to be a nerf or buff. It just made pyro less RNG reliant, which is always a good thing.

 

How would you like it if your storm or w/e your leap ability is called added 40% resolve every time you used it?

 

tbh, id just be happy to et another stun. if you know how to manage another players resolve bar then it doesnt become an issue.

[Smashbrother]

tbh, id just be happy to et another stun. if you know how to manage another players resolve bar then it doesnt become an issue.

 

In a 1v1, you'd be right. Too bad game's not based around 1v1s. With the amount of CCs flying around, having an additional 40% added everytime we gap close is terrible. It's not like we can avoid using our gap closer or anything. Look many guardians, including me, have tested this worthless skill at end game pvp, and no one takes it because it does more harm then good.

 

Also, this 2 sec stun does nothing. Our leap already interrupts AND roots. What additional benefit does having a 2 sec stun do for us? Nothing.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Smashbrother

[ALDrinkwater]

In a 1v1, you'd be right. Too bad game's not based around 1v1s. With the amount of CCs flying around, having an additional 40% added everytime we gap close is terrible. It's not like we can avoid using our gap closer or anything.

 

Also, this 2 sec stun does nothing. Our leap already interrupts AND roots. What additional benefit does having a 2 sec stun do for us? Nothing.

 

ok i'll QQ about grapple causeing resolve shall i? you just have to learn to play with it in your arsenal, i really cant see the problem. your getting a stun free, if the opposite player has full resolve, your closing the gap, so, you can use your main attacks, if they have high resolve then your stun them, and fill their resolve bar up, but your close enough to use your main attacks, cant see an issue.

[britane]

since we're getting this stun (probably) are we sure the leap will still even have a root and an interrupt? or are the devs thinking, instead of giving two things, "we'll just make them a stun which does both..."

 

Personally I don't like this one bit, I don't remotely see the POINT of it.

[JackMinn]

The change is blatantly a nerf, whether the nerf is justified or not is another issue however wasnt the debate at hand.

 

To highlight why this is a nerf:

 

Ball carriers at full CC cannot be lept to to prevent them from moving, as roots do not consider the resolve bar but stuns do. Thus we can not hinder the movement of a ball carrier.

 

Leap force push was common on either a ball carrier or on a player to push them to where you want to leap. Now with the leap filling resolve its quite possible that once the leap is carried out the push will be prevented by the resolve bar.

 

The generic combo of leap --> stasis ---> push ---> leap will not work as I believe the leap stun and stasis stun will be enough to fill the resolve negating the push.

 

Now if the leap still roots and interrupts along with stunning then this nerf is minute as it can be adjusted to. The amount of situations that the leap will be a hinderance will be minimal, however its in those few clutch moments that a close hutball match is won or lost. However I can live with losing the full control of CC application I had. So long as the leap still roots and interrupts regardless of the stun.

[Marqhill]

Where is anyone even getting this info? Who said anything about them getting rid of the stun/interrupt abilities in Force Leap. Allow me to clarify for you all.

 

1) Yes it still Roots. If it didn't root then they would have gotten rid of the ability called Stagger altogether rather than having moved it to the Vigilance skill tree. Rooting your target doesn't effect resolve so even if the target is at full resolve a Force Leap that hits will still Immobilize them. That immobilize could, as it is now, be the difference between killing a ball handler in huttball and not killing them. The Stun, on the other hand, could be the difference between them passing the ball before they die, or not passing it and dying. That's something that all Guardians can do now. Awesome right?

 

2) It still interrupts regardless of resolve. What information lead you to believe that it wouldn't? All Bioware did was add a stun. Playing on the PTS I found that I was far more able to perform in war zones pre-50 with my Guardian having that passive stun ability.

 

3) During my time on the PTS I was able to Force Leap to a target, Force Stasis that same target and then Force Push them and their resolve bar would only be filled by the time I hit them with the Force Push. Even so, why would you really need to stasis them anyway? With the immobilize effect of Force Leap it's currently pretty easy to position yourself for a directional Force Push as it is. Currently though the problem is that if you try to do that then you'll be knocked back before you can set up that perfect Force Push. With the passive stun you'll have 2 seconds to set yourself up for a Force Push without being knocked back.

 

I really don't see how the added flexibility with no loss is being seen as a nerf. I swear, people on this forum were going to complain no matter what Bioware did.

[Smashbrother]

ok i'll QQ about grapple causeing resolve shall i? you just have to learn to play with it in your arsenal, i really cant see the problem. your getting a stun free, if the opposite player has full resolve, your closing the gap, so, you can use your main attacks, if they have high resolve then your stun them, and fill their resolve bar up, but your close enough to use your main attacks, cant see an issue.

 

Grapple causes resolve because it moves someone else. Kind of like how my force push adds resolve. They are two completely diff things.

