- You certainly sounded that way, bringing up MM burst CDs when it was never mentioned nor was part of my argument. - 50% crit still means there is a 50% likelihood that all of your attacks will not crit. - so you admit your 20k+ burst has multiple RnG requirements?

Imperial Agent's pve helmet makes them look like space welders... and what's with the traffic light overload on the pvp set, I thought we were suppose to be stealthy.

1. Never mentioned a single word on MM burst, why bring it up? Don't be so defensive bud. 2. Maybe not all of your attacks crit, but the majority definitely did. 3. You said so yourself that the trinket proc multiple times in the original post, I merely copied what you've wrote. 4. Debiliate has a range of 4m, so now your "burst" also requires you to be within melee? Anyways, you seem to be missing my point. I am not arguing which spec has more burst, nor am I comparing them in a rated environment. I just think your sporadic scenario of a "target swap 20k+ in 3 global" is misleading and not an accurate representation of lethality burst.

And I believe your claim. But you are trying to use an extremely marginalized scenario to present lethality burst. In order to do what you've said, 1. all of your cooldowns have to be up 2. all of your attacks crit 3. multiple pve trinket procs 4. no cleanse on the target It's just too unreliable to be used as an argument for lethality burst. Since for every one of these "bursts" you are equally susceptible of having the DoTs removed just before Cull, resulting in pitiful damage and leave you w/o energy. With rated on the horizon, I fear the latter will end up to be a more likely scenario.

so much fail in this sentence, not sure where to begin...

The worst is the smuggler pvp helmet, what the f**k were they thinking when they drew that up?? Not sure if they were going for the antenna head or space beetle

Couldn't help but agree bud. And the Empire side is quickly turning into mini gundam, and space witches. I wish the IA armor looks somethin in this effect http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs47/f/2009/200/c/9/Twi__lek_Smuggler_concept_by_greyfoxx082.jpg but instead we look like space welders overloaded with traffic lights , simply disgusting....

Well said, MM snipers' mobility is widely underrated on this forum. Lets see, Leth's big hitter Cull is a 3sec channel cast, and most would get into cover to use it in order to avoid interrupts. MM's big hitter Ambush requires cover, is a 2.5sec cast, or 1.5sec with snipe crit proc. When it comes to their main burst abilities, the two is nearly identical in the mobility department or even slightly favours the MM. Snipe can be instant cast every 6 secs, FT can be used outside of cover, everything else such as CD, SoS, FG, TD share the same mechanic. The only two skills that Leth/Eng that arguably give them mobility advantage are IP and CG. But for every CG, a MM can get in 2 instant snipe+ft combos, and possible 3 for each IP. (remember FT does not require cover) So you really have to ask whether the slight mobility gain is worth the huge sacrifice in burst damage. Honestly, MM's mobility is definitely there. The problem is many players simply don't take advantage of it and prefer to play turret instead.

Honestly, Leth/Eng snipers don't stand a chance against MM snipers, maybe the ones on your servers are bad.... see what I did there Lol, cover for cull, ever heard of a skill called Diversion or maybe LoS?? I'd like to see you use SoS and EP when you can't even get into cover. Sure you can use evasion, but any good MM sniper will cancel ambush immediate when they see that giant green bubble, or use Flashbang to neglect the effect. This is why I have a feeling that you've never played a proper MM sniper and think of them as sitting ducks hard casting ambush and snipe all day. MM snipers can LoS just as well, they are capable of instant snipe+ft combo every 6 secs as well as instant casts such as CD, EP, FG. And since ft does not require cover, you are free to reposition after an instant snipe. MM snipers also gain ballistic damper every 6 sec when entering into cover, an often overlooked, but surprisingly effective defensive proc that absorbs 30% incoming damage. So while your strategy requires LoS to even stand a chance (and lets be honest, LoS is not always available) , MM can be equally effective LoSing and completely wipe the floor with leth on an open field. Imo, it comes out with a slight advantage in overall scenarios. And lets not forget, a single cleanse by a team mate will render you completely worthless, but I guess that's another topic since we are talking about 1 vs 1 situation.

really, as mm I never have trouble killing leth snipers. I love seeing them too since majority of snipers are leth spec on my server.

We got a huge buff buddy, 20% healing debuff on Shatter Shot, which is a 30m range attack that lasts 9 secs with a 4.5 sec c/d. I would almost say its bordering OP.

