Operative vs Assassin

[DarkDruidSS]

Mouth breather backpedaler clickers not in question. OR you meant that u have irl friends who play operative and you want to pvp with them?

 

Why do you dodge the question? Player skill level is irrelevant,if you meant as who would you pick in your team and not what class would YOU play, assume equal awesome skill level capable of rank 1 in any pvp environment players.

 

Skill is only irrelevant to the skill-less. I don't need to see rated figures to tell me the people I run with are amongst the top in the server. These people could play any class and be top of the line. Do we have a operative in our group? Yes. He is a healer. He is a very good healer. Would we take a DPS operative? Depends on his skill as a DPS operative.

 

I will pick the player, not the class.

[Dmasterr]

But if it is, ill bite my tounge.

 

UUU, that's a bit harsh, maybe admit that you were wrong, not physically hurt yourself irl .

 

My point is that while operatives are NOT useless, in a team game with limited spots (not illum, but WZ's) other classes are more useful and perform better, which results in the team that brings operatives in gimping themselves.

 

Skill is irrelevant to the skill-less and top end players where skill difference is so small it is irrelevant

 

Fixed that for you.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Dmasterr

[DarkDruidSS]

Operatives are still useful. You can take any class in the game and argue a use for them. Remember that we are not talking team death match here. These warzones have objectives. Even in a TDM I would still argue that a couple of our concealment operatives in my guild are very worth taking on a team.

 

But you can keep kidding yourself and crying foul about other classes. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Judging from your posts though, I would not take you. You clearly don't know your class that well.

[mandaboo]

UUU, that's a bit harsh, maybe admit that you were wrong, not physically hurt yourself irl .

 

My point is that while operatives are NOT useless, in a team game with limited spots (not illum, but WZ's) other classes are more useful and perform better, which results in the team that brings operatives in gimping themselves.

 

 

 

Fixed that for you.

 

 

To make this type of post before we have damage math to work with is not responsible and cannot be taken seriously by anyone.

 

Bioware has the math and before we call them crazy let us get it and study it.

[Kai-Eurah-Tird]

Why play an DPS operative vs an tank assassin? (you can compare operative healer to other healers, this thread is about dps)

 

 

This is a comparison of most important tools of those 2 classes (specs). Yellow highlights are to show which is better.

 

Operative | Assassins

 

Burst damage - good | / Burst damage -good

 

Damage mitigation 20-25%~ | Damage mitigation 45-50%~

 

Stealth | Stealth

 

Vanish | Vanish

 

hidden strike 1.5s stun | Spike - 2s stun (talented doesn't require stealth)

 

4 sec generic stun 4 yards | 4 sec generic stun 30 yards

 

Evasion 1 min cd immune to white dmg 3sec | Force shroud 45 sec cd, immune to everything except white dmg for 5 seconds

 

healing 2.5 sec cast very susceptible to interupts high resource cost | Aside dark charge procs, harness darkness uninterrupted force lighting, healing while killing you

 

Gap closer

- none. | Force speed (also removes all snares)

 

Group utility section.

Knockback- none | Aoe knockback (overload)

Guard -no | Yes

Taunts -no | yes

Aoe Slow- no | Wither

 

And yet operatives get nerfed and assassins not? Why would anyone bring an operative over an assassin in rated WZ.

 

People still can not tell that Operatives and Assassins are two different classes and should not be compare side by side.

[Dmasterr]

People still can not tell that Operatives and Assassins are two different classes and should not be compare side by side.

 

Because if they do they might find out one is better than the other ? 1010101

 

 

 

To make this type of post before we have damage math to work with is not responsible and cannot be taken seriously by anyone.

 

Bioware has the math and before we call them crazy let us get it and study it.

 

That "math" is based on PVE enviroment spread sheets (just like in WoW)

 

 

Operatives are still useful. You can take any class in the game and argue a use for them. Remember that we are not talking team death match here. These warzones have objectives. Even in a TDM I would still argue that a couple of our concealment operatives in my guild are very worth taking on a team.

