Lightsaber forms for Jedi Sages?

[GusVIII]

I know that a Sage's primary weapon is the force, but I still think its ridiculous to limit their ability with a lighsaber to two simple attacks that I can only describe as stick wacking. Even Jedi Knights and Sith Warriors, whose abilities primarily focus on their lightsabers, have some variety of different Force-only attacks.

 

This doesn't make sense to me because I specifically remember hearing in Kotor 2 that every Jedi is at the very least taught the basics of Shi-Cho. I'm not asking for anything too fancy. Maybe just a defensive form along with a few new attacks so that a Sage can properly fend off an attacker who gets too close. It would make sense wouldn't it? A Sage uses their lightsaber defensively while a Knight uses theirs aggressively.

Edited March 17, 2012 by GusVIII

[KennethHoover]

I must admit the lightsaber melee attacks don't mean much. My lightsaber is pretty much just an ability buff stick.

[Onager]

I honestly feel the Balance tree should've been a hybrid melee tree for both Sage and Shadow (As per the beta) and that we should've been given the Ataru form, (Since Yoda pioneered it) since it's the form that invokes the force to manipulate the body the most.

[imthestein]

A friend of mine some time ago had decided that, when we see Yoda fight in the Clone Wars movie, we should have seen Yoda's can split into three lightsabers and have him send it out using the force and fight with the lightsabers using the force at a distance.

 

Later we found it had been done in the comics by a Sith, but these discussions about Sages using their lightsaber in combat just keeps reminding me about that discussion and how much I would love to see that in the game. I mean it even comes with instant downsides where you lose defensive abilities. Anyways, just wanted to share in my love of the idea.

[WorldTroll]

I think it's pretty cool to stand back looking bad-*** while only fending off attacks with the bluff stick. If they were to give us more melee attacks we sure would lose spell capabilities to nerfs.

 

But maybe they could make the balance tree into a hybrid like Onager said. Sort of like the Retribution Paladin on WoW.

[mboozled]

What we need are force forms, lol.

[Khadroth]

I honestly feel the Balance tree should've been a hybrid melee tree for both Sage and Shadow (As per the beta) and that we should've been given the Ataru form, (Since Yoda pioneered it) since it's the form that invokes the force to manipulate the body the most.

 

I wouldn't have been completely opposed to the idea, but keep in mind, that was changed in beta well over 3 months out from release, before they even started the weekend accesses. It seemed pretty clear that they felt it was bad for class balance to have shared trees. The melee/force hybrid does still exist, it's just Shadow only.

 

What we need are force forms, lol.

 

Honestly in restrospect, I wish they had done this instead of nerfing hybrids. Many of the other classes have forms that force them towards one role (Shadows, both Knight AC's, both Trooper AC's). It would have been a tough change to make, but a far more elegant one if done right. Take sentinels for instance, Combat hinges on the Ataru form for procs while Watchman uses Juyo for more burn crits. It just makes being a 21/20 hybrid tough as you're forced to choose between two stances.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Khadroth

[Assam]

I'm in disagreement with making the saber any better than it already is - why would you need a Lightsaber form for a Jedi whose primary weapon/healing device is the Force?

 

You have 3 other classes for you to focus on the saber/s or the Force - in fact, the Shadow uses the Force and the saber in great balance - so why would you want to make the Sage more like the Shadow, when the Shadow already does that?

 

The Shadow has techniques and skills directly utilising specific forms to do different things whilst also remaining quite close to the Force powers of the Sage.

 

The Sage's main attribute is the massive amount of Force you can weild, more than any other class - you hardly need your saber asides from the occasional bashing of your enemy in the face because its funny! You don't need a lightsaber form - what possible good would that do?

 

You use your saber for Double Strike, Single Strike, deflecting blaster bolts, parrying sabers and for channeling the Force through it, utilising the augments from the mods and crystal inside it. Is that not enough for a class dedicated mainly to the Force instead of the saber?

 

I'd need more convincing before I'd play a Sage with a saber form, I've played to Level 50 and only now use the saber for a bit of a laugh or when I have stupidly run out of Force and need to fight my way out before I get splatted!

 

I've played the Guardian and Sentinal up to around levels 20/21 - the difference between them all is vast and from a personal point of view, I'd encourage anyone who loves hurling sabers around to give them a go.