Time takes for a lethality sniper to set up: 1. Corrosive Dart, 1.5sec Global 2. Corrosive Grenade, 1.5sec Global 3* Weakening Blast, 1.5 sec Global (optional) 4. Cull So the rotation requires 3 globals, or 4.5 sec (3 sec without WB) plus cast time, which I would estimate to be 2-3 sec. Altogether, it would take roughly 8-9 sec (5-6 sec without WB) to set up your optimal damaging rotation. Time takes for a healer to neglect 90% + of that damage: Operatives: 1. Toxin Scan, instant cast, 4.5 C/D Mercs: 1. Cure, instant cast, 4.5 C/D Granted, corrosive grenade can be applied to multiple targets, but rated teams would likely have multiple healers. On to of that, there is no way for you to keep up with the spamming (tab CD) if they are being quickly cleansed (no energy return from crits). Not to mention you are severely limited by the C/D of your main attacks (12 sec on CG, 9 sec on Cull, 15 on WB), and the predictable rotation. (hmm, CD and CG, wonder what he'll use next...) Meanwhile, MM can pump out instant snipe + followthrough every 6 secs (which can crit for 3k and 4k+ on clothies respectively), without needing any setup. I can see lethality being a good pug wz build because nobody cleanses dots and can easily top the damage meters. But come 8 men rated, it would not be as effective compare to MM. One thing I will give lethality over MM is their ability to kill tanks. Maybe that'll be their eventual role comes rated, specialized ball carrier terminators.

Ok, I'll believe you. I'll pass on the personal instruction session though, thanks for the offer.

I am sorry, but I'll have to call bs on that unless you post multiple screenshots with time stamp and cursor over your damage (to show us the biggest hits in order to rule out the possibility of a Rifle Shot+FG troll spec) to back up that claim. 400-500k on avg seems quite high for huttball for a pure MM, even if it was full duration.

Excellent post! As a Valor 64 Sniper I couldn't agree more. We are much needed of a get away ability, something similar to a marauder's vanish/cheat death, or a sorc's bubble+sprint. As of now, we are basically sitting ducks once a melee jumps in range, it is bad enough that OPs annihilate us when caught without CC breaker. The only reason why I continue to play this class is for the occasional epic crit on sages/sorcs (had a 6.5k ambush crit yesterday). This class has the potential to be great, it is time for Bioware to step up and fix this mess!

thanks for all the replies! Here is another question, from a strictly dps perspective, would it be worth it to swap the +61 Cunning +37 Endurance +11 Critical Rating mod with +45 Cunning +27 Endurance +34 Power?

whats sad is our problems are prob. last on biofail's fix list, being the least played class and all. Imagine if sorcs were in our position, this thread would be sticky by now.

Anyone know who drops this schematics? Also, is it better than the 34end/57cunnin/10power mod? thanks

glad i am not the only who noticed this ridiculous 'fix'. bioware's solution to fix pvp frame rates: lower graphical settings remove turret firing what's next, remove npcs? how abt remove spell graphics on ilum altogether, that ought to smooth things over...

let's compare a sniper ability and a sage/sorc ability: Telekinetic Throw Instant Force: 30 Cooldown: 6s Range: 10 m Hurls a volley of debris at the target, dealing 4011 kinetic damage and slowing movement speed by 50%. Standard and weak targets are immobilized for the duration. and Series of Shots Instant Energy: 20 Cooldown: 15s Range: 30 m Unleashes a series of shots that deals 3353 - 3736 weapon damage over the duration. Must be in cover to use. TT has a build in snare, a lower cool down, and since sorcs/sage have nearly unlimited energy, you can say its pretty much free. OH, did i mention TT does more dmg because being tech, it ignores defence while SoS has to pass every single defensive roll... AND best of all, YOU CANT EVEN USE IT OUTSIDE OF COVER!!! The only advantage SoS has is its 20 m range advantage, which is fckin laughable considering the 31 pt talent of the MM tree revolves around this ability, which does less dmg and offers less utility than a lvl 6 sorc/sage spell, how pathetic. How the hell did the developers overlook such glaring imbalance is beyond me, but something need to be done.

lmao, a sniper's SoS has the same mechanics as the Telekinetic Throw (3sec channel) except it doesn't have a build in slow has a longer cooldown (6secs vs 15 secs). Did i mention it does less dmg?? such class balance failure

Okay, I will give you that. Lets just pretend the coding was so complicated it would take them a long time to fix despite reports from as early as beta. Now that still does not justify the lying on the patch note. "Fixed an issue that could prevent players from receiving mission rewards for completing Warzones." Please enlighten me as how this can be interpreted otherwise, as read by an average gamer. It could be a "wording problem" like you have suggested, but other will classify it as a grade A lie. Regardless, neither is acceptable practice from a respectable company. And if was written to be purposely misleading, then the problem is even worst than I had originally thought....

And they had since beta to fix that screw up. Not only did they not fix it, they actually had to guts to lie in the patch note. To me, that's worst than not fixing the bug, it is approaching the realm of fraud, a huge hit on the company's integrity. Makes you wonder what other unethical practice the company is capable of doing.

That's the standard combo before u get the 31 pt talent. Back Blast -> blaster whip -> vital shot -> sucker punch and finish with a probe/grenade combo. Pretty standard stuff, and I am pretty sure all <32 scoundrel/op have used.

Okay, then the time the players have invested into PvPing is what should be "buying" the gears. Except now, it doesn't.