 

But you can keep kidding yourself and crying foul about other classes. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Judging from your posts though, I would not take you. You clearly don't know your class that well.

 

Actually my performance is exceptional, i can take down 2-3 other players at a time (if they are not top end players, and/or not maxed geard), and i can beat any class in 1v1 (yes, even tank assassins played very well).

 

The problem ? i perform better on my jugg, and would perform better on assassin. The problem is NOT that the class played by a good player can perform exceptionally well, ITS that other classes perform MUCH better played by the same player in GROUP pvp where teams are made of 8 competent players all on voice com.

[FalmeseReb]

Yeah after a 30 second build up to get 3 procs of HD but how can you call that burst damage? And its easy to counter for many classes, you cant counter the burst of an operative if he gest you first, and you can also EASILY counter the burst damage of a deception sin

 

it takes 30s to get behind someone without getting detected in stealth? Very easy to counter too.

[Bocherel]

Operatives are still useful. You can take any class in the game and argue a use for them.

 

I'm listening then.

 

Go ahead and argue that the Operative bring X or Y specific things to the table in your team (that could help the objective) more than his stealth "counter-part".

 

It's an honest question, I'm curious to read your reasons.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Bocherel

[Deannie]

How can you compare hidden strike to spike lol?

 

 

And why would you compare a tank spec to a burst operative?

 

Atleast compare the burst vs burst if you are going to do any comparison at all, this thread makes no sense

 

I love how he made a comparison and stated concealment operative burst with assasin tank spec burst equal. Yea, there was no point of reading anymore after that point.

 

I dont think i have ever seen someone in this forum said oh man this tank assasin came out of stealth and stun lock me to death before I was able to do anything.

[DarkDruidSS]

I'm listening then.

 

Go ahead and argue that the Operative bring X or Y specific things to the table in your team (that could help the objective) more than his stealth "counter-part".

 

It's an honest question, I'm curious to read your reasons.

 

Easy... the whole point of this thread. Concealment operatives bring BURST... something that his stealth "counter-part" can't bring. Even our BURST dps tree (deception) isn't bursty like an Operative. It's sustained DPS. If it comes to killing in a timely matter.. EI. 1 person attempting to cap a node alone then a Operative can still kill quicker than a Tankasin. Ok class why would kill time be important in an objective based game? Anyone?

 

Dmasterr, so you tell us how bad Operatives suck. Then you come back because I call you out and say you can kill 2-3 people easy. So which is it? Do operatives really suck or are you claiming you are a pvp god to save face because I hit your epeen button?

Edited March 19, 2012 by DarkDruidSS

[Dmasterr]

Easy... the whole point of this thread. Concealment operatives bring BURST... something that his stealth "counter-part" can't bring. Even our BURST dps tree (deception) isn't bursty like an Operative. It's sustained DPS. If it comes to killing in a timely matter.. EI. 1 person attempting to cap a node alone then a Operative can still kill quicker than a Tankasin. Ok class why would kill time be important in an objective based game? Anyone?

 

Dmasterr, so you tell us how bad Operatives suck. Then you come back because I call you out and say you can 2-3 people easy. So which is it? Do operatives really suck or are you claiming you are a pvp god to save face because I hit your epeen button?

 

The whole point of the thread, is to show there is no reason to bring an Operative dps in rated WZ teams, it is better to bring other classes and if you really want stealth team members assassins are better. I am not saying operatives SUCK omg don't play one, i am saying other classes ARE BETTER.

 

... And yes i am a PvP GOD. (2 blizzard tournaments won under my belt, multiple rank1 arena teams, Stormscale EU,cyclone BG, included... most of which were back in TBC when the game was at its best pvp wise, ... other part was in WOTLK)

 

and P.S. to cap a node vs 1 defender you do not need to kill him, u can blind cap, if he trinkets vanish-> sleep dart and cap. It is the only thing operatives can do better than assassins, sadly you will never encounter this in TEAM rated WZ.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Dmasterr

[-Alma-]

Because no one has ever been stun locked and killed by an assasin

[MrXen]

Prepare to read about 20 posts on Sins telling you to L2P and "balance" or some other odd excuse they'll give.

