Lethality > MM Sniper - From a diehard MM supporter

[psi_overtake]

Alert healers.

 

/endthread.

 

Your short simplicity is wrong; healers almost never dispel - at least that I've come across do not. Lethality is perfectly viable right now.

[Ayestes]

There were at least a fair few Mercenaries and Operatives (they need not be healers) that dispelled my DoTs as Lethality for a week or so. After that I quite literally re-rolled to a Sorc. I love the Sniper class, but being shut down that hard was rather disheartening. If we aren't dispelled then we are perfectly fine and I just wish my opponents hadn't learned this trick.

 

If anyone is curious why I didn't go Marksman, it's the same thing when an opponent uses a Defense Chance cooldown. It's far too punishing to see your damage drop to near zero numbers when a lot of other classes aren't punished nearly as hard. I never did like Engineering much, personally. Therefore, I chose a class with DoTs that are easy to reapply and a class that doesn't deal with Defense Chance. I do however miss the burst that I used to have as a Lethality Sniper. Sorc Burst DPS among the DPS classes is likely the absolute worst.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Ayestes

[poulpatine]

Playing a lot of wzs with mates. Often matched against premades. And YES healers dispell, every premade on my serv has 2 commandos healers so they wait for the corrosive nade and...

 

The reason people spec MM is for target switching efficiently and not having huge setups that require huge amounts of energy for bursts (and stealth classes dot wiping mechanics too).

 

Plus mm is still very strong 1c1.

[Noctournys]

Your short simplicity is wrong; healers almost never dispel - at least that I've come across do not. Lethality is perfectly viable right now.

 

No. Results you get in random PuGing are meaningless. Rated WZs are the future.

 

Trust me.

 

In premade v premade action.. it's already a dead spec. I used to respec Lethality to PvP and then head to MM for raiding. Then i started to run into alert healers... and with group comps (at least on Port Nowhere) on the republic side starting to be 2 heals/2 tanks/4 hybrids, it was hard to break 125k damage.

 

It was nearly impossible to get k ills.

 

Alert healers gut Lethality. Without some kind of dispel protection.. trololol.

 

Stick with Marskman. At least then you actually put people in an HP deficit with your energy, as opposed to spending energy and seeing you dots get cleansed before they deal damage.

[psi_overtake]

... In premade v premade action.. it's already a dead spec. ...

 

I completely expect this to be the case, but I'm also expecting tree changes in 1.2 along with the rated WZ. I'm suspecting that 31-point talents will be improved, and there's a chance at dispel protection. I wouldn't rule out Lethality in rated WZ, but if there aren't changes made to it, I'd agree that it's DoA.

[Tronzax]

I completely expect this to be the case, but I'm also expecting tree changes in 1.2 along with the rated WZ. I'm suspecting that 31-point talents will be improved, and there's a chance at dispel protection. I wouldn't rule out Lethality in rated WZ, but if there aren't changes made to it, I'd agree that it's DoA.

 

That didn't happen.

 

I am sad.

 

Well actually weakening blast is now free. But that's pretty much it.

[Radared]

That didn't happen.

 

I am sad.

 

Well actually weakening blast is now free. But that's pretty much it.

 

Yeap, enjoy Marksmanship for rated PvP. Unless the other team is full of bads, Lethality is DoA. Put a fork in it. Target Switching will be a bit easier cause Weakening Blast has no energy cost, but no dispel protection and 15% decrease on the physical damage puts it in a tight spot. It will work, don't get me wrong, but its definitely at a disadvantage.

[Noctournys]

and we lost 3% crit across the board.

[Sobayn]

No. Results you get in random PuGing are meaningless. Rated WZs are the future.

 

Trust me.

 

In premade v premade action.. it's already a dead spec. I used to respec Lethality to PvP and then head to MM for raiding. Then i started to run into alert healers... and with group comps (at least on Port Nowhere) on the republic side starting to be 2 heals/2 tanks/4 hybrids, it was hard to break 125k damage.

 

It was nearly impossible to get k ills.

 

Alert healers gut Lethality. Without some kind of dispel protection.. trololol.

 

Stick with Marskman. At least then you actually put people in an HP deficit with your energy, as opposed to spending energy and seeing you dots get cleansed before they deal damage.

 

 

 

Your premades might do better if they put more than just one person on the healer. That being said it's difficult for a healer to cleanse when he/she is being force choked- or what I like to think of as the little window of destruction and pain.

 

I'm not sure if it's just "spec-pride" that causes people to say 1 spec is useless over another, but I can assure you that Lethal/Eng can leave a nasty sting on someone if you time it right.

