Constructive Feedback for Georg Zoeller

[RuQu]

Georg recently posted requesting constructive feedback based on actual gameplay. This thread is intending to put much of that in one place, so he can find it easily.

 

His original post was in this thread. Click the spoiler tag to view it in full.

 

 

Thank you for actually testing things in the game before posting. It's feedback from people like you we are interested in.

 

Games are not balanced on paper and actual gameplay impact of changes is not easily determined from patch notes, especially when so much of the surrounding game logic has been modified.

 

It is impossible to capture every element of change in patch notes, and it's even more impossible to prevent people from reacting to patch notes without taking the time to actually test.

 

We will be monitoring the game data coming from PTS, as well as guild feedback and constructive feedback based on gameplay on PTS and make adjustments and changes for the PTS period of the patch and beyond where necessary.

 

 

 

 

What is constructive feedback?

 

Constructive feedback should, ideally, do three things.

1. Concisely state the topic/concern/issue.
   
2. Provide evidence/support if necessary
   
3. Provide suggestions if at all possible.
   

 

If your evidence section is really long, please wrap it in SPOILER tags to prevent wall-of-text induced blindness.

 

*edit* I want to also point out that Constructive Feedback can be positive! Point out things that have been done well and that you would like to see more of.

 

Initial Feedback to start the party

 

1) Concern: There is little evidence that constructive feedback is listened to.

 

Evidence/Support:

Extensive feedback on healer issues was provided based on actual in-game experience on the live servers. Two example threads of constructive posts are this extensive compilation of feedback and this Operative specific thread.

 

Many changes were proposed, and healer balance was extensively discussed on the Healer forum and respective class sub-forums. The nerfs in 1.2 do not reflect any of the feedback that I have witnessed or the discussions I have participated in.

 

 

Suggestion: Please provide the metrics and sample feedback that was used to support these proposed changes. Show us the data that makes these changes seem reasonable.

 

2) Concern: There is concern that the Developers are ignoring a significant part of the player base, and biasing their feedback as a result.

 

Evidence: See the first paragraph of the initial GZ quote in this thread. Only those able to test the patch notes are deemed worthy to be heard, despite the limited number of invitation only character copies and the huge time sink required for the average player to relevel on the PTS.

 

Suggestion: Remember that the opinion of every player matters. Ignoring part of the population will bias your results, not to mention publicly stating that you are ignoring them will only alienate the ignored sub-population.

 

3) Concern: Communication is too one-way, with too little info from the Developers to the community.

 

Evidence:

 

Georg Zoeller posted this

We are generally not talking about upcoming balance information, for any class, until we have finalized the changes enough to be certain, which usually means when changes are about to hit PTS. This avoids confusion and wrong expectations, but understandably causes people to be impatient.

 

I have acknowledged, when asked at the Guild Summit, that we determined healing on Operative can use some improvements and have made changes in 1.2 (along with changes to almost every other aspect of the game).

 

For details, you will have to wait until the patch hits PTS (which should be soon) for the reasons stated. Even then, I would advise you to actually test the changes on the server rather than relying on theory crafting based on patch notes, as some of the underlying rules for the game (e.g. diminishing returns for certain stats) have changed at the same time.

 

Disclaimer: When I state 'we changed X', it does not preclude changes to Y and Z. I did not say 'we did not change Y and Z' but neither did I say 'we changed Y and Z'. I merely made a singular statement about X, which is not to be constructed as a statement about Y or Z. Even though I just said 'we changed X', the statistical probability for the immediate appearance of threads decrying the lack of change to Y and Z has significantly increased by this statement about X. This puzzling effect is why the first rule of partial class balance discussion is that you do not discuss partial class balance.

 

It is understandable that you would not want to comment when we didn't have the full context. Now we do. It is time for a LOT of comments.

 

 

 

Suggestion: Now that we have the full context of the Patch Notes and PTS, please provide information on Developer concept and intentions for each role and spec, view on the current state of balance and where you want it to go, and rationale behind the most major of the class changes.

 

4) Concern: Heavy-handed use of the nerf-bat.

 

Evidence: Look at the Combat Medic and Bodyguard patch notes.

 

Suggestion: Incremental change, with time to see the effects. People protest if you raise the price of gas a dollar, but accept it when it goes up 5 cents a week. Massive change will always spark protest and rarely comes across as reasonable.

 

5) Concern: PTS implementation prevents reasonable feedback.

 

Evidence:

To test balance I want to be able to do two things:

• Test my current level of content with my main.
  
• Test content on all three healers to compare balance.
  

 

Currently I can do neither, and I likely won't make it to 50 on my PTS Commando before these changes go live.

 

Lots of people would like to test and provide feedback, but the hurdle to do so is far too high.

 

 

Suggestion: Two suggestions that are extremely simple:

• Remove cost of tier gear and commendation gear on the PTS.
  
• Put a mission on a terminal on the Fleet that is instantly repeatable and grants 10 million XP.
  

