Expertise scales better for healers

[Khoraji]

 

No amount of interrupts stops a healer (realistically, 5 coordinated DPS can naturally), each one has a basic 3 options and a general panic button. All of which erase any dps a single guy can ever do.

 

 

elementary... 1 guy gets 10 percent bonus, other guy gets 2 different 10 percent bonuses, who benefits more?? Argue this some more, its amusing me.

 

Sorcs/operatives/mercs can also heal. So those DPS classes get 2 different 10 percent bonuses as well. Not to mention as a dedicated healer, the 10% damage bonus rarely comes into play. Keep pretending like expertise mechanics is why you can't kill someone.

 

3 basic heals plus a panic button huh? Where are these 3 basic heals that will negate 4-7k crits by a DPS?

 

Merc Healer:

Option 1- Healing Scan: 1.5 second heal with a 12 second cooldown that normally goes off for around 2-3k (plus a very small HoT)

 

Option 2 - Rapid Scan: 2 Second heal with no cooldown and hits for around 2-5k depending on adrenals and cooldowns are popped. Usually its around 2500 without a crit.

 

where is the 3rd basic heal? thought so.

 

Emergency Option: Emergency Scan which is a weaker heal than Rapid Scan and has a 21 second cooldown.

[HooverHog]

Sad that only two people alluded to this before.

 

Healers get +% heals. DPSers get +% damage. These two facts (generally) balance out.

 

EVERYONE gets -% damage.

 

You're going up against a healer solo and you're complaining that the healer is getting to utilize both of these bonuses simultaneously while you aren't? Damn... how unfortunate for you... the nature of the combat you are involved in is so one-sided that the defensive bonus your gear gives you ISN'T EVEN BEING USED.

 

Also, 1 DPS is not supposed to be able to solo 1 healer in any reasonably short amount of time (assuming both classes are using interrupts/cc/snares/etc).

 

Why are people not seeing this? It's balanced around team on team. Healers get +heal, dps get +damage, everyone gets damage mitigation.

 

Also, like Lace has said (and others) several times: The primary/secondary stats provide a much lesser bonus for healing than they do for damage.

 

If a DPS get +% Damage and Defense, then a Healer gets +% Damage, Healing, and Defense. The damage and defense negate one another. Nothing negates the bonus healing. If expertise gave -% Healing received by target of your attack, your argument would be accurate.

 

Additionally, you are absolutely correct that PvP is not balanced around 1v1. If it was, I would call for a healer buff as many classes can (slowly) work them down. However, healers only get MORE powerful when placed in a group situation, especially if there are a few other healers in that group

 

Finally, primary/secondary stats have lower healing coefficent, but the heals themselves have a larger coefficient than damaging attacks, so having a lower base bonus does not imply healing for a lower total amount.

[Orangerascal]

Shoot First is 2.48

 

Here are some heals and attacks from the Sorc to compare:

 

Static Barrier = 3.27

Dark Infusion (3 second heal) = 3.41

Dark Heal (1.5 second heal) = 1.75

 

Lightning Strike (1.5 second attack) = 1.32

Chain Lightning (3 second aoe) = 2.02

Thundering Blast (2 second attack) = 1.58

 

This is a very limited list, but it shows a trend in abilities (that have short or no cooldowns) to have a significantly higher coefficient on heals than damaging attacks. Unless all of the skills I looked at (more than I listed here) are outliers then I think it's still unfair to say that healers are allowed to scale more with expertise just because their base bonus healing is lower than base bonus damage. This discrepancy is more than made up for in the individual skill coefficients.

 

chain lightning is usually instantly casted

thundering blast is elemental damage and not used in pvp

lightning strike is not used in pvp for good reason.

 

Real pvp abilities:

Telekenetic throw (per tick, 4 ticks in 3s): 0.79

Project: 1.85

Force in balance: 1.87

Telekinetic wave (3s aoe): 2.02 (usually instant cast because of POM)

Weaken Mind: 0.31 (5 ticks)

 

With the exception of weaken mind and TT all of these abilities have more coefficient than Dark Heal (1.5 second heal) = 1.75. Dark Infusion (3 second heal) = 3.41 is obviously quite large because ... it's a 3s cast. It actually scales worse than dark infusion.