 

Don't get me wrong- I miss the big hits from MM spec - but people ( smart ones ) will start to LOS you in certain situations. This is where dots come in to play - they are the gift that keeps on giving. Not ALL dots will be dispelled or cleansed off and if by chance they are...you do have other ways to do dmg and casting a dart back on a target is very easy to do.

 

- watch your energy

- look for your chance to interrupt

- time your cull/SoS

- learn when to spam your grenades / OS for AoE beatdowns

 

and you will love this spec for pvp

 

MM snipers - you guys are still cool too

[Veala]

You guys just looked at the topic here instead of the notes themselves didn't you?

 

Shatter Shot now additionally inflicts trauma, reducing all healing the target receives by 20% for 9 seconds.

 

Why yes, Bioware, I will trade 3% crit for that.

 

./happydance

[Noctournys]

Your premades might do better if they put more than just one person on the healer. That being said it's difficult for a healer to cleanse when he/she is being force choked- or what I like to think of as the little window of destruction and pain.

 

I'm not sure if it's just "spec-pride" that causes people to say 1 spec is useless over another, but I can assure you that Lethal/Eng can leave a nasty sting on someone if you time it right.

 

Don't get me wrong- I miss the big hits from MM spec - but people ( smart ones ) will start to LOS you in certain situations. This is where dots come in to play - they are the gift that keeps on giving. Not ALL dots will be dispelled or cleansed off and if by chance they are...you do have other ways to do dmg and casting a dart back on a target is very easy to do.

 

- watch your energy

- look for your chance to interrupt

- time your cull/SoS

- learn when to spam your grenades / OS for AoE beatdowns

 

and you will love this spec for pvp

 

MM snipers - you guys are still cool too

 

No spec pride. Read the post. I used to be lethality for PvP. And the premades.. are 2 tank/2heals/4 rDps that can cleanse. Six people on the enemy team can cleanse. Its absurdly common already.

[Sobayn]

Alert healers.

 

/endthread.

 

I did read - It's this post that made me think of " spec-pride". OP wants to talk about lethality vs MM from his point of view and you come back with the classic gem "/endthread" ..not very constructive is it .

 

I am aware that classes can clear dots/slows off of them - some of those abilities do have cd's ...right ?

 

I end up going against a lot of good premades ( yes 4 man ) teamed up with some good pugs on my server - and yes I still see lots of dot ticks .

 

You played lethality and you like MM better - that's fine , nothing wrong with that.

 

I'm just agreeing with the OP and trying to be constructive for anyone else reading up on different specs for sniper pvp.

 

I played MM and like Lethal/Eng better - it's all about play style

[BambulaGTS]

Broskies,

 

Have u noticed they lowered cost of cleanse (at least for merc/commando) by the half > 16 heat > 8 heat?

 

It seems BW wants lethality snipers to be pubstomp lolspec in 1.2

 

Oh, great news, now sniper have their own niche "debuff bot" - spam trauma debuff on enemy team on CD from range.

 

Cause no passive accuracy/increased damage/cleanse resistance/shield bypassing were given

Edited March 17, 2012 by BambulaGTS

[Nezlezar]

Those patch notes were a 'thought' in the right direction but largely a joke. Looks like I'll be MM come 1.2!

[Noctournys]

I did read - It's this post that made me think of " spec-pride". OP wants to talk about lethality vs MM from his point of view and you come back with the classic gem "/endthread" ..not very constructive is it .

 

I am aware that classes can clear dots/slows off of them - some of those abilities do have cd's ...right ?

 

I end up going against a lot of good premades ( yes 4 man ) teamed up with some good pugs on my server - and yes I still see lots of dot ticks .

 

You played lethality and you like MM better - that's fine , nothing wrong with that.

 

I'm just agreeing with the OP and trying to be constructive for anyone else reading up on different specs for sniper pvp.

 

I played MM and like Lethal/Eng better - it's all about play style

 

No, i didnt play Lethality and like Marskman better.

 

Marksman WORKS better against a team who isnt in the bush league.

 

Yes, the DoT cleanses have cooldowns - a whopping 4.5 seconds - but they get TWO affects at a time. And Corrosive Grenade - long cooldown. You cant afford the energy burn to just spam C. Dart, either.

 

I would *prefer* to play Lethality. Unfortunately for that to work - Lethality would have to be viable.

[painsponge]

Time takes for a lethality sniper to set up:

 

1. Corrosive Dart, 1.5sec Global

2. Corrosive Grenade, 1.5sec Global

3* Weakening Blast, 1.5 sec Global (optional)

4. Cull

 

So the rotation requires 3 globals, or 4.5 sec (3 sec without WB) plus cast time, which I would estimate to be 2-3 sec. Altogether, it would take roughly 8-9 sec (5-6 sec without WB) to set up your optimal damaging rotation.