 

If you are looking for a balance between Force and saber, go Shadow, from a personal point of view again, after playing it up to level 20, it has everything I think you need in that class and it is excellent fun to play.

 

I am sure others with better experience could elaborate more, but I really am not convinced you need a form on a Sage.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Assam

[SnakeAes]

Canonically I actually think Form VI: Niman makes the most sense for Consulars given the storyline.

 

Niman is sort of an all-encompassing saber form that is usually best suited for diplomats; I don't think anyone would argue that the Consular storyline is all about diplomacy.

 

Also, the use of Force-based attacks to augment your combat in Niman style was encouraged and even necessary in most cases.

 

A hybrid fighting style, Niman incorporated elements from Forms I through V, but balanced out between their various specializations, in keeping with the Jedi quest to achieve harmony and justice without resorting to the rule of power. Form VI covered many of the various moves of lightsaber combat, but due to its emphasis on overall moderation, its focus on bladework was somewhat relaxed. Thusly, the form was easily mastered by those who preferred to devote a high percentage of their time to study and peacekeeping, which made it the preferred form of Jedi Consulars.

Reference

Edited March 23, 2012 by SnakeAes

[imthestein]

Canonically I actually think Form VI: Niman makes the most sense for Consulars given the storyline.

 

Niman is sort of an all-encompassing saber form that is usually best suited for diplomats; I don't think anyone would argue that the Consular storyline is all about diplomacy.

 

Also, the use of Force-based attacks to augment your combat in Niman style was encouraged and even necessary in most cases.

 

 

Reference

 

See, I had always figured Niman would be perfect for Shadow.

[Felioats]

I honestly feel the Balance tree should've been a hybrid melee tree for both Sage and Shadow (As per the beta) and that we should've been given the Ataru form, (Since Yoda pioneered it) since it's the form that invokes the force to manipulate the body the most.

 

Bingo.

 

I feel Bioware owes us an explanation as to why they took the saber skills from us.

 

The Sage should have the option to use a lightsaber better than they do, even if it comes at a cost to Force ability.

 

Sadly I don't see this happening outside of an expansion pack, if at all.

[Assam]

Bingo.

 

I feel Bioware owes us an explanation as to why they took the saber skills from us.

 

The Sage should have the option to use a lightsaber better than they do, even if it comes at a cost to Force ability.

 

Sadly I don't see this happening outside of an expansion pack, if at all.

 

But why would you want the Sage to do what the Shadow already does?

[Khadroth]

But why would you want the Sage to do what the Shadow already does?

 

Either they want to be a melee healer or they hate the double bladed lightsaber. Neither of which is very logical as scoundrels are melee healers, and the DBL is the solitary aspect of a class they hate when everything else fits exactly like they want.

[Felioats]

Either they want to be a melee healer or they hate the double bladed lightsaber. Neither of which is very logical as scoundrels are melee healers, and the DBL is the solitary aspect of a class they hate when everything else fits exactly like they want.

 

I wanted to play a support class that uses a lightsaber. It seemed like a no-brainer to me, but apparently Bioware didn't think of it.

[Khadroth]

I wanted to play a support class that uses a lightsaber. It seemed like a no-brainer to me, but apparently Bioware didn't think of it.

 

That's what a Sage is... ?

[jmslay]

Saber throw should totally be a Sage ability. I mean it relies entirely on someones control of the force!

[Felioats]

That's what a Sage is... ?

 

Nope.

[Assam]

Nope.

 

So Bioware got their own class wrong?

 

A Sage is a ranged class, not a close combat class, that uses the Force more than any other class - that is the design.

 

I posted above what a Sage does with the saber and that should be enough - it doesn't need anything more - why would it?

 

It uses the Force to do the damage that Knights or Shadows can do with their sabers

 

As I said earlier, I've got a Level 50 Sage - I hardly ever use my saber because I'm too busy using the Force to deal damage. I have a decent crystal in it, some good mods to buff up my character along with all the armour mods, implants, relics etc

 

Would you prefer to scrap the the Jedi Classes and just have one Uber Poweful Jack of all trades?

 

I've always thought the classes were designed to fit in as a team - be it with your companions or those who you can play alongside for Operations etc. Each class fills a gap in the weaknesses of the others to make a better and more effective team - you give the Sage more saber skills, you break that balance, you give it things that make it better than the others.