 

Because once they have a full resolve bar, they will break it and now they are immune to CC. This is extremely terrible if that target happens to be a healer or ball carrier.

[Smashbrother]

Where is anyone even getting this info? Who said anything about them getting rid of the stun/interrupt abilities in Force Leap. Allow me to clarify for you all.

 

1) Yes it still Roots. If it didn't root then they would have gotten rid of the ability called Stagger altogether rather than having moved it to the Vigilance skill tree. Rooting your target doesn't effect resolve so even if the target is at full resolve a Force Leap that hits will still Immobilize them. That immobilize could, as it is now, be the difference between killing a ball handler in huttball and not killing them. The Stun, on the other hand, could be the difference between them passing the ball before they die, or not passing it and dying. That's something that all Guardians can do now. Awesome right?

 

2) It still interrupts regardless of resolve. What information lead you to believe that it wouldn't? All Bioware did was add a stun. Playing on the PTS I found that I was far more able to perform in war zones pre-50 with my Guardian having that passive stun ability.

 

3) During my time on the PTS I was able to Force Leap to a target, Force Stasis that same target and then Force Push them and their resolve bar would only be filled by the time I hit them with the Force Push. Even so, why would you really need to stasis them anyway? With the immobilize effect of Force Leap it's currently pretty easy to position yourself for a directional Force Push as it is. Currently though the problem is that if you try to do that then you'll be knocked back before you can set up that perfect Force Push. With the passive stun you'll have 2 seconds to set yourself up for a Force Push without being knocked back.

 

I really don't see how the added flexibility with no loss is being seen as a nerf. I swear, people on this forum were going to complain no matter what Bioware did.

 

No one cares about how useful it might be in sub-50 WZs. All that matters is end game pvp, and forceclap is *********** terrible. It adds unneeded resolve to ball carriers and healers making it harder to kill them. I've used this talent on live, and it's terrible. Anyone good knows how terrible this is, and that is why there is such backlash.

[Marqhill]

No one cares about how useful it might be in sub-50 WZs. All that matters is end game pvp, and forceclap is *********** terrible. It adds unneeded resolve to ball carriers and healers making it harder to kill them. I've used this talent on live, and it's terrible. Anyone good knows how terrible this is, and that is why there is such backlash.

 

If you don't know how to make a FREE STUN work for you in PvP at any level then you're a terrible player. That's the craziest crap I've ever heard. Force Clap is one of the 2 things that I miss from the Defense tree.

[Smashbrother]

If you don't know how to make a FREE STUN work for you in PvP at any level then you're a terrible player. That's the craziest crap I've ever heard. Force Clap is one of the 2 things that I miss from the Defense tree.

 

Dude it's only 2s. The GCD is 1.5s. If the stun was longer, it wouldn't be so bad, but it's only 2s. Having a 2s stun adds nothing for our gameplay except to add 40% resolve.

 

Forceclap should have been an active ability that made our next damaging attack do a 2s stun, so we can control and decide how to use it. Being forced to give everyone 40% resolve everytime we leap is not good for gameplay.

 

Only baddies ever took that talent.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Smashbrother

[kuey]

They're two completely diff things. Leap is a gap closer, something every guardian of every spec HAS to use, and pretty much always use when its up.

 

The scoundrel stun is an attack. It's like our force stasis, or hilt strike, or the bajillion other attacks that stun. They all add resolve because they're attaacks.

 

Please refrain from commenting on other classes skills if you know nothing about them. Shoot first is not a stun attack, it is talented to become a stun attack (much how leap attack originally work). It's the scoundrel opener that grants UH in order to use many of their skills and hence has much more value than merely a stun.

[Smashbrother]

Please refrain from commenting on other classes skills if you know nothing about them. Shoot first is not a stun attack, it is talented to become a stun attack (much how leap attack originally work). It's the scoundrel opener that grants UH in order to use many of their skills and hence has much more value than merely a stun.

 

It's actually talented to knock down, not stun. There is a diff. Stuns can be cleansed. It's a moot point though, I used stun attack because that's what you said. Doesn't matter whether you have to talent for the stun or not, it's still an attack and not a gap closer. Also, shoot first is only useable from stealth, so it's not something you can spam, so you won't be adding resolve to targets left and right. Our leap only has a 15 sec cd, and we have to spam it due to how much knockbacks there are in the game.

 

Plus, you CHOOSE to get that talent. In 1.2, forceclap is FORCED onto us. I'm perfectly fine with it remaining a talent like it is on live. I just don't want to be forced to take something so terrible. But if we're forced to take a ****** stun on our gap closer, it shouldn't add resolve. Kind of like how warrior charge didn't give DR.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Smashbrother

[Aetou]

I don't take K.O. on my Scrapper since it was reduced in duration. I don't take Forceclap on my Defense Guardian. I don't want to be forced to give people extra resolve just by getting into position to attack them.