 

Time takes for a healer to neglect 90% + of that damage:

 

Operatives:

1. Toxin Scan, instant cast, 4.5 C/D

 

Mercs:

1. Cure, instant cast, 4.5 C/D

 

 

Granted, corrosive grenade can be applied to multiple targets, but rated teams would likely have multiple healers. On to of that, there is no way for you to keep up with the spamming (tab CD) if they are being quickly cleansed (no energy return from crits). Not to mention you are severely limited by the C/D of your main attacks (12 sec on CG, 9 sec on Cull, 15 on WB), and the predictable rotation. (hmm, CD and CG, wonder what he'll use next...)

 

Meanwhile, MM can pump out instant snipe + followthrough every 6 secs (which can crit for 3k and 4k+ on clothies respectively), without needing any setup. I can see lethality being a good pug wz build because nobody cleanses dots and can easily top the damage meters. But come 8 men rated, it would not be as effective compare to MM.

 

One thing I will give lethality over MM is their ability to kill tanks. Maybe that'll be their eventual role comes rated, specialized ball carrier terminators.

Edited March 17, 2012 by painsponge

[Sobayn]

No, i didnt play Lethality and like Marskman better.

 

Marksman WORKS better against a team who isnt in the bush league.

 

Yes, the DoT cleanses have cooldowns - a whopping 4.5 seconds - but they get TWO affects at a time. And Corrosive Grenade - long cooldown. You cant afford the energy burn to just spam C. Dart, either.

 

I would *prefer* to play Lethality. Unfortunately for that to work - Lethality would have to be viable.

 

I disagree with you

 

You don't play MM because you like, it just works better.... for YOU

 

Lethality and Lethal/Eng works better for others

 

Don't state that one spec is for "bush league" while another is for the pros.

 

If you're playing teams that's letting you pick them off from a stationary position ...well you're playing bush league teams then.

 

You got MM to work - again that's great , MM is a good spec

 

I got Lethal/Eng to work , why is that so hard for you to grasp ? Do you really think I played MM for a day then gave up on it ?

 

I took MM to battlemaster before I made the switch. Then the next 20 valor levels was testing full Eng, Full leth , marks/Eng , marks/Leth, and now what i'm currently on Leth/Eng

 

And yes I have switched back to MM several times since hitting BM as well.

 

It's all about play style

[Noctournys]

I disagree with you

 

You don't play MM because you like, it just works better.... for YOU

 

Lethality and Lethal/Eng works better for others

 

Don't state that one spec is for "bush league" while another is for the pros.

 

If you're playing teams that's letting you pick them off from a stationary position ...well you're playing bush league teams then.

 

You got MM to work - again that's great , MM is a good spec

 

I got Lethal/Eng to work , why is that so hard for you to grasp ? Do you really think I played MM for a day then gave up on it ?

 

I took MM to battlemaster before I made the switch. Then the next 20 valor levels was testing full Eng, Full leth , marks/Eng , marks/Leth, and now what i'm currently on Leth/Eng

 

And yes I have switched back to MM several times since hitting BM as well.

 

It's all about play style

 

Simple fact: if organized teams aren't cleansing your DoTs, you're playing against scrubs. That simple.

 

Marksman cant be gutted by one guy with a cleanse button and a pulse. Lethality can.

 

It's not really something open to debate.

[Sobayn]

Simple fact: if organized teams aren't cleansing your DoTs, you're playing against scrubs. That simple.

 

Marksman cant be gutted by one guy with a cleanse button and a pulse. Lethality can.

 

It's not really something open to debate.

 

 

The fact that you think Lethal/Eng's usefulness and Dmg come's from just 2 dots tells me either you never really gave the hybrid a chance or I'm being trolled.

 

Not open for debate ...why not ? I'm not the only person running this spec, so maybe you should ask yourself - what are you doing wrong.

 

FYI - Lethal-Eng players still get to use - Ambush, explosive probe , SoS , frag grenade, snipe , Takedown , Debilitate* ( cull = 2.8 sec , Debilitate = 4 , just a little tip if your worried about dots being cleansed ) , leg shot and last but not least OS

 

It's a person's play style that makes the best of a certain spec- and that's not open for debate if you know anything about MMO's using talent-trees

 

Personally I think I'm being trolled- if that's the case, I'm only feeding you stale cat food from here on out

[vimm]

The fact that you think Lethal/Eng's usefulness and Dmg come's from just 2 dots tells me either you never really gave the hybrid a chance or I'm being trolled.

 

Not open for debate ...why not ? I'm not the only person running this spec, so maybe you should ask yourself - what are you doing wrong.

