operatives and 1.2 (lolpatch)

[ImSaved]

1. Assassins don't have an opener

2. Operatives do frontload burst damage with consistency while assassins do build up burst with high inconsistency

3. Assassins are squishier than operatives

4. Operatives can heal in combat

5. Burst spec for assassins isnt even worth using

6. Operatives damage can't be mitigated while assassins damage can

 

And yes, I'm for removing as many CC's in this game as possible

 

Assassins are not "squisher" then Operatives. I would gladly trade my medium armor for a defensive CD that actually made a difference. And how exactly is our damage not mitigated? I hit heavily armored targets for half of what I hit Sages for. As for our awesome 2.5s cast-time heal, if you can't interrupt it then you must be playing this game with your feet.

 

Take an Assassin and make it worse in almost every way, and you'll have a Scoundrel. Fortunately May 15th isn't very far away.

[Dmasterr]

1. Assassins don't have an opener

Hello ? spike? http://www.torhead.com/ability/5HDJ5qS/spike

2. Operatives do frontload burst damage with consistency while assassins do build up burst with high inconsistency

You should watch some videos, some were posted here on the pvp forum, look for them, they have similar burst.

3. Assassins are squishier than operatives

LoL what? tank hibrid says hello.

4. Operatives can heal in combat

so do tank assassins and they do it while they are killing you .

5. Burst spec for assassins isnt even worth using

You have burst regardless of spec, just the slight burst increase (from full dps build) isn't worth losing a ton of survivability of tank/or hybrid specs.

6. Operatives damage can't be mitigated while assassins damage can

Enourmous amounts of damage from assassins are after mitigation.

 

And yes, I'm for removing as many CC's in this game as possible

 

Gogo tunneler pve button mashin player.

 

I advise you if to if not learning to play at least watch some videos of people who can play. Also you left out the huge amount of utility of assassins

Edited March 19, 2012 by Dmasterr

[Dmasterr]

Actually maybe you should consider stop playing the class.

 

Lucky for me, i also have a lvl 50 juggernaut and will probably stop playing operative altogether, since i do not enjoy healing.

 

My point is that regardless of what operatives can do, other classes can do the same thing much much better. I would be miles more effective as an assassin, especially in group play than an operative. I just hate that garbage double bladed glow stick and class animations.

 

 

if you aren't having fun, then yeah you should reroll. Alot of other people who play ops are though..

 

Where are they? sure there are some in 10-49 wz, but at 50? they are the least played class in the game, i even see more snipers than operatives.

[Cwild]

Lucky for me, i also have a lvl 50 juggernaut and will probably stop playing operative altogether, since i do not enjoy healing.

 

My point is that regardless of what operatives can do, other classes can do the same thing much much better. I would be miles more effective as an assassin, especially in group play than an operative. I just hate that garbage double bladed glow stick and class animations.

 

 

 

 

Where are they? sure there are some in 10-49 wz, but at 50? they are the least played class in the game, i even see more snipers than operatives.

 

I don't know. There are like 10 I actively pvp against or with.

 

This is still a really small number considering all the other classes.

 

But I'll still remain an operative. So when people lose to me, I can say, you are so bad, you lost to the worst class in the game. Which will cause us to be nerfed more. ****

[goulet]

i like that his quote explaining why operatives need to be nerfed is:

A: conditional. the least played class has to find multiple people of that same class in a game to accomplish what he's talking about. how long before another class gets tweaked because they all have interrupts and when the stack on casters they can't cast? better yet find me a situation where a group of players, the same class, aren't going to wreck someone, ever been in a game of huttball vs multiple sorcs?

you're gonna nerf based on luck of the draw? instead of looking into avoiding that draw happening in the first place?

just tell me this sounds rational and ill shut up: "im going to nerf you based on a situation that may or may not happen."

 

B: the problem he states is cc related, not damage related. It wasn't that the group of operatives kills you, its that they kill you while you can do nothing. yet the only cc change in the notes is the cooldown on an ability that can only be used from stealth and knocks you down for 2 seconds...

if thats the problem why isnt it addressed? more importantly isn't that why you have resolve, to avoid this kind of thing? if the attacks aren't contributing adequately to resolve up the value they contribute.

 

C: Other thoughts

-whats the statistic on how many games you'll play feeling you can't adequately contribute due to terrain/class difference before you'll stop playing? or does that not matter cause its the least played class?