 

 

Assassin burst is no where near operative burst. End of thread. (and I play DPS sin)

 

 

 

I'll gladly trade my 50 BM assassin in for a 50 BM operative any day. In terms of surprise owning someone out of stealth, operative > assassin every day.

 

 

 

Difference: assassins can fight sustained fights better but with lower dps/burst. That is the difference. Now can I have some cheese with that whine?

[Froteus]

I stopped reading when he compared op burst to tank burst.

Op is a baddie and probably got rolled over by someone with more skill than him (read as: in a wz he got focused and only saw the tank he was foolishly beating on).

 

Hey guys my healer scoundrel does as much burst as my sentinel!! Totally not fair amidoingitright?

[Lickl]

Op you cant be serious? Op's have range assasians don't. I play booth and given my op is still low level but comparing these classes is like night and day.

 

Your also wrong on the burst dmg an op has better burst.

 

I'm sorry. I had to stop reading here. There's a serious flaw here. Operative's are either close ranged melee with Concealment tree, or somewhat mobile with Lethality. Since Lethality is better with multiple Operative, you rarely see it in PvP. Whoever this guy is that posted didn't finish his bowl of fruity pebbles before playing Operative. You're thinking of Sniper as ranged.

 

Since we're talking straight up 1v1 survivability, then it would have to go to the hybrid spec now of Assassin. Their standard damage reduction makes Operative Burst negate down to standard moves. People don't understand that we don't proc criticals all the time. The highest % you can get Backstab up to critical is 50%, and that's with Columi/Rakata Enforcer. The highest standard I can get my hands on is 35%.

 

Now I'm just going to throw up straight facts from an Operative perspective. Our Hidden Strike has a 33% chance to critical. It can only be used once in a fight(Maybe even multiple fights depending if you can cloak or not) which deals on average 1.5-1.9k with criticals between 3.7-4.2k.

 

Backstab has now become our strongest move, which wasn't meant to be. Operative's were called "Burst" DPS because of our initial Hidden Strike move. When they patched/nerfed Operative the first time, it was too much to begin with. It wasn't Hidden Strike that was the problem, it was Acid Blade. With the 50% armor penetration, it let us negate half your armor reduction. That's how I used to smash everyone for 5.8-6.5k damage in the beginning. That, and I was full champion while we were still able to fight level 10's.

 

Really, in my eyes at least, they only should've nerfed Acid Blade as they did. Hell I'll even give them the stun of 1.5s. When they cut Hidden Strike that much, it really put a hurting on our all around DPS. Keep in mind that when it comes to comparison Operative's are the worst defensive class. So it'll only seem natural that we have strong attacks to balance a tank spec or healing spec to dispatch of them equally.

 

So lastly please don't take this the wrong way. I want it to be fair and balanced at all times for it to be a challenge and based on skill, but right now I believe Hidden Strike should get it's 30% damage back. It was never the problem.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Lickl

[Dmasterr]

Assassin burst is no where near operative burst. End of thread. (and I play DPS sin)

 

Assassins do not have start up burst, but they have set up burst... and do more damage overall BY NOT DYING, aslo if you play dps assassin your doing it wrong, the damage increase is not a good trade vs the survivability you lose

 

I'll gladly trade my 50 BM assassin in for a 50 BM operative any day. In terms of surprise owning someone out of stealth, operative > assassin every day.

 

In normal WZ where you solo queue? sure. In TEAM PLAY? hell no, the difference in damage is more than made up for with group utility and uptime.

 

 

Difference: assassins can fight sustained fights better but with lower dps/burst. That is the difference. Now can I have some cheese with that whine?

