Dear Georg Zoeller: You're still not getting it.

[CleverClothe]

If all fights have 100% predictable damage then this would be true. Unfortunately that is not the case.

 

You didn't do a very good job of trolling the bubble discussion, do you really want to start with this?

 

You don't need to know how much damage the raid is taking to be able to calculate HPS, HPE, HPCT or sustainability, and compare that between the classes. You only need to know about raid damage to judge if the healing is good enough. But the general consensus of the raiding community is that all three healing classes have good enough healing.

[Doki]

I can't believe I'm going to say this *again* - the discussion was around the need to spend 4 talent points in an ability to make it marginallyuseful. People who believe as the above poster should not spend the 4 points in DS which make it worth (in my opinion) casting.

 

Fixed your post for you.

 

I know I shouldn't feed trolls, but the assertion that 4-pointing DS is worthwhile is hysterical, so I want to see it keep going.

[Doki]

Oh, and why address Georg Zoeller in a post on the Ops boards? They nerfed Ops FIVE TIMES IN A ROW and haven't had the stones, nor the community respect, to come here and discuss it with the community. Do you think that will suddenly change, or does someone have a "grow ********s" wand onhand?

[Ryemfoh]

You didn't do a very good job of trolling the bubble discussion, do you really want to start with this?

 

You don't need to know how much damage the raid is taking to be able to calculate HPS, HPE, HPCT or sustainability, and compare that between the classes. You only need to know about raid damage to judge if the healing is good enough. But the general consensus of the raiding community is that all three healing classes have good enough healing.

 

I wasn't trolling anything - I was simply responding to people's arguments about the usefulness of DS in a normal Operative healing rotation, and specifically the need to put points into it to make it useful.

 

HPS, HPE and HPCT are all very nice numbers on paper, but only make up part of the story.

 

Yes, you can simulate performance given various different scenarios (heavy movement, burst requirement, etc), but to the best of my knowledge (checked the latest swtor-SimulationCraft build about a week ago) no-one has actually done this work yet and the Operative community is basing all their QQ on these paper-numbers, NOT actual, hard evidence.

 

Do you have an Operative simulator I can use? If so, please share it with the community! That would be much more useful than your previous 2 posts.

 

Fixed your post for you.

 

I know I shouldn't feed trolls, but the assertion that 4-pointing DS is worthwhile is hysterical, so I want to see it keep going.

 

As much as I would love to debate the degrees of usefulness with you, I think I will refrain, and leave you with this thought:

If a person is sinking 4 talent points into an ability they viewed as only marginally useful, who is the fool?

 

As an aside, I would love to hear people's opinions of DS post-1.2, considering the 30% speed buff requires just 3% more Alacrity (or the T1 Lethality talent) to hit 2 ticks in 1 GCD. Still a waste of 4 points?

[Amiable]

Ryemof - Let me try to explain this to you succinctly: there is zero comparison between DS and the bubble because the bubble, even untalented, is incredibly useful. However a fully talented DS is only marginally useful and an untalented DS is total garbage.

 

Edit: the new changes to DS may make it "useful" but I will have to see it in action. 600-700 healing in one GCD is still quite meh.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Amiable

[Ryemfoh]

Ryemof - Let me try to explain this to you succinctly: there is zero comparison between DS and the bubble because the bubble, even untalented, is incredibly useful. However a fully talented DS is only marginally useful and an untalented DS is total garbage.

 

Edit: the new changes to DS may make it "useful" but I will have to see it in action. 600-700 healing in one GCD is still quite meh.

 

If you think that DS is there for the healing you are definitely doing it wrong.

 

Also, if you think that healing Sorcerers will waste a GCD casting an untalented bubble (particularly with the Force Bending bug-fix) you know nothing about Sorc healing ...

 

Oh - one more thing: I wasn't comparing DS to Bubble. I was comparing the need to use 4 points to make an ability worth using in your standard rotation. Other people then compared the two, and I simply responded to their posts.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Ryemfoh

[Xaearth]

As much as I would love to debate the degrees of usefulness with you, I think I will refrain, and leave you with this thought:

If a person is sinking 4 talent points into an ability they viewed as only marginally useful, who is the fool?

 

The person that doesn't even play the class much less bother to look at their skill trees to realize that all of our other fillers to move up the healer tree are just as horribad.

[Ich_Bin]

Great, now we are having the Diagnostic Scan vs. Sorc Bubble discussion again. Why don't we go ahead and compare a VW Polo to a Monster Truck (both have 4 wheels) while we are at it? We could probably fill another five pages by doing that. Edited March 20, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[Ryemfoh]

The person that doesn't even play the class much less bother to look at their skill trees to realize that all of our other fillers to move up the healer tree are just as horribad.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401MffMzhRRds.1

 

Find me 4 points in there that are "worse" than the 4 you claim I need to sink into DS in order to advance up the tree.