 

-what's the statistic on how many outside-in (from other classes perspective) nerfs you'll tolerate without getting any inside out (from the perspective of the class itself) buffs before quiting the game?

is stun locking an issue, probably, but whats of equal issue is the reason why the class favors stun locking. Which is that if anyone gets outside of your melee range you are suddenly the only melee class without an in combat gap closer; and thats without getting into the fact that the longer a fight last the less affective you become due to energy regen.

bh/commando: grapple

assassin:sprint

warriors: charge, shared tree gap closer.

operative:?

* all of those classes with gap closers also have, with almost equal distribution, the same cc's an operative has. with the exception of marauder who trounces agents on sustainability.

 

Stealth is only a gap closer when A: you're not in combat ( a 2 minute cd on an in combat stealth is not a gap closer), and B: if the target is standing still or moving towards you, or hanging around in the same area.

Even if you nerf all ranged classes you're still left with a situation where every melee class but one has a gap closer. riddle me that.

 

of course the funny thing is all of these issues were pointed out numerous times in beta dating back to 7+ builds before the launch version of the game. But every time it was brought up it was ignored. Even when people who loved the class pointed out that no one is going to like a class that has to kill you way faster then any other class cause they don't have sustainability, and run into huge issues with ranged, unless they blow all their cc's consecutively.

Edited March 19, 2012 by goulet

[BulldogzLife]

1. Assassins don't have an opener

2. Operatives do frontload burst damage with consistency while assassins do build up burst with high inconsistency

3. Assassins are squishier than operatives

4. Operatives can heal in combat

5. Burst spec for assassins isnt even worth using

6. Operatives damage can't be mitigated while assassins damage can

 

And yes, I'm for removing as many CC's in this game as possible

 

Having an Assassin as my main, I can't help but comment.

1. They have spike, a 2s knockdown that does low damage. Not amazing but good for knocking players off ledges or interrupting heals.

2. Assassins build up burst yes, but it's VERY consistent. 2x Voltaic slash and you have your shock right after, with a maul proc almost always from those 2x attacks. Then you have recklessness, for use with the shock and discharge for your big crits. So yes, burst is consistent.

3. Assassin dps has light armor, so slightly less mitigation, however they have the most mitigation of any class on force attacks and such due to their buff. Force shroud is 3-5 seconds of total immunity and it clears dots. Force speed to get away, (or close the gap), a vanish, an aoe knockback, low slash on a low cd that does good damage and stuns for 4s. Assassins have WAY more control than an Op does.

5. Burst spec isn't worth using? Are you kidding me?

6. Operative damage is mitigated by armor, except for things such as the poison from acid blade. Assassin's voltaic slash is mitigated by armor, but maul receives a 50% penetration, and the rest is force attacks!

 

I honestly don't know why I still play my Operative in pvp over my Assassin. It's a tank though and I don't like pvping as a tank, only as dps on it, so probably to avoid constant respecs. That and my Op is almost BM rank so I want to at least get it there!

[hulkweazel]

I honestly don't know why I still play my Operative in pvp over my Assassin. It's a tank though and I don't like pvping as a tank, only as dps on it, so probably to avoid constant respecs. That and my Op is almost BM rank so I want to at least get it there!

Because it's fun, that's why I still play my Op. Sadly though that's all we got going for us now.

 

My Powertech is boring, I got bored of my Shadow and got bored playing a Sorc.

[ShizuXIII]

Having a hard time to decide what's worse:

 

- fake scoundrels/ops saying how they frag full battlemasters in 3 attacks

 

- terrible players who genuinely think scoundrels/ops are overpowered

 

- terrible players who know how pathetic scoundrels/ops are but keep asking for nerfs because they go around alone at 40% and get killed by one

 

- Bioware who builds the patches around the 3 categories mentioned above.

 

 

 

I also like how everyone claiming ******** like "I can frag full BM juggs with my centurion scoundrel" never provides actual numbers. Not a single time.

 

So here are some numbers: absolute best case scenario with all crits.

 

Shoot first 4.2k and backblast 3k. This is the instant damage out of stealth. 7k tops. Let's make it 8k, wich is very rare. Like 1-in-100 rare, against badly geared players.

Let's make it 8k against fully geared players, wich is not going to happen in the first place.

Even if it happened, it's 35-50% of the target's life.

 

Now what? If vanish is on CD (3 minutes, 2 if talented), the scoundrel starts hitting like a wet noodle. 1k blaster whip, 2k sucker punch. He can throw in a sabotage charge for 2-2.5k with a 30 seconds cooldown, wich requires cover (aka rooting himself in place). Maybe one of the weakest dots of the game on top of it.

 

If disappearing act is ready (3 mins cd, 2 if talented), the scoundrel isn't dotted, the target has no AoEs and/or he's playing with broken fingers, he can do the opening rotation again.