 

I love how the guy below you quoted you though

Someone who actually knows w t f. Nice to see.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Yeren]

aha! Point taken.

 

Still, you could still break it by a knockback/pull/stun. It's a good tactic though and one I hadn't thought of until now

 

The knockback/pull/stun .... Only breaks it for what 2 seconds? I think the issue the healers in here (myself included) is that some people are forgetting that stuff.

 

Pull - breaks our cast

KB - breaks our cast

Stun - breaks cast and keeps us from healing

Interrupt - breaks cast

Interrupt 2 (some classes) - another break cast

 

Some of those KB's can be speced to root. Healers can get a beatdown. A 5 man team can probably take down 2 healers and a tank if they split up to CC/interrupt casts, but it still takes some time and the bomb is planted. I think this leads to what is normally seen as one of the big issues in PVP right now .... STUNFEST!

 

Glad I could give you a new tactic .... as a healer I find ways to keep people busy for just long enough for something to happen (cap turret, plant bomb, or score a TD). I get SUPER focused on my server it seems so I have to find some other way to be useful to my team (i.e. pulling DPS away from the turret in Alderan).

Edited March 15, 2012 by Yeren

[Demarcc]

If a DPS get +% Damage and Defense, then a Healer gets +% Damage, Healing, and Defense. The damage and defense negate one another. Nothing negates the bonus healing. If expertise gave -% Healing received by target of your attack, your argument would be accurate.

 

Additionally, you are absolutely correct that PvP is not balanced around 1v1. If it was, I would call for a healer buff as many classes can (slowly) work them down. However, healers only get MORE powerful when placed in a group situation, especially if there are a few other healers in that group

 

Finally, primary/secondary stats have lower healing coefficent, but the heals themselves have a larger coefficient than damaging attacks, so having a lower base bonus does not imply healing for a lower total amount.

 

The damage and defense WOULD cancel each other out if the two partys were doing the same damage to each other. Everyone know's healer (with the exception of BH/Troopers when at 30 stacks) do crap for damage. So in effect the net result is the DPS'r gets much more value from his 10% attack (10% of 2000 is greater than 10% of 500 .. trust me)

 

Now you could argue that the healer gains more from the defense stat since mitigating 10% of 2000 is better than mitigating 10% of 500 based on raw numbers (Ie the DPS'r mitigates 50 and the healer mitigates 200) The simple case is though that at those rates without healing the healer will die. Healers would become valor-cows. So healers heal to offset incoming damage. Now this is a choice .. heal or DPS. Healers tend to heal and run away since its not helping our team standing there trading blows with a DPS, and will generally get you killed Vs a good DPS anyway.

 

I do agree that healers get more powerful in a group situation, thats the archtype tho. Tanks also get more powerful in a group situation, as do DPS who can assist and work interrupt rotation.

 

I am all for Bioware making the WZ's queues more balanced and adding a *Queue as* feature where you queue's as a healer / tank / DPS and the game tried to balance the groups. I hate 5 healer games as much as anyone else. Nerfing healers on an individual basis because of that is dumb though. As is nerfing healers b/c some other classes have trouble (or cant) take them down 1v1. There are several classes that can destroy healers 1V1, if your not playing one get some help on that healer, its a team game. If you are playing one .. well get better.

 

I mean as a healer should I be calling for nerfs on marauders and sentinals b/c I cant solo a good one? Yet people feel its fine for them to call for a nerf on healers when they can solo one? /boggle. Bit of a one way street here no?

[Yeren]

The damage and defense WOULD cancel each other out if the two partys were doing the same damage to each other. Everyone know's healer (with the exception of BH/Troopers when at 30 stacks) do crap for damage. So in effect the net result is the DPS'r gets much more value from his 10% attack (10% of 2000 is greater than 10% of 500 .. trust me)

 

Now you could argue that the healer gains more from the defense stat since mitigating 10% of 2000 is better than mitigating 10% of 500 based on raw numbers (Ie the DPS'r mitigates 50 and the healer mitigates 200) The simple case is though that at those rates without healing the healer will die. Healers would become valor-cows. So healers heal to offset incoming damage. Now this is a choice .. heal or DPS. Healers tend to heal and run away since its not helping our team standing there trading blows with a DPS, and will generally get you killed Vs a good DPS anyway.

