PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Darth_Grissom]

Voted no here.

 

34% for combat logs

 

66% against combat logs. Thank god I am not alone.

[Seregul]

please show me any indicators that the poll results are anything other then a random sampling. Show me how and where the poll is being stufed with votes.

 

We actually have over 2500 posts to this thread to help demonstrate who is paying attention to the question of the poll. It's clearly diverse. It's just that more people are voting no then yes, by a very wide margin.

 

He can't, nor can you confirm it is unbiased. Since this cannot be verified the poll results are meaningless as a serious measure of the community. Deal with it.

[Matte_Black]

Wouldn't the general discussion forum tend to generate the most random sample. It does not favor any particular playstyle, demographic or faction choice? An active subscription to the game is it's only filter as far as I know.

[DaxRendar]

Except the major point you are missing is even though it is open to everyone, it doesn't mean that the people who come here are open in any way about their thinking... Comparing this forum to a nation is just asinine, even though it is the official forums, there are other forums where other players from this game go I.E. sithwarrior forums. If you want a more accurate result go over there and post the poll and see how it is received there then compare the two.

 

I think you just successfully argued your opponent's point yet again

 

If any forum has a somewhat random and diverse population representative of the game's population as a whole - it's this one.

 

You really don't like the fact that the majority of the game's population disagrees with you, do you?

[Snakke]

I think you just successfully argued your opponent's point yet again

 

If any forum has a somewhat random and diverse population representative of the game's population as a whole - it's this one.

 

You really don't like the fact that the majority of the game's population disagrees with you, do you?

 

No, because a large portion of the community could use different forums other than these. So if you spread you poll around you would get a more accurate sample.

[Andryah]

He can't, nor can you confirm it is unbiased. Since this cannot be verified the poll results are meaningless as a serious measure of the community. Deal with it.

 

In polling, the margin of error accounts for any bias in a random poll. It's established methodology and practice in polling and has been validated to be true over decades of polling.

 

A random poll is effective if it has a sizable relevant demographic and the party conducting the poll does not select people through any mechanism other then random.

 

In the case of this poll, even though the OP pre-conditioned the poll thinking with his original post to be pro-public logging, I am satisfied that the polling submission do qualify as random.

 

For any poll to be statistically revelant (within it's margin of error, which is primarily driven by sample size, the bigger the sample the smaller the margin for error) it only has to be a random poll sampling of a relevant audience. A relevant audience in this case is SWTOR players, and random is exactly that, random (ie: no deliberate selection bias by the poll creator). The poll creator opened this poll to everyone, so there is no evidence of selection bias.

 

Now, about sample sizes. A sample size of 10 creates a very large margin for error (>50%). A sample size of 1000 creates a margin of error in polling of ~ 3%. This poll is roughly half that size so it's margin of error is ~ 6%. That said, I gave it a margin of error of 10% and assumed all margin error was against the majority and there is still a clear margin in favor of the majority in this poll. And yet, some here in the pro-public logging community stil want to insist that only a vote by 100% of all players counts.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Andryah

[genesiser]

1) Read my post right before your repost

 

2) Either include more examples or phrase the questions as some of our stellar "pro-meters" people have stated them. For example:

 

"OMG YUR SUCK A BADDY BAD!!1! I CANT BELEIV YUR ONLY DOIN 12K DSP!" while said person is (a) standing in fire and (b) doing 13.5K DPS in a fight that actually only requires 10K DPS meaning the group is well over the DPS threshold

 

So it's not so much that people will ask others that join their group to be able to do a minimum amount of dps, and it's not that people will say improve your dps or we kick you, it's the extreme cases, one as such you listed that the anti meter crowd doesn't want meters? Is it really because of the very few extreme cases of someone going crazy and being a total butt-head that you guys don't want them?

[DaxRendar]

No, because a large portion of the community could use different forums other than these. So if you spread you poll around you would get a more accurate sample.

 

If you have anything to back up that assumption (hit counts, posts per day, registered members, unique posters, etc) I'd love to see it.

 

Otherwise I feel very comfortable asserting that the General Topic of the Official Game Forums will offer the most diverse and well-represented cross-section of the playerbase.