[Xaearth]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401MffMzhRRds.1

 

Find me 4 points in there that are "worse" than the 4 you claim I need to sink into DS in order to advance up the tree.

 

4? No, but you hit 3 of them with Tox Screen and Evasive Imperative.

[Ryemfoh]

4? No, but you hit 3 of them with Tox Screen and Evasive Imperative.

 

So you would rather put 4 points into an ability which you never use, than 2 into a mini-sprint (enhanced survivability) and 1 into a decent buff to your cleanse skill? Wow.

[Solaras]

Interview here: http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/1

 

Take a lesson from WoW, which SWTOR is obviously modeled after. Druids faced the same dilemma. They were "just fine" in clearing all content in vanilla WoW. But they provided no useful utility that other classes didn't have. Their heals were fine, but they had no res and no bubble that priests had. There was no point of druids.

 

We don't want to be "satisfactory" in Operations. We want to have a purpose.

 

Um...resto druids...31 point innervate..member?

[Kunda]

Go read the PTS forums then?

 

My post was up before the notes were released, sir.

[Xaearth]

So you would rather put 4 points into an ability which you never use, than 2 into a mini-sprint (enhanced survivability) and 1 into a decent buff to your cleanse skill? Wow.

 

Rofl "decent".

 

The only time survivability matters is in PvP, and, because our main "survivability" cooldown is Cloaking Screen, we need to save Evasion to cleanse DoTs to make it useable... because our cleanse is useless against half the ACs out there (more than a simple 50% pop, useless against any glowbats) even with the talent.

 

Nice try though.

[Ryemfoh]

Rofl "decent".

 

The only time survivability matters is in PvP, and, because our main "survivability" cooldown is Cloaking Screen, we need to save Evasion to cleanse DoTs to make it useable... because our cleanse is useless against half the ACs out there (more than a simple 50% pop, useless against any glowbats) even with the talent.

 

If you think being able to move faster during repositioning in PVE is useless you, sir, are doing it wrong.

 

Even if you do believe that it is useless in PVE, why would you ever choose to sink 4 points into an ability you never use, over 2 points into some added utility on an ability you use sometimes? You know, I don't even believe you would ... you just don't want to admit you were wrong.

 

Nice try though.

[Bohnur]

I just quit SWTOR until they fix operatives and am playing my rogue and druid on WOW. I had forgotten how refined these two classes and the combat in WOW are.

[alanisUDL]

Rofl "decent".

 

The only time survivability matters is in PvP, and, because our main "survivability" cooldown is Cloaking Screen, we need to save Evasion to cleanse DoTs to make it useable... because our cleanse is useless against half the ACs out there (more than a simple 50% pop, useless against any glowbats) even with the talent.

 

Nice try though.

 

I agree with your assessment of Evasive Imperative-- it just doesn't appear to be that helpful, even though I usually use it to clear dots at different times, not just when I want to cloak.

 

However, I use Tox Screen a ton and having this ability not only heal, but clear mental effects (specifically the aoe mezzes that so many classes have) is vital to me. I can't afford our second healer or top dps to be CCd for a full 8 seconds.

 

I started putting DS back into my rotation about 2-3 weeks ago in preparation for some kind of buff to DS. I actually think the 1.2 buff is pretty decent, as with my current even small amount of alacrity, in addition to the buff, will bring that 3s channel down into the 1.8 second timeframe. This makes DS very viable and a decent ability.

[Xaearth]

However, I use Tox Screen a ton and having this ability not only heal, but clear mental effects (specifically the aoe mezzes that so many classes have) is vital to me. I can't afford our second healer or top dps to be CCd for a full 8 seconds.

 

I want to say with relative certainty that the only mental effects players have access to are the stealth out of combat mezzes (and maybe taunts?), but it's been a while since I've even logged in so my memory could be foggy.

[Apokelypse]

I think this issue will be worked out exactly the same as Druids in WoW. The position is the same, Dev public denial of any problems, community fully aware of the problem. Over the next 12-24 month period, the number of Operatives actively being played will drop to very low number, and the Devs will acknowledge the issue, and rework the class from the ground up in the first major expansion. It will just take that long for them to catch up.

 

Just play a Sorceror until that happens.

 

Yeah..it took about 5 years for that to happen in wow for druids.

Remember the "no cat run speed indoors"

Remember the "no roots indoors"

Remember the absence of a feral druid tier set in vanilla

 

I'm not going to make it 5 years ...or even one year if this is how its going to be. I'd prefer to not have to play a lightsaber class to be treated as a paying customer.

[GeoLager]

Admits operatives are one of the least played class.

 

Response: Nerf it to the point nobody ever wants to play the class again. Game is now balanced.