 

You would still need to level to 10 and complete your starter world class quests, and select an AC. Once you have your AC, you can repeat this quest until you reach the level range you want to test. Once at your level, pick up commendation or tier gear as appropriate and go test.

 

5) Concern: Too much PvP in my PvE

 

Support: It has been suggested that the nerfs to Combat Medics were PvP related. Since we have had no Dev feedback on why they happened, this is only speculation. If true, there is a serious problem with attempts at PvP balance destroying PvE balance.

 

Suggestion: Make the WZ debuffs class-specific, and adjust those values accordingly. Class A doing too much damage? Give their debuff a % damage reduction. Class B doing too much healing in PvP? Give them an additional % healing done debuff.

 

I will start slowly leveling up my PTS character in an attempt to identify more solid issues. I enjoy testing and exploring mechanics, and I provided lots of bug reports on the Live servers starting the day of my Early Access invite. I wish I could test on a level 50 character, but that isn't happening. Hopefully this patch will remain on PTS for the month or more it will take for many working people to have enough time to get a class to 50.

 

6) Topic: Legacy and Class Unlocks are too awesome.

 

Evidence: I just really like the idea of them and they make me feel compelled to play alts.

 

Suggestion: Tie more rewards to the account. It is the player earning the rewards, not the character, and knowing my Operation-running main will benefit from my chronic altism is a welcome change of pace from other games.

Edited March 18, 2012 by RuQu

[Diableus]

1. Concern: Feedback or comments are not addressed

 

As any form of corporation it is a necessity to reply to your customer base in order to maintain a form or confidence in their capabilities. From your current complete apathy for replying to topics which present major concerns it only further proves that you are either incapable or supplying customer feedback or do not care, I would like to point out to you and your friends at EA that MMO's are the graveyard of gaming companies and to annoy a community is to destroy your game.

 

An important thing your company needs to learn in the near future is an MMO is a community based project and must be treated as such. Hire people to supply information and disseminate issues to your development team while providing concise feedback as this is a vital asset to any large based community company.

 

2. Developers not actually providing true testing tools

 

The current state of your test realm is a disgrace in comparison to every other one I have experienced in my days of MMO's rolling back all the way to Ultima Online. Do not think I will merely leave you with that bomb shell the list below will illuminate why;

 

1. No Character Copy
   
2. No true parsing capability
   
3. Ability to instant level to 50
   
4. Ability to buy gear for free to test changes
   

 

Now then to further explain the parsing capability to you, yes you have provided us with a log we can export which is so far removed to what should be given to us to truly parse the data. Do you even realise how your competitor Blizzard used to test content and did you know the reason why they used test realms so frequently? It was because the community leaders used to use combat logs and upload them to a huge database which was then used to justify why changes are good or bad.

 

3. Inability to provide feedback

 

This further intertwines to the test realm comment, how do we provide feedback without any form of ability to provide true feedback because you obviously think the community is incapable of providing feedback so you do not provide us with group based logs. This simple feature was introduced so people could parse data and without that feedback will be purely napkin math.

 

Either you resolve these issues as I find your testing insulting as all you seem to say is that these are how classes are performing. Show us the graphs and tell us what the classes were doing during those logs as I am pretty sure your team are not prophets providing the word of God. Provide us with information and stop being condescending and the community pillars will reply in return.

[Endusima]

I think I speak for almost the entire healing community when I say that the nerfs to Merc/Com healing came from NOWHERE.

 

Like everyone else I think it would be very interesting to hear about the motives behind this heavy nerf.

[ShadowAxx]

My feedback contribution to the proposed changes to the healer classes:

 

I'll not waste any space explaining why these changes are unnecessary. Anyone who has guild duty as a healer on hardmode/nightmare missions knows what these changes mean. It means more dead team mates and blame on the healers. What am I saying, I'll be kicked off my team as a BH healer.

 

Add to this how much I have spent in time, commendations and credits leveling the gear so my BH/Merc could run DPS and Healer, only to have the healing mechanics be crippled.

 

Buffing OP/Smugglers and BH/Commandos to parody with SORC/Sage was needed. Nerfing 2/3 of your healer population makes no sense.

 

My excitement and anticipation for 1.2 has been completely smashed. I was paying to play SWToR because it was fun. It's not going to be fun to have to roll another character if I want top be a healer for my guild. Besides, if these changes are permitted to happen and a healer class allowed to be made completely worthless, what protection is there from similar treatment of another class in the future?

 

- I have unsubscribed from SWToR.

- If the proposed healer changes make it into the the final patch 1.2 I will not renew my subscription.

 

ShadowAxx

The Swiftsure

...

Edited March 19, 2012 by ShadowAxx

[Wetworks]

I think I can say confidently that if BW would allow access to AC change many of these frustrated players would be far less angry if they had an option to change AC while BW balances. As we all know balancing nerf/buff is a long process over multiple patches, lifting AC restriction would allow customers to continue their time invested in a character w/o the obligations of waiting around for the correct "balance". Edited March 19, 2012 by Wetworks