 

I do agree that healers get more powerful in a group situation, thats the archtype tho. Tanks also get more powerful in a group situation, as do DPS who can assist and work interrupt rotation.

 

I am all for Bioware making the WZ's queues more balanced and adding a *Queue as* feature where you queue's as a healer / tank / DPS and the game tried to balance the groups. I hate 5 healer games as much as anyone else. Nerfing healers on an individual basis because of that is dumb though. As is nerfing healers b/c some other classes have trouble (or cant) take them down 1v1. There are several classes that can destroy healers 1V1, if your not playing one get some help on that healer, its a team game. If you are playing one .. well get better.

 

I mean as a healer should I be calling for nerfs on marauders and sentinals b/c I cant solo a good one? Yet people feel its fine for them to call for a nerf on healers when they can solo one? /boggle. Bit of a one way street here no?

 

I have a feeling that some of this stems from servers where 1 side is rolling in warzones all the time. I know on my server it takes literally 4 - 5 hrs to get 3 daily wins during the peak hours of play. Gets SUPER annoying and what I see most of the time is stacked healer teams on the other side when we have 1 maybe 2 usually. Even as a healer its SUPER annoying.

[Demarcc]

I have a feeling that some of this stems from servers where 1 side is rolling in warzones all the time. I know on my server it takes literally 4 - 5 hrs to get 3 daily wins during the peak hours of play. Gets SUPER annoying and what I see most of the time is stacked healer teams on the other side when we have 1 maybe 2 usually. Even as a healer its SUPER annoying.

 

Yup.

 

People around here seem to think that us healers just want to have 5 healer games so we can stand around and heal each other all the time. Thats not the case. We hate those game as much as you do. we have no DPS on our team and cant kill crap either. Hell In games like that I generally just forgo healing and try to DPS as much as I can .. for what its worth.

 

To Clarify ... healers HATE 5 healer games too. Nerfing us wont fix that issue, its an issue with the way people are assigned to games and biowares total lack of understanding with thier *build random teams* crap. Its also really annoying to get a huttball game with 3 smugg, 3 commandos and maby a JK or two on your team when then other side has three sages, 3 vanguards and a couple of healers .. yes those games irk me too. Your team has squat for mobilty (You Jk leaps up to them and gets pwn'd .. joy) while thier team is charging around, pulling you and thier own team about and generally whooping your arse.

 

If you want to ***** about 5 healer games, ***** about the queue system .. not the healers !!!

[Darth_Ricky]

Can any1 whose not a nub argue w/ these facts:

 

Expertise favor's healing

 

Bio made heals do 30% less in pvp to balence that u need more heals for instance's

 

Bonus dmg scales betten then bonus heal

 

Heal abilities got a higher cofficient then dmg ablities

 

As u get geared its better to have cofficient then bonus

 

As u get geared u have signicifantly more hp then non-geared

 

 

Now pls tell me how those FACTS don't add up to what so many ppl are saying- that at high gear lvls the balence of pvp gets favored more to healing

[HooverHog]

chain lightning is usually instantly casted

thundering blast is elemental damage and not used in pvp

lightning strike is not used in pvp for good reason.

 

Real pvp abilities:

Telekenetic throw (per tick, 4 ticks in 3s): 0.79

Project: 1.85

Force in balance: 1.87

Telekinetic wave (3s): 2.02 (usually instant cast because of POM)

Weaken Mind:

 

With the exception of TT all of these abilities have more coefficient than Dark Heal (1.5 second heal) = 1.75, Dark Infusion (3 second heal) = 3.41 is obviously quite large because ... it's a 3s cast.

 

I love how the guy below you quoted you though

 

 

I see. I was looking under advanced class, not base class. I was wondering where TT and Project were hiding. This is good information, but it only really shows that the most efficient attacks have slightly better coefficients than the least efficient (HPS-wise, AND Force-wise, of course Force is a non-resource in PvP, but that's another discussion entirely) heal. They still don't hold a candle to the shield which in a 1v1 vacuum could be seen as an instant cast dark infusion with a 17 second cooldown. Obviously it gets much much better in groups.