 

So yes, if the scoundrel has a 100% critical rate, all CDs ready and is attacking someone with bad gear and down syndrome, he has a reasonable chance to take down a good chunk of the target's heal.

 

In the real world, against equally geared, non brain-dead targets, the scoundrel has a reasonable chance to kill someone at 40% life who's already engaged by someone else.

 

 

You don't like the burst Bioware? Then don't *********** create a burst class in the first place.

Or give them some reasonable sustained damage out of stealth.

Because right now, scoundrels and ops don't have the burst and are just comedy material when out of stealth.

Healing tree? Worst of the three healing classes.

Dot tree? No wait sorry, scoundrels have two trees.

 

 

Usually when I find myself in awful games like this, at least I try to utilize my paid game time to the end.

But here? I made the mistake to pay for three months, but I barely played through the first one.

Can't even be arsed to use what I paid for.

Not with these amateurs at the balancing console and not with this community of ignorant scrubs.

 

But to each his own, i guess. Bioware has the players it deserves and the players have the developers they deserve.

Perfect combo.

Edited March 19, 2012 by ShizuXIII

[rawhead_wrecker]

Usually when I find myself in awful games like this, at least I try to utilize my paid game time to the end.

But here? I made the mistake to pay for three months, but I barely played through the first one.

Can't even be arsed to use what I paid .

 

Yet you still feel the need to troll the forums spewing bile - you must be a big hit with the ladies with an atitude like that

Edited March 19, 2012 by rawhead_wrecker

[VertisReaper]

Scoundrels/ops are by far the biggest crybabies in the entire community. Go over to the scoundrel forums, its disgusting in there. Take your nerfs and like them or at least wait till 1.2 combat logs come out to pass judgement. Till then, you can fling all the poop you want but no one cares, as far as I'm concerned pre 1.2 I would have taken 7 scoundrels/ops into any given BG anyday and we would have dominated every single team.

 

There's no counterplay to double opener when your trinket is down. Do you really want your entire class balanced around this one gimmicky move? Your sustained is FINE, use Duel of Fates as a DPS metric. If anything, its AHEAD of the curve. Things only get better from here, so quit whining its pathetic.

Edited March 19, 2012 by VertisReaper

[Zataos]

Sam old same old with whats wrong with OPs/Scoundrals, its probably a class design issue, but it basically comes down to, I should not be able to start at 100% health, be knocked down and ravaged for 3/4s of my health before I can even begin a response and that has happened to me in multiple champion geared classes.

 

I would say that this class in particular has a very low floor (can be played really poorly) and a very high ceiling (nearly unstoppable) and its in the hands of the good players that can do the above.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Zataos

[Cwild]

Sam old same old with whats wrong with OPs/Scoundrals, its probably a class design issue, but it basically comes down to, I should not be able to start at 100% health, be knocked down and ravaged for 3/4s of my health before I can even begin a response and that has happened to me in multiple champion geared classes.

 

I would say that this class in particular has a very low floor (can be played really poorly) and a very high ceiling (nearly unstoppable) and its in the hands of the good players that can do the above.

 

Opposite actually. Have you not noticed the qq from the operative forums that state they are utterly useless. This class in the hands of a good player is ridiculously good yes. In the hands of average players, its garbage, hence the qq.

 

 

edit: you are right, I read that wrong.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Cwild

[Howbadisbad]

this kid may be older than you.

 

18k can happen every 2 minutes under perfect conditions wich rarely happens in warzones with all that ae, stuns and random ****.

 

Operatives "stunlock" has the same problems as this...

Edited March 19, 2012 by Howbadisbad

[BulldogzLife]

Scoundrels/ops are by far the biggest crybabies in the entire community. Go over to the scoundrel forums, its disgusting in there. Take your nerfs and like them or at least wait till 1.2 combat logs come out to pass judgement. Till then, you can fling all the poop you want but no one cares, as far as I'm concerned pre 1.2 I would have taken 7 scoundrels/ops into any given BG anyday and we would have dominated every single team.

 

There's no counterplay to double opener when your trinket is down. Do you really want your entire class balanced around this one gimmicky move? Your sustained is FINE, use Duel of Fates as a DPS metric. If anything, its AHEAD of the curve. Things only get better from here, so quit whining its pathetic.

 

Your posts are really constructive I see . An Op using double opener right away is a bad player because it blows our only escape or way to gain back an upperhand in a fight, and a 7.5s cooldown won't change an Op from using it on you in anyway because despite what some of these people who don't play Ops say, you aren't killing anyone moderately geared or with some sort of brain in less than 5 globals. Good luck with a full team of Ops by the way, I'm sure you wouldn't get rolled right over in huttball.