Edited March 20, 2012 by GeoLager

[goulet]

so we're within 5 percent of marauders? are these the same marauders that are getting completely overhauled in the patch because of deficiencies? the same patch where those operatives who are 5 percent behind now got nerfed?

 

-for starters why are we comparing a class with a finite energy pool (operatives) to a class that does damage to do more damage, and doesn't run out of energy?

 

-Rage is more sustainable then energy but rage is the higher damage?

 

- ranged vs melee question, and the response is about bringing an operative healer (who operates at ranged mind you.)

 

 

lets talk melee vs melee for raids using the interview.

-marauders do 5 % more damage

-marauders have an "energy pool" (rage) that doesn't run out, it just has to be build up. There's no severe gcd limitations on it (theres only one big rage building ability on a long cd)

-marauders have a constant 20 percent armor penetration once stacked, with the potential for an additional 20 which is always up vs operatives 30.

-marauders dual wield contributes more to their attacks vs operatives which just increase based off stats (operatives knife isn't the primary contributor to melee attacks its tech power). Marauders get the weapon damage increase from 2 weapons plus the stat increases.

-marauders: buffed this patch, Operatives: i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say we'll be able to achieve the same damage we have now, but through talents and not base ability strength. Marauders are 5 percent better now, will get better with the patch, operatives dont change now to the patch=marauders are even better then 5% post patch.

 

why bring an operative dps for melee over marauder?

 

 

i wont say that operatives dont need a nerf, i dont have access to the information that bioware has. What i will say is that the way they present their argument for nerfing this class seems to historically be presented in a rather confounding manner. Which is only made worse when the complaints of the community seem largely unnoticed in terms of the classes issues for being improved.

[hulkweazel]

so we're within 5 percent of marauders? are these the same marauders that are getting completely overhauled in the patch because of deficiencies? the same patch where those operatives who are 5 percent behind now got nerfed?

 

-for starters why are we comparing a class with a finite energy pool (operatives) to a class that does damage to do more damage, and doesn't run out of energy?

 

-Rage is more sustainable then energy but rage is the higher damage?

 

- ranged vs melee question, and the response is about bringing an operative healer (who operates at ranged mind you.)

 

 

lets talk melee vs melee for raids using the interview.

-marauders do 5 % more damage

-marauders have an "energy pool" (rage) that doesn't run out, it just has to be build up. There's no severe gcd limitations on it (theres only one big rage building ability on a long cd)

-marauders have a constant 20 percent armor penetration once stacked, with the potential for an additional 20 which is always up vs operatives 30.

-marauders dual wield contributes more to their attacks vs operatives which just increase based off stats (operatives knife isn't the primary contributor to melee attacks its tech power). Marauders get the weapon damage increase from 2 weapons plus the stat increases.

-marauders: buffed this patch, Operatives: i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say we'll be able to achieve the same damage we have now, but through talents and not base ability strength. Marauders are 5 percent better now, will get better with the patch, operatives dont change now to the patch=marauders are even better then 5% post patch.

 

why bring an operative dps for melee over marauder?

 

 

i wont say that operatives dont need a nerf, i dont have access to the information that bioware has. What i will say is that the way they present their argument for nerfing this class seems to historically be presented in a rather confounding manner. Which is only made worse when the complaints of the community seem largely unnoticed in terms of the classes issues for being improved.

I don't play a Marauder, so I can't say for certain but from what I gather they weren't "buffed" exactly, more that their two other trees were fixed to be viable. Annihilation was actually slightly nerfed, from what I gather.

 

In any case, I don't care about damage numbers. Yes, they are important. But I don't have those numbers and that is the easiest thing to fix if it is off.

 

What I care about is what a class offers - that is the point of this thread, even though it was derailed by a certain someone. It doesn't matter if Ops are "within 5% of a Marauder" if at the end of the day, Ops still need to slow jog its way back to bosses, make sure their positioning is correct for its abilities, and needs to be closely watched by healers because of a lack of defensive abilities while having to stay in melee range.

 

THIS is the issue that I am addressing, not whether or not we are competitive in numbers.

[CleverClothe]

Great, now we are having the Diagnostic Scan vs. Sorc Bubble discussion again. Why don't we go ahead and compare a VW Polo to a Monster Truck (both have 4 wheels) while we are at it? We could probably fill another five pages by doing that.

 

Yes, stop feeding the troll.

[Bohnur]

At least they are adjusting speeder prices. That was a major concern of mine. (insert sarcasm)

 

http://torwars.com/2012/03/01/zoeller-gets-in-character-with-swtor-economics/#comment-37403

[Amiable]

 

Also, if you think that healing Sorcerers will waste a GCD casting an untalented bubble (particularly with the Force Bending bug-fix) you know nothing about Sorc healing ...

 

 

Yes I do think good sorcs would in plenty of situations. If you can't think of the myriad of uses of even an untalented shield ability you must be a horribad player.