 

As to Dark Infusion itself (since we're bringing up talents), sure it's a 3 second cast, but it's actually a 2.5 for anyone casting it, and for healers it's a 1.5 every 6 seconds. Which is at least every other cast of it, and (with a very small rotation) every cast.

 

However, this does illustrate probably the most direct comparison between a heal and a damaging attack:

 

Healing Trance - 1.03

Telekinetic Wave - 0.79

 

These spells are in all other ways mirror images of themselves, 4 ticks of damage/healing during a 3 second channel, but the heal has a much larger coefficient.

Edited March 15, 2012 by HooverHog

[Demarcc]

Can any1 whose not a nub argue w/ these facts:

 

Expertise favor's healing Agreed

 

Bio made heals do 30% less in pvp to balence that u need more heals for instance's Source pls? AFAIK the added trauma to make the games faster non heal fests. I've never read anything about instances requiring more healing. Theres WAY more damage floating about in WZ's than in instances .. WAY MORE

 

Bonus dmg scales betten then bonus heal Agreed

 

Heal abilities got a higher cofficient then dmg ablities Not so. I refure you to a post 1 page back

 

As u get geared its better to have cofficient then bonus See above

 

As u get geared u have signicifantly more hp then non-geared Agreed

 

 

Now pls tell me how those FACTS don't add up to what so many ppl are saying- that at high gear lvls the balence of pvp gets favored more to healing

 

Answers in bold

[Dudious]

If a DPS get +% Damage and Defense, then a Healer gets +% Damage, Healing, and Defense. The damage and defense negate one another. Nothing negates the bonus healing. If expertise gave -% Healing received by target of your attack, your argument would be accurate.

 

Ok, we can look at it like that too:

Healer gets: +Heal, +Damage, +Defense

DPS gets: +Heal, +Damage, +Defense

 

Several DPS classes have a heal they can cast which gets a benefit. Additionally, classes that don't have these abilities generally have talents/set bonuses that return health based on damage dealt - these all benefit from expertise +healing.

 

Sure, the DPS class gets less overall benefit from the +healing effect, but the healing class gets less overall benefit from the +damage effect.

 

Additionally, you are absolutely correct that PvP is not balanced around 1v1. If it was, I would call for a healer buff as many classes can (slowly) work them down. However, healers only get MORE powerful when placed in a group situation, especially if there are a few other healers in that group

 

Every class gets more powerful in a group. Focus firing damage classes are much more powerful than two DPSers just doing their thing separately, much as cross-healing healers are more effective than when they are both doing their own thing. It's harder to make the same analogy with tanks, but we all know how valuable they are to groups already.

 

Finally, primary/secondary stats have lower healing coefficent, but the heals themselves have a larger coefficient than damaging attacks, so having a lower base bonus does not imply healing for a lower total amount.

 

I think the design intention is as follows:

Heals, on average, are harder to get off than damaging abilities so the healer is rewarded for doing so with a better coefficient. Obviously most healing abilities have longer cast times than damage abilities so get a higher coefficient by default, but when comparing 1.5s lightning to 1.5s dark heal, the heal still gets a higher coefficient - I believe this is due to what I just said.

 

I've also considered that it may be because talent trees generally have more talents that boost damage (within any one tree) than talents that boost healing (in the healing tree). I may actually be wrong with this assessment, but it's a general feeling I have when perusing talent trees of various classes.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Dudious

[Demarcc]

I see. I was looking under advanced class, not base class. I was wondering where TT and Project were hiding. This is good information, but it only really shows that the most efficient attacks have slightly better coefficients than the least efficient (HPS-wise, not Force-wise, Force is a non-resource in PvP, but that's another discussion entirely) heal. They still don't hold a candle to the shield which in a 1v1 vacuum could be seen as an instant cast dark infusion with a 17 second cooldown. Obviously it gets much much better in groups.

 

As to Dark Infusion itself (since we're bringing up talents), sure it's a 3 second cast, but it's actually a 2.5 for anyone casting it, and for healers it's a 1.5 every 6 seconds. Which is at least every other cast of it, and (with a very small rotation) every cast.