 

Making it a Tier 1 Defense skill would let everyone who wants it have it very easily while letting the rest of us avoid it equally easily. It's a simple solution, one can only hope BW listen to the community about it.

[Mikster_]

Weirdly, enough I find the force clap a buff. Even though my unremitting will last for one second, Vig spec guardians in patch 1.2 are going to have Stagger. So now we force charge ( 2 second stun) then we have a 1 second root. It's almost like a 3 second stun! Just like Choke/Stasis.

[LarryRow]

I had reservations about Force Clap when I first read about it. But after testing it on the PTS I can honestly say it has grown on me and I am enjoying it. The stun only lands every 12 secs.

 

This may require a few tactic changes in Competitive PVP and Ranked Warzones, but overall, it is a good addition that many people will find extremely usefull.

 

 

In the immortal words of all PVP people. Stop the QQ, adapt or die.

 

I and many others would like to see Force clap stay the way it is on PTS.

 

You are still giving too much free resolve out, period, end of story. A lot of top players don't even spec into Force Clap for this reason.

 

I think all we really want is for the devs to come out and say, "Oops, sorry, we goofed, this is a case of unintended consequences" OR "This was an intentional nerf"

[DSafana]

This is an interesting discussion. The hard -core PVP people don't like the extra resolve for very good reasons, and the rest of the community thinks they are QQ'ing for no good reason.

This is simple, If you don't play in PVP pre-mades that calculate your rotations among one another to get the desired results, you'll never understand the impact this has.

If you play PVE or PUGs, you won't understand the problem.

This issue will hit hardest for the hard-core PVP pre-made groups in Rated warzones, This is not a good thing for serious pvp'ers. SWTOR is not designed for serious PVP and this change makes that obvious.

And just so you know, I am not a serious PVP'r running in pre-mades, so I'm not qq'ing, I'm just understanding the issue.

[Marqhill]

Dude it's only 2s. The GCD is 1.5s. If the stun was longer, it wouldn't be so bad, but it's only 2s. Having a 2s stun adds nothing for our gameplay except to add 40% resolve.

 

Forceclap should have been an active ability that made our next damaging attack do a 2s stun, so we can control and decide how to use it. Being forced to give everyone 40% resolve everytime we leap is not good for gameplay.

 

Only baddies ever took that talent.

 

A 2 second stun can be the difference between being knocked back off a railing in hutt ball or positioning yourself so that the knock back that's coming won't effectively knock you out of the game. A 2 second stun can be the difference between that healer getting off whatever mega ridiculous heal he needs to stay alive or not getting it off and then being dispatched. A 2 second stun can be the difference between someone killing your or you killing them.

 

Like I said before, if you're a DPS and you can't make use of a 2 second stun then you're just a bad player. That's all. Jedi Sentinels would KILL for a 2 second stun on their Force Leap.

[Noth]

A 2 second stun can be the difference between being knocked back off a railing in hutt ball or positioning yourself so that the knock back that's coming won't effectively knock you out of the game. A 2 second stun can be the difference between that healer getting off whatever mega ridiculous heal he needs to stay alive or not getting it off and then being dispatched. A 2 second stun can be the difference between someone killing your or you killing them.

 

Like I said before, if you're a DPS and you can't make use of a 2 second stun then you're just a bad player. That's all. Jedi Sentinels would KILL for a 2 second stun on their Force Leap.

 

bolded part, leap already did without the stun, because it had a built in interrupt.

 

You are ignoring other problems such as leap now filling the resolve which means he's able to be CC'd less. This would allow that dps to possibly kill you, that healer get off that heal, that player to knock you off.

[Satsujinki]

A 2 second stun can be the difference between being knocked back off a railing in hutt ball or positioning yourself so that the knock back that's coming won't effectively knock you out of the game. A 2 second stun can be the difference between that healer getting off whatever mega ridiculous heal he needs to stay alive or not getting it off and then being dispatched. A 2 second stun can be the difference between someone killing your or you killing them.

 

Like I said before, if you're a DPS and you can't make use of a 2 second stun then you're just a bad player. That's all. Jedi Sentinels would KILL for a 2 second stun on their Force Leap.

 

The reason sentinels wouldn't hate a Stun on Leap is because they only have Stasis and they do not have Unremmiting. Chances are if a Sentinel had the choice they would 25 times out of 10 pick Unremmiting over Force Clap unless of course they enjoy filling someones resolve bar without getting anything out of it.

[Malissant]

I've had force clap talented since I got up that high in the tree. Never had a problem with any of the situations you guys are throwing around in PvP. It adds extra resolve, yes - so you work with it, it isn't game breaking - I appreciate them moving it to a passive ability and freeing up an extra point for me in the talent tree.