 

I do amazing with my Op, but then again, I do amazing with every one of my characters because I'm a good player. A hidden strike cooldown I can deal with because I don't really find myself having to use this tactic much unless I get jumped by another Op or am targetting a healer. The 3s delay on backstab hurts bad though, along with a slight damage decrease on shiv and less overall crit. The class suffers from a total lack of mobility so burst is all we have on targets, and the continuing nerfs affecting burst without compensation for sustained or utility/mobility further limits the class.

 

As far as using Duel of Fates, a pve encounter, I finished behind everyone else because you can't backstab due to positioning requirements, which severly limits our dps. So with 3 more seconds added to backstab how can you not think this won't affect our damage?! Things do NOT appear to be getting better, because every patch has resulted in damage nerfs to a class that only primarily brings just that, damage.

[Cwild]

Your posts are really constructive I see . An Op using double opener right away is a bad player because it blows our only escape or way to gain back an upperhand in a fight, and a 7.5s cooldown won't change an Op from using it on you in anyway because despite what some of these people who don't play Ops say, you aren't killing anyone moderately geared or with some sort of brain in less than 5 globals. Good luck with a full team of Ops by the way, I'm sure you wouldn't get rolled right over in huttball.

 

I do amazing with my Op, but then again, I do amazing with every one of my characters because I'm a good player. A hidden strike cooldown I can deal with because I don't really find myself having to use this tactic much unless I get jumped by another Op or am targetting a healer. The 3s delay on backstab hurts bad though, along with a slight damage decrease on shiv and less overall crit. The class suffers from a total lack of mobility so burst is all we have on targets, and the continuing nerfs affecting burst without compensation for sustained or utility/mobility further limits the class.

 

As far as using Duel of Fates, a pve encounter, I finished behind everyone else because you can't backstab due to positioning requirements, which severly limits our dps. So with 3 more seconds added to backstab how can you not think this won't affect our damage?! Things do NOT appear to be getting better, because every patch has resulted in damage nerfs to a class that only primarily brings just that, damage.

 

Using a double HS opener doesn't mean the player is bad. Sometimes it is simply the best thing to do in that position.

 

example (1 of many) You and the huttball, only person stopping him from scoring. Burst him down, save a goal.

 

I'll even do another one

 

You are in a 1v2, healer and a marader...you open with hidden strike (dont acid blade) on the marader in hopes he cc breaks, wow he does fantastic, you cloaking creen sleep dart the mara, and open on the healer with HS.

 

But oh yeah, im just a bad player so having that hidden strike on cool down won't affect anything.

 

yeah right

[VertisReaper]

cwild is the only poster here ITT who knows what hes talking about and has a full understanding of his class, everyone else is either average, subpar ,or just plain terrible.

[zaltanus]

Patch Notes 1.3:

 

Operatives have exploited a bug in which players could not see them at all times. This has been fixed.

 

There have been reports that Operatives can occasionally kill Sorcerers. While we have not been able to re-create this situation on our servers, Operative damage per second has been decreased 50% for class balance.

 

We have also heard reports that Vibroknives are too violent for Operative use. These have been removed from the game. They have been replaced with Vibropillows.

 

Hidden Strike, Backstab, and Shiv have been removed from the game. Operatives will now have an ability named Tickle, which grants 1 Tactical Advantage each time an opponent's day has been brightened. Operatives may sacrifice the Tactical Advantage gained from Tickle for Pillow Fight, which lightly taps the opponent for 0 damage and enables the Operative to gossip with their opponent about the boys they "like, totally have a crush on" at school.

Edited March 19, 2012 by zaltanus

[Cwild]

cwild is the only poster here ITT who knows what hes talking about and has a full understanding of his class, everyone else is either average, subpar ,or just plain terrible.

 

I appreciate that, I'm sure there are others who are good too. Thing is, I offer suggestions and tactics like the 1v2 I just presented, and everyone is like *** OHHHHH yeah that makes sense...and never comments on it cause they don't want to never have done it.

 

Thats the problem with some of this population, they don't take the time to think about stuff, they just press the buttons and hope it does exactly what they want it to do without any thought behind it, if it doesn't work, they freak out.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Paralassa
content

[CaptainInsano]

I've never seen a class get pooped on as much as Operatives have so early in an MMO. It's strange to me because they're the least played class or second to least played class in the game (when you add up the mirrors from all classes) but they just keep getting hammered with nerfs. So obviously they aren't "OP" enough to attract rerollers, but somehow the metrics show that they warrant constant nerfs. I also think it's funny that the least impressive looking class compared to all the super powered Jedi and Sith actually IS the least impressive class. I thought BW would try really hard to prove that the Operative is powerful since it has no basis in lore, but instead they seem content to crush it under heel so the Jedi and Sith can have even more players. It strikes me as a pure business move more than anything.