 

However, this does illustrate probably the most direct comparison between a heal and a damaging attack:

 

Healing Trance - 1.03

Telekinetic Wave - 0.79

 

These spells are in all other ways mirror images of themselves, 4 ticks of damage/healing during a 3 second channel, but the heal has a much larger coefficient.

 

If your bringing up talents be sure to factor the DPS additional talents to thier attacks in thier trees please. Dont just cherry pick the healers talents. EG as a scrapper you can get 16% to backblast / shoot first as a T1 talent .. that crap adds up !

 

As for the shield, yer that crap is OP, said that from day 1. However labeling healers OP b/c 1 archtype gets what I think we can all agree on is an instant OP shield is kinda lame. I dont get a shield as a smugg .. why nerf me?

[Orangerascal]

Healing Trance - 1.03

Telekinetic Wave - 0.79

 

These spells are in all other ways mirror images of themselves, 4 ticks of damage/healing during a 3 second channel, but the heal has a much larger coefficient.

 

The healing is a 21 pt ability in the healing tree and has a higher coolown cooldown.

 

Also healing is suppose to be higher than dps. but your right, this particle heal is much better than the dps counter part. This is probably due to the good talent you get for this ability.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Orangerascal

[HooverHog]

Actually, having JUST looked at the sorc healing tree I was amazed to see how much plus healing they have in there. Most of the DPS trees I know about are focused more on DoTs or Crits and less on flat damage boosting.

 

My argument relating to group vs. 1v1 is that healers get more powerful in a group setting than other classes do in a group setting. 1v1 a healer will almost always lose to a DPS (gear, skill, etc. being equal), but 1 Healer + Anything will generally beat out 2 non-healers. This problem becomes more apparent as gear levels increase and heals gain more benefit (through expertise) than damaging attacks.

[Darth_Ricky]

Answers in bold

 

So all u need is to be shown that boss fights need more healing power (lol?),, and that coeficients favor heal..

[Darth_Ricky]

Also healing is suppose to be higher than dps.

 

Why's that

[Orangerascal]

Why's that

 

Too many reasons to list. Compare and contrast every mmo that's ever been out. I'm not going in the mood to explain why healing needs to be greater than damage as that's irrelevant to the thread.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Dzhokhar]

Why's that

 

If it isn't, groups will always be better off with an additional DPSer instead of a healer.

[Darth_Ricky]

Too many reasons to list. Compare and contrast every mmo that's ever been out. I'm not going in the mood to argue why healing needs to be greater than damage as that's irrelevant to the thread.

 

Wrong but, to be clear-

 

U agree expertse favors healers

 

U put in your blog that dps was rly favored based on 'bonus dmg'

 

Then u got owned on the coeficient issue..

 

Now u retreat to "its suppose to be that way"

 

 

Lol, sry.. U lose.

[HooverHog]

If your bringing up talents...

 

First, I find it very amusing that everyone calls them talents. (myself included)

 

Second, I mentioned that particular skill because the justification for Dark Infusion having a ridiculously good coefficient is the incredibly long cast time. This is not a fair justification when a healer will almost never spend more than 1.5 seconds casting it. If anyone here is able to look at entire skill trees and sum up their total effect on the game and class balance, I'm sure BioWare offers a very competitive salary.

 

The shield is perhaps a red herring, but so is taking the best damaging attacks and comparing them to the worst heal.

 

The healing is a 21 pt ability in the healing tree and has a higher coolown cooldown.

 

Also healing is suppose to be higher than dps. but your right, this particle heal is much better than the dps counter part. This is probably due to the good talent you get for this ability.

 

It is hard to say if it is so much better due to it being a talent or simply due to it being a heal. This is because there are maybe 7 truly different heals in the game. Most healing classes just have duplicates of abilities other healing classes have and individual healers have...4(?) healing spells. This means there are not a lot of places where comparisons can be easily drawn between healing abilities and damaging abilities. But, if you look hard enough, you can probably find some damaging attack that has the exact same mechanics as each of the heals. In all of those cases, I am sure that the healing ability coefficient will be higher than the damaging ability's.