 

The Shadow fills the role of Force user and Saber weilder design perfectly, though it is neither massively powerful in both, the balance is maintained very well, you can be a support tank with this character very easily.

 

Why do you want a ranged class with close combat skills when the Shadow can do a bit of range and a bit of close combat?

Edited March 27, 2012 by Assam

[ArlindoGMNeto]

you hardly need your saber asides from the occasional bashing of your enemy in the face because its funny!

 

There. It´s fun. And sages ARE jedi after all. We´re not trying to be shadows, we´re just asking for a few more skills so we can fight in melee if we so desire.

 

Like you said, its fun.

[ArlindoGMNeto]

Would you prefer to scrap the the Jedi Classes and just have one Uber Poweful Jack of all trades?

 

 

That would be great. Just one class: Jedi. Your training would define your role, not the stereotype thing BW is trying to push on us.

 

Make it one class and allow us to use whatever lightsaber type we want and this game will be much better.

[Assam]

There. It´s fun. And sages ARE jedi after all. We´re not trying to be shadows, we´re just asking for a few more skills so we can fight in melee if we so desire.

 

Like you said, its fun.

 

You do have Melee skills - Double Strike and Single Strike which you can rank quite highly during your leveling up, get the right crystals and mods and you could do a reasonable amount of damage with them - hows that?

 

Though I would repeat - the Sage is a Ranged class - fighting is the last resort when you can kite away from 35 metres away and pretty much almost stop most of the enemies who want to get closer. You are too squishy armoured to play a melee character anyway, you don't want to be near anything, you want to be as far away as possible from melee fighting.

 

This is an MMO, not KOTOR 1 or 2 - you have to have set designs for different classes - you need Healers, Ranged DPS, Off Tank DPS, Tanks etc - you can't just have one class for everything - look at what happened to Star Wars Galaxies, they did exactly what you are asking for and it destroyed the MMO completely.

 

Have you played any other class?

 

If you are looking for a type of Jack of all trades - the Shadow really is the closest your Jedi will ever get to that, trust me, you have the powers of a pretty decent Sage and the blade skills to back it up - the only thing you can't do is heal but medpacks are useful and they have pretty good defensive stuff like Kinetic Ward - which uses the Force to protect your Shadow with.

 

If you are looking for more saber than you can wave a Sith at - Guardian or Sentinal - fantastic stuff, you can do some magnificent work with either of those two classes whilst using a bit of Force as well - Guardian's Force push is a hoot.

 

There, you have 3 choices of saber and Force weilding to choose from, I fail to see where you can go wrong with all that choice. The Sage is not designed to be a fighter with a saber, the Sage is designed to fight or heal with the Force from far away.

 

My advice is roll a load of alts and play saber or Force weilder depending on your mood because I honestly don't think your idea of a Jack of all trades Jedi would work in an MMO, it didn't in Star Wars Galaxies and it would not work for this game.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Assam

[Allegos]

I don't know about anyone else, but my Consular seems to know his way around a lightsaber well enough to have a reasonable chance of deflecting blaster shots and parrying melee attacks, even attacks from behind. You should see him reach behind his back to do that parry, it's pretty boss. Beyond that admittedly impressive capability, I really don't think the game needs a fourth melee Jedi class.

[ACLucius]

You do have Melee skills - Double Strike and Single Strike which you can rank quite highly during your leveling up, get the right crystals and mods and you could do a reasonable amount of damage with them - hows that?

 

Not really. In order to do any more damage with the lightsaber, a Sage would have to put in Strength mods. Our melee is based on Strength, not Willpower strangely. Why they decided to do this doesn't make sense to me, but I suppose it was to avoid OP Sages who could own at a distance and up close.

[GusVIII]

Here's the thing. If I remember correctly the Shii-Cho is the basic form that all Jedi and Sith are supposed be instructed in. No matter what their class, they're all supposed to be swordsmen to a certain degree. It's weird that even the most basic form isn't available to Sages. I'm not sure if Shadows, Assassins and Sorcerers have any forms available because I haven't played them. Edited April 5, 2012 by GusVIII

[Sulvan]

This argument is point less. Simple thing is if they are going to give them melee attacks and the force moves?

 

This gives shadows the disadvantage.. For the fact they are melee and get 100 force while the sage can get 500-600 see the problem here?