 

Group pvp, aka Premades, are all about tanks and healers, 2 tanks and 3 healers will pretty much be the standard norm, 3 dps spots.... 1 of those will go to marauder for the heal debuff... so that leaves 2 spots,.... so unless you REALLY want the 5% crit class bonus and for some reason do not like snipers (who are better @ defending objectives) i see no reaspon to pick an operative DPS for your "rank 1 team" goal.

 

Personaly i would fill those 3 dps spots marauder/jugg all rage spec for AOE bombing; i can fill my need for knockbacks by bringing 1(2) assassin tank (2 for pull ability, or powertech the second) and having all 3 healers mercs if possible

[Bocherel]

Easy... the whole point of this thread. Concealment operatives bring BURST... something that his stealth "counter-part" can't bring. Even our BURST dps tree (deception) isn't bursty like an Operative. It's sustained DPS. If it comes to killing in a timely matter.. EI. 1 person attempting to cap a node alone then a Operative can still kill quicker than a Tankasin. Ok class why would kill time be important in an objective based game? Anyone?

 

Well except we don't burst THAT much and more important in a middle of an objective, being the door or huttball we gets wrecked, bumped left and right, can't close distance.

 

Add to that some guard + heal in organized group and it's pretty much impossible to count on burst at this point.

 

So we have to pick and wait our targets which isn't practical at all in a competitive environment with those kind of objective except to takes tower which is the only WZ where I'd favour an operative.

 

However since we don't get to chose which WZ we play in and considering we'll take another nerf to our overall damages then I wouldn't take an Op to play rated.

 

I'd be more efficient on my comm who can burst from range and grind to deliver his burst at anytime instead.

 

Really I think assassins are fine right now. I also believe the Op needs a fresh thing to makes it more appealing and bring something unique to the table.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Bocherel

[Lickl]

Really I think assassins are fine right now. I also believe the Op needs a unique fresh thing to makes it more appealing and bring something unique to the table.

 

One suggestion......Do you think we should be able to call Orbital strike from stealth? Or at least letting us call it in without the other team seeing the animation? Most offensive AoE's are useless in PvP because people can see them and move over 2 steps. With Operative's, however, it's much worse. They have 3 seconds to watch it coming and then another 1.5-2 seconds to move out of the way before it hits. So we're kinda dicked in that department.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Lickl

[MrXen]

Group pvp, aka Premades, are all about tanks and healers, 2 tanks and 3 healers will pretty much be the standard norm, 3 dps spots.... 1 of those will go to marauder for the heal debuff... so that leaves 2 spots,.... so unless you REALLY want the 5% crit class bonus and for some reason do not like snipers (who are better @ defending objectives) i see no reaspon to pick an operative DPS for your "rank 1 team" goal.

 

Personaly i would fill those 3 dps spots marauder/jugg all rage spec for AOE bombing; i can fill my need for knockbacks by bringing 1(2) assassin tank (2 for pull ability, or powertech the second) and having all 3 healers mercs if possible

 

 

Oh so you're telling me that I HAVE to play tank assassin or I'm dumb, and because of this my "supposed" up time provides me with more dps and burst than an operative?

 

 

 

Meanwhile ops can play healer or dps, and dps better than an assassin.

 

 

 

 

 

FYI if you die as an operative (DPS) then it is YOU who are doing it wrong. Every operative I see that still pvp's instead of crying tops leader boards in damage and killing blows.

 

 

300,000 damage + with a 5k+ big hit kind of results from an operative in a decently long warzone. Everytime I see one (and i don't mean some fresh 50, i mean champion+). Usually with double digit killing blows and 0-2 deaths.

 

 

That is underpowered how?

[Bocherel]

 

FYI if you die as an operative (DPS) then it is YOU who are doing it wrong. Every operative I see that still pvp's instead of crying tops leader boards in damage and killing blows.