[BulldogzLife]

Using a double HS opener doesn't mean the player is bad. Sometimes it is simply the best thing to do in that position.

 

example (1 of many) You and the huttball, only person stopping him from scoring. Burst him down, save a goal.

 

I'll even do another one

 

You are in a 1v2, healer and a marader...you open with hidden strike (dont acid blade) on the marader in hopes he cc breaks, wow he does fantastic, you cloaking creen sleep dart the mara, and open on the healer with HS.

 

But oh yeah, im just a bad player so having that hidden strike on cool down won't affect anything.

 

yeah right

 

I never said it doesn't have its uses, and there are limited situations such as stopping a person from scoring where that may apply if you can burst them down in time. Your other example though is a personal playstyle choice. I'd just sleep the marauder to begin with and start on the healer. If the players are in any way competent it's not likely that your going to win a 1v2 of a marauder and healer to begin with, although yeah I've had my fair share of turret capping agianst a couple players. Like I said, the hidden strike cd won't affect me much, it's the other changes, but to each their own.

[Cwild]

I never said it doesn't have its uses, and there are limited situations such as stopping a person from scoring where that may apply if you can burst them down in time. Your other example though is a personal playstyle choice. I'd just sleep the marauder to begin with and start on the healer. If the players are in any way competent it's not likely that your going to win a 1v2 of a marauder and healer to begin with, although yeah I've had my fair share of turret capping agianst a couple players. Like I said, the hidden strike cd won't affect me much, it's the other changes, but to each their own.

 

Why would you sleep dart him to start putting him at full resolve? Then if he trinkets that sleep dart to help his healer, you are getting waled on and have no way of stopping him...

 

 

with my option you use your vanish yes, but by the time he sits through the full sleep dart, you very easily could have killed the healer and are ready to start another 1v1 at 70% hp giving yourself a chance.

 

This is the reason...you are okay with the 7.5 second nerf.

 

There are other examples I can give you also, but you should know them already playing the class.

[VertisReaper]

I never said it doesn't have its uses, and there are limited situations such as stopping a person from scoring where that may apply if you can burst them down in time. Your other example though is a personal playstyle choice. I'd just sleep the marauder to begin with and start on the healer. If the players are in any way competent it's not likely that your going to win a 1v2 of a marauder and healer to begin with, although yeah I've had my fair share of turret capping agianst a couple players. Like I said, the hidden strike cd won't affect me much, it's the other changes, but to each their own.

 

and that is why he is a better player than you. There is a reason he starts on the marauder and it isn't a personal playstyle choice. It just just plain logic that any half decent pvper would understand.

[BulldogzLife]

and that is why he is a better player than you. There is a reason he starts on the marauder and it isn't a personal playstyle choice. It just just plain logic that any half decent pvper would understand.

 

A half-decent pvper would also understand that the sleep dart would be cleansed by the healer anyway. Who uses their cc-breaker on a 1.5s stun anyway?! If they are bad as it is, it isn't an issue! I'm talking about competent players here. You obviously don't play an Op and have no concept of the class anyway, so I don't understand your purpose here other to troll.

[Cwild]

A half-decent pvper would also understand that the sleep dart would be cleansed by the healer anyway. Who uses their cc-breaker on a 1.5s stun anyway?! If they are bad as it is, it isn't an issue! I'm talking about competent players here. You obviously don't play an Op and have no concept of the class anyway, so I don't understand your purpose here other to troll.

 

By the time he cleanses the sleep dart the healer is lower then 40% and if he is wasting a global to cleanse the mara fantastic.

 

I'm also talking about competent players....

 

Even if he doesnt blow his trinket, I would never sleep dart and open on the healer. Because guess what...I bet you he blows his CC breaker while you are pounding his healer...then what are you going to do? Nothing cause you gimped yourself.

 

 

EDIT: anyway it doesn't matter. This 7.5 second cooldown is horse ****

Edited March 19, 2012 by Cwild

[VertisReaper]

"I do reject that there is a “well, Operatives don’t have the sustained damage in Operations.” They do. They are within 5% of a Marauder." -Georg Zoeller

 

These, no sustained dps arguments are trash according to Bioware metrics.

Edited March 19, 2012 by VertisReaper