 

With that said, doesn't your bolded statement contradict your blog which states that primary stat scaling for heals is worse than scaling for damage, therefore extra scaling from expertise on heals only serves to balance this out?

Edited March 15, 2012 by HooverHog

[Khoraji]

heals are supposed to be higher than dmg. or whats the point if you cant keep anyone alive? NO ONE would heal if you could out damage uninterrupted heals.

[Orangerascal]

Wrong but, to be clear-

 

U agree expertse favors healers

 

U put in your blog that dps was rly favored based on 'bonus dmg'

 

Then u got owned on the coeficient issue..

 

Now u retreat to "its suppose to be that way"

 

 

Lol, sry.. U lose.

 

1) It's not a contest, the fact you think so speaks volumes about your character. It's not about who is wrong or right, but about not spreading mis-information, which leads to nothing. The developers probably /facepalm when they read threads like this and this drowns out actual valuable threads.

 

2) My blogs were written long before this thread, and I've even predicted whiners like you would whine about expertise. Interesting how you're so predictable huh?

 

3) Read the coefficients argument again. Most of the abilities posted were abilities not used in pvp ... hmm ... I wonder why ... maybe because they suck. . Abilities used in pvp actually have a higher coefficient. It's amazing you didn't even get this. I blame the public education system.

 

4) You find 1 ability (that you spend 21 pts up the tree and has a longer cooldown) that beats it's not so identical dps counterpart. Have you the intellectual capacity to understand why it's better at 21 pts in the tree, or that it's better because the cooldown is longer? If you don't nothing I can do or say can help you understand basic mmo 101

 

5) Most pvpers intuitively know why healing is better than damage. Me introducing it into the argument is not a 'retreat to "its suppose to be that way"'. It's interesting that this is your argument.

 

6) QQ all you want. Most well made premades will not be running 4 healers. These are the metrics bioware will see. Your whining is entertaining though, and a nice diversion while waiting for the queue to pop.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Orangerascal

[HooverHog]

heals are supposed to be higher than dmg. or whats the point if you cant keep anyone alive? NO ONE would heal if you could out damage uninterrupted heals.

 

This is the exact point of the thread. Heals already heal for more than damaging attacks deal, so as expertise increases (equally between the two combatants) the damaging attacks will fall further and further behind the heals until a healer cannot be killed 1v1. Now, the very low hard cap on expertise is currently preventing this, but if that cap is changed in the future as gear levels increase, then a problem will arise.

[Dzhokhar]

This is the exact point of the thread. Heals already heal for more than damaging attacks deal, so as expertise increases (equally between the two combatants) the damaging attacks will fall further and further behind the heals until a healer cannot be killed 1v1. Now, the very low hard cap on expertise is currently preventing this, but if that cap is changed in the future as gear levels increase, then a problem will arise.

 

Related to this:

 

If the cap doesn't increase, new PvP gear tiers will either have to be identical to previous tiers or become significantly better for PvE than the current lower PvE tiers. BioWare has already stated that the latter will not be occurring, and the former would make new PvP tiers unnecessary/undesirable (and would result in higher PvE tiers dominating PvP).

[Darth_Ricky]

2) My blogs were written long before this thread, and I've even predicted whiners like you would whine about expertise. Interesting how you're so predictable huh?

 

nice predict, but hey i can predict that if i take a dump in the office fridg theres gona be an email. so gj on the predict of the obvios, ppl been sayin this for expertise since at least jan. its only now as more & more ppl are fully gear'd that more ppl see whats up.

 

but hey since u brung up

 

spreading mis-information

 

lets take a look @ what u did.. u picked 1 part of data, thats not at all the most importent data, and then ur like "SEE THIS MEANS EXPERTISE DONT REALLY MAKE HEALS OP". when rly the coeficient is more importent then the diffs in bonus u showed. so was that "mis-information" or u just bein a nub?

 

but basicaly all u got left, with all the data showing your wrong, is

 

5) Most pvpers intuitively know why healing is better than damage.

 

...and yea most pvpers know if heal is to strong in a game. The more ppl got gear'd, the more QQ about heal we have seen, just as shown by the predicts from 2 months ago talking bout how expertiste stat favors heals to much.