 

FYI - Lethal-Eng players still get to use - Ambush, explosive probe , SoS , frag grenade, snipe , Takedown , Debilitate* ( cull = 2.8 sec , Debilitate = 4 , just a little tip if your worried about dots being cleansed ) , leg shot and last but not least OS

 

It's a person's play style that makes the best of a certain spec- and that's not open for debate if you know anything about MMO's using talent-trees

 

Personally I think I'm being trolled- if that's the case, I'm only feeding you stale cat food from here on out

 

You're not being trolled; he's just extremely closed-minded.

[DestyOwn]

lol as of right now, i just kill every snipers who play MM, MM/ENG... maybe in Ranked WZ it's gonna change but in ranked WZ's people are gonna DENY MM Snipers so bad.

 

i am fully bm whith pve gear to mix it up, between 500-650 expertise and i never hit snipe for 4k on a geared sorc with 600+ expertise. same thing for FT.

 

Sure MM against ungeared people is good and easy. but wait till you play against FULL BM/WH people all the time and laugh are your little snipes that misses.

Edited March 18, 2012 by DestyOwn

[painsponge]

lol as of right now, i just kill every snipers who play MM, MM/ENG... maybe in Ranked WZ it's gonna change but in ranked WZ's people are gonna DENY MM Snipers so bad.

 

i am fully bm whith pve gear to mix it up, between 500-650 expertise and i never hit snipe for 4k on a geared sorc with 600+ expertise. same thing for FT.

 

Sure MM against ungeared people is good and easy. but wait till you play against FULL BM/WH people all the time and laugh are your little snipes that misses.

 

really, as mm I never have trouble killing leth snipers. I love seeing them too since majority of snipers are leth spec on my server.

[DestyOwn]

really, as mm I never have trouble killing leth snipers. I love seeing them too since majority of snipers are leth spec on my server.

 

Well they bad...

 

i use evasion when you charge ur ambush + SOS or FT i DOT u, then i LOS you.... what are you gonna do....? i pop in cover for culll.... your snipes ambush dont do much damage... then i explosion probe + LOS then LOS in and out to detonates the probes, honestly your only hope is to kill me while ur 2 second legshot is active.

 

Honestly MM snipers dont have a chance against good leth/eng snipers.

[Radared]

Well they bad...

 

i use evasion when you charge ur ambush + SOS or FT i DOT u, then i LOS you.... what are you gonna do....? i pop in cover for culll.... your snipes ambush dont do much damage... then i explosion probe + LOS then LOS in and out to detonates the probes, honestly your only hope is to kill me while ur 2 second legshot is active.

 

Honestly MM snipers dont have a chance against good leth/eng snipers.

 

I would say this is correct...when played well, Lethality should win. The key is catching them out in the open, it's all about positioning and a lot of this talk is hypothetical really. I would agree, a Lethality Sniper should def win 1v1. The problem is most stand there like statues like they're Marks.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Radared

[painsponge]

Well they bad...

 

i use evasion when you charge ur ambush + SOS or FT i DOT u, then i LOS you.... what are you gonna do....? i pop in cover for culll.... your snipes ambush dont do much damage... then i explosion probe + LOS then LOS in and out to detonates the probes, honestly your only hope is to kill me while ur 2 second legshot is active.

 

Honestly MM snipers dont have a chance against good leth/eng snipers.

 

 

Honestly, Leth/Eng snipers don't stand a chance against MM snipers, maybe the ones on your servers are bad.... see what I did there

 

Lol, cover for cull, ever heard of a skill called Diversion or maybe LoS?? I'd like to see you use SoS and EP when you can't even get into cover. Sure you can use evasion, but any good MM sniper will cancel ambush immediate when they see that giant green bubble, or use Flashbang to neglect the effect. This is why I have a feeling that you've never played a proper MM sniper and think of them as sitting ducks hard casting ambush and snipe all day.

 

MM snipers can LoS just as well, they are capable of instant snipe+ft combo every 6 secs as well as instant casts such as CD, EP, FG. And since ft does not require cover, you are free to reposition after an instant snipe. MM snipers also gain ballistic damper every 6 sec when entering into cover, an often overlooked, but surprisingly effective defensive proc that absorbs 30% incoming damage.

 

So while your strategy requires LoS to even stand a chance (and lets be honest, LoS is not always available) , MM can be equally effective LoSing and completely wipe the floor with leth on an open field. Imo, it comes out with a slight advantage in overall scenarios. And lets not forget, a single cleanse by a team mate will render you completely worthless, but I guess that's another topic since we are talking about 1 vs 1 situation.

Edited March 19, 2012 by painsponge