 

 

300,000 damage + with a 5k+ big hit kind of results from an operative in a decently long warzone. Everytime I see one (and i don't mean some fresh 50, i mean champion+). Usually with double digit killing blows and 0-2 deaths.

 

 

That is underpowered how?

 

hm? well you mean the kind of results anyone who play rights and carefully would get? hey, don't need an Op to do that, not sure what you're trying to say.

[Lickl]

300,000 damage + with a 5k+ big hit kind of results from an operative in a decently long warzone. Everytime I see one (and i don't mean some fresh 50, i mean champion+). Usually with double digit killing blows and 0-2 deaths.

 

 

That is underpowered how?

 

I've yet to crack a 5k hit and I have full champion/BM bits. The only time I ever crack 300k damage is when it's against a pack of idiots and we're ****** them stupid and we're dragging the fight out. When it comes down to objective, I will do on average 180k-200k damage, 40-80k healing(grabbing the in-game heals.) The only way to get 300k every time is to only play for medals and not worry about objective's ever.

 

If you want to talk about people being on the top of leaderboards with damage, I'd point you do my Marauder buddy who can slam 400k-450k in every game. If you're really a Operative, man, then you've played him last in December.

[Bocherel]

One suggestion......Do you think we should be able to call Orbital strike from stealth? Or at least letting us call it in without the other team seeing the animation? Most offensive AoE's are useless in PvP because people can see them and move over 2 steps. With Operative's, however, it's much worse. They have 3 seconds to watch it coming and then another 1.5-2 seconds to move out of the way before it hits. So we're kinda dicked in that department.

 

I don't know, it would be super fun but I'm not sure how this would translate as a real useful tool to play objective as it's still nothing more than an aoe that many people bring to the table already.

 

Also it would be another reason why they'd nerf our damages, imagine doing that + engaging the target at the same time...

 

I already do it on dumb people though, it's funny

[Gidoru]

First of all, my main is an assassin, i have played all 3 specs extensively. I choose to play as madness and do quite well with it. I will certianly admit that tank spec is far superior to the other two specs. I will also admit that tank spec is quite overpowered as it combines high damage and mitigation.

 

However, you're kidding yourself if you're going to come here and claim that Ops dont do considerably more burst damage/single target damage than Assassins of any spec.

 

Your little comparsion should read more like this

 

Damage: Ops Great Assassin Good.

[Dmasterr]

Oh so you're telling me that I HAVE to play tank assassin or I'm dumb, and because of this my "supposed" up time provides me with more dps and burst than an operative?

 

I am not saying you are dumb, i am saying tank spec assassins are better for group pvp than dps specced assassins.

 

 

Meanwhile ops can play healer or dps, and dps better than an assassin.

 

Merc is a better healer option.

 

 

FYI if you die as an operative (DPS) then it is YOU who are doing it wrong. Every operative I see that still pvp's instead of crying tops leader boards in damage and killing blows.

 

Again, this is Full 8 man rated WZ premade, not solo queue.

 

 

300,000 damage + with a 5k+ big hit kind of results from an operative in a decently long warzone. Everytime I see one (and i don't mean some fresh 50, i mean champion+). Usually with double digit killing blows and 0-2 deaths.

 

Other classes range from 500k to 1 million and provide better group utility and still have 5k+ big hits, go play hutball as an operative and /wrists every time u get knocked down 1-2 levels.

 

 

That is underpowered how?

 

When other classes can perform all your roles better than you can, that's how, any small difference is countered heavily by utility.

 

answered

 

 

Your little comparsion should read more like this

 

Damage: Ops Great Assassin Good.

 

will edit, to avoid confusion.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Dmasterr

[upzie]

... And yes i am a PvP GOD. (2 blizzard tournaments won under my belt, multiple rank1 arena teams, Stormscale EU,cyclone BG, included... most of which were back in TBC when the game was at its best pvp wise, ... other part was in WOTLK)

Sure thing bob.