Blamminator Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 It is funny that all of the raid content has been cleared without any dps meters. How did that happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genesiser Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 didn't have them in EQ. Didn't have them for a long while in Wow. We still cleared content. What damage meters did was allow people to min max, and therefore trivialize content. This, in turn, required the development team to ramp up and fine tune their content around mods rather then player interest. The cycle continued until the last few dungeons in wow were so unforgiving that the loss of a single dps could cause you to miss the enrage timer. It required everyone to "ramp up", min, max, and spend more time working outside of raids then they did doing the actual raid. Meters are a canard. They do not make content "easier", they just begin a cycle of ****** content up to implosion, which is what occurred in Wow with the collapse of the casual guild and the eventual migration away from the game. They are a crutch. They are not needed. they are short sighted. People are completing content without them. So you don't like them because it forces devs to make content harder and making people avoid standing in fire and having each person survive the fight to ensure victory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_of_Stone Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 And your favourite mmo just left with them. I think the fact that only 38% of SWTOR players have even played an Op says that hardcore raiders make up a VERY small minority (given that I doubt every single player in that 38% is a min maxer, since I myself have played several ops, just for fun). So I think SWTOR will do just fine without them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blamminator Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 This topic always brings out those bad guys with bad specs. They say no to meters. What he meant to say was "Those guys that dont you the exact spec that I do" That is the point to talent trees, for everyone to use the exact same ones after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleyz Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 It is funny that all of the raid content has been cleared without any dps meters. How did that happen? Simple, easy, casual content. Thats why every mmo player thinks there great now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genesiser Posted March 20, 2012 Author Share Posted March 20, 2012 I think the fact that only 38% of SWTOR players have even played an Op says that hardcore raiders make up a VERY small minority (given that I doubt every single player in that 38% is a min maxer, since I myself have played several ops, just for fun). So I think SWTOR will do just fine without them. That 38% was level 50s, not accounts with a level 50. I have two level 50s and only raid with one of them. See how that skews their data? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blamminator Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Simple, easy, casual content. Thats why every mmo player thinks there great now. No, most are just having fun... in a game... go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tewnam Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 didn't have them in EQ. Didn't have them for a long while in Wow. We still cleared content. What damage meters did was allow people to min max, and therefore trivialize content. This, in turn, required the development team to ramp up and fine tune their content around mods rather then player interest. The cycle continued until the last few dungeons in wow were so unforgiving that the loss of a single dps could cause you to miss the enrage timer. It required everyone to "ramp up", min, max, and spend more time working outside of raids then they did doing the actual raid. Meters are a canard. They do not make content "easier", they just begin a cycle of ****** content up to implosion, which is what occurred in Wow with the collapse of the casual guild and the eventual migration away from the game. They are a crutch. They are not needed. they are short sighted. People are completing content without them. Hear hear. Exactly my thoughts as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phycosis Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) It is funny that all of the raid content has been cleared without any dps meters. How did that happen? Because the Raids in this game are a joke. Our guild hit max level first week and defeated Evault week 1. I've had harder Dungeons in Rift.... Not that I am in favor of DPS Meters.. Either way is fine (I play a healer). But Enrage timers are a joke. But once you get Rakatta, they don't much matter anyways. Edited March 20, 2012 by Phycosis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_of_Stone Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Threat notification and target of target are very different then damage meters, and I don't think that we can group them all together. Threat notification simply informs the individual (the tank) that they have threat. This is necessary in a game where we cannot actually feel (or in many cases) see who the target is attacking, especially with multiple targets. The same with target of target. These are simply tools that will help with the focus on the game in real time. I see them as no different then floating combat text. Damage meters are vastly different. No, they are tools that distract from gameplay. I have a level 34 vanguard tank. I group for every heroic and flashpoint that comes my way. Its easily apparent in most situations when I have generated threat, and which mobs are attacking me. I can also easily see which of my part members are being shot at. A decent tank will pay attention to all the mobs in the fight. As long as there isnt another party member literally standing on the tank, its pretty obvious who has aggro. Bioware has literally stated that they do NOT have these features in the game "because they force the player to look at numbers, instead of the fight". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOnlyKyrenS Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Enrage timers are there to pose a challenge and to try to max out your dps. The logs that are coming out are fine. We don't need a meter. I don't want this game to become a numbers game like WoW did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blamminator Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Because the Raids in this game are a joke. Our guild hit max level first week and defeated Evault week 1. I've had harder Dungeons in Rift.... If you are so awesome them why do you need DPS meters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackardin Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 This topic always brings out those bad guys with bad specs. They say no to meters. Actually, it tends to bring about name calling and misinformation. ;p I've tanked everything in every game since UO. I've lead guilds, lead raids, had server firsts, completed hard modes etc. I'm as strong and capable as any of those professing to be "good", if not better....and I am against them. In fact, I would argue that they are a crutch requested by those that are really not as "good" as they say they are, that can't defeat tough bosses, or lead a raid without those crutches. See what I did there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_of_Stone Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 That 38% was level 50s, not accounts with a level 50. I have two level 50s and only raid with one of them. See how that skews their data? Not particularly. Although I didnt know it was just level 50s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phycosis Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) If you are so awesome them why do you need DPS meters? erm, read again.. I DON"T need one and am not advocating for one. Someone asked a question and I answered it... Enrage timers was what I also commented on. Edited March 20, 2012 by Phycosis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleyz Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Lets just agree to disagree. Insecureties all round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blamminator Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I could use a hug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmarer Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) What he meant to say was "Those guys that dont you the exact spec that I do" That is the point to talent trees, for everyone to use the exact same ones after all. No need of dps meters for that, as soon as combat logs are available, optimal min/maxed builds will be posted all over the class forums and, if SWTOR players follow other MMO trend, a noticeable amount of them will change their spec to the optimal one. That will evidence that some AC talents/trees are useless and devs will have to either leave them as they are or implement further balancing (which is scary to say the least) to bring said talent trees on par with the best performing ones, but hey, it's the thing talent tree MMOs, there is THE build and pretty much everything else besides said build is useless except for experimental soloing. I don't mind either combat logs or dps meters, they're useful tools if used right and nasty tools if used wrong so the problem is not the meter, it's how people use it, I just highly doubt devs have a clue of which ground they're stepping into by implementing them.- Edited March 20, 2012 by Nightmarer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleyz Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Actually, it tends to bring about name calling and misinformation. ;p I've tanked everything in every game since UO. I've lead guilds, lead raids, had server firsts, completed hard modes etc. I'm as strong and capable as any of those professing to be "good", if not better....and I am against them. In fact, I would argue that they are a crutch requested by those that are really not as "good" as they say they are, that can't defeat tough bosses, or lead a raid without those crutches. See what I did there? My resume reads quite similar. But we used meters. Our server firsts were on competitive servers though. Zing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ujest Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) Enrage timers is one of the stupidest features in newer MMOs. It's ridiculous. Enrage (timer or damage) have been a normal part of MMOs since shortly after the beginning. Besides, enraging is also part and parcel of many modern action films; the good guy/gal gets beat down, is lying on the ground bloodied and broken, they then reach deep inside to find the will to go on, gets mad and makes a unbelievable come back to finally defeat the bad guy. Why can not mobs do the same thing? Edited March 20, 2012 by Ujest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackardin Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 So you don't like them because it forces devs to make content harder and making people avoid standing in fire and having each person survive the fight to ensure victory? No. I don't like them because it tends to lead to your type of desired play....where "wining" the next fight becomes the entire focus of the MMORPG and turns it from that into an MMO shooter, where "hard core" is the order of the day, where people start calling each other "bad" and standing infront of the bank showing off their new purplez as if someone actually cares. In short, where it becomes attractive only to 13 year olds drinking jolt and eating cheetos. ;p That's fine if they enjoy that type of game, but not with my game. Wow has that. Why would one leave that game if they like that? Why would they come to a new game and then seek to make it the same as the game they just left? Its all just short cited desire for immediate gratification is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewser Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Yes, because standing still fighting a dummy is the same thing as fighting a boss with actual mechanics that require movement and other such mechanics, right? Those logs are available as well but my way will give you a good baseline before even setting foot in an operation to see where everyone stands. In an 8 man, if 4 of your DPS are way ahead of the 5th, it might be a good idea to see if how the 5th can be improved prior to starting the operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blamminator Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 My resume reads quite similar. But we used meters. Our server firsts were on competitive servers though. Zing I dont see how that was a zing. At least you did admit you had to do it with meters, where he and his guild relied on skill. ZING!!! I can do them too!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewser Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 That 38% was level 50s, not accounts with a level 50. I have two level 50s and only raid with one of them. See how that skews their data? It doesn't skew anything because they clearly stated 38% of 50s have tried ops. They did not imply or infer anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleyz Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I dont see how that was a zing. At least you did admit you had to do it with meters, where he and his guild relied on skill. ZING!!! I can do them too!!! /hug ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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