 

Sithwarrior definitely trends more "hardcore" in content and focus, so by your own criteria it's hardly a more diverse sample of the community. If anything, by your request you are looking to inject bias into the results rather than increase accuracy.

[testszag]

PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

 

i vote no, thanks

[Snakke]

If you have anything to back up that assumption (hit counts, posts per day, registered members, unique posters, etc) I'd love to see it.

 

Otherwise I feel very comfortable asserting that the General Topic of the Official Game Forums will offer the most diverse and well-represented cross-section of the playerbase.

 

Sithwarrior definitely trends more "hardcore" in content and focus, so by your own criteria it's hardly a more diverse sample of the community. If anything, by your request you are looking to inject bias into the results rather than increase accuracy.

 

You can flip that same argument back at you saying, that the majority of the "hardcore" players use sith warrior rather than these forums leaving a vast majority of non hardcore gamers here making a very bias poll. If you can prove that you are right in the fact that a wide variety of people have came here and voted then I will take your argument serious.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Snakke

[Diet-Hutt]

Vote on whether to add combat logs?

 

I vote a big "no".

 

- DH

[Matte_Black]

No, because a large portion of the community could use different forums other than these. So if you spread you poll around you would get a more accurate sample.

 

You might get a larger sample size but, soliciting several forums but, I would not say a more random one. Nearly every other forum caters to a narrower sliver of the playerbase and generally-speaking, the deeper you dive into the smaller forums the more you'll see of the types of players who crave the inner workings of the game or canon minutiae.

[DaxRendar]

So it's not so much that people will ask others that join their group to be able to do a minimum amount of dps, and it's not that people will say improve your dps or we kick you, it's the extreme cases, one as such you listed that the anti meter crowd doesn't want meters? Is it really because of the very few extreme cases of someone going crazy and being a total butt-head that you guys don't want them?

 

1) It didn't look like you read my first post where I identified that your initial questions could be just as problematic.

 

2) If it were really only a "very few extreme cases" it really wouldn't be that much of an issue. That behavior and attitude (even with milder language) was far more common than many of us would like - hence our stance on it.

 

3) In some sense quite simply - YES. It's kinda like Kindergarten. BioWare (and the majority of posters in this thread) are saying "No, you can't have that shiny toy you really want because a few misbehaved kids have ruined the chance for everyone. Here, have this similar toy instead."

 

4) And finally, that last part of #3 is really important. People who are looking to use the data to legitimately improve their own gameplay, or are willing to find like-minded individuals to share and compare data with (for whatever purpose, including competing with or belittling each other) are in fact getting everything they need with Personal Parsable Combat Logs.

[Derekloffin]

 

For any poll to be statistically revelant (within it's margin of error, which is primarily driven by sample size, the bigger the sample the smaller the margin for error) it only has to be a random poll sampling of a relevant audience. A relevant audience in this case is SWTOR players, and random is exactly that, random (ie: no deliberate selection bias by the poll creator). The poll creator opened this poll to everyone, so there is no evidence of selection bias.

 

 

Actually, no, it isn't random. Random does not just mean no deliberate bias, but no sampling bias at all. Any voluntary poll automatically incurs some unavoidable biases immediately (willingness to participate, and ability to participate chief among them). Any forum poll also automatically incurs a selection bias, a severe one, of only polling forum goers. Doesn't mean you should outright disqualify it, but it isn't truly statistically random.

[Andryah]

Actually, no, it isn't random. Random does not just mean no deliberate bias, but no sampling bias at all. Any voluntary poll automatically incurs some unavoidable biases immediately (willingness to participate, and ability to participate chief among them). Any forum poll also automatically incurs a selection bias, a severe one, of only polling forum goers. Doesn't mean you should outright disqualify it, but it isn't truly statistically random.

 

Yeah, it is a random poll, in polling parlance. And every random poll has random bias in it.

 

AND, once again.... margin of error for the sample size accounts for "random bias" in a random polling.

[Ganelon]

In polling, the margin of error accounts for any bias in a random poll. It's established methodology and practice in polling and has been validated to be true over decades of polling.

 

Actually, the margin of error accounts for sampling error in a random poll. It has nothing to do with bias error.

 

A 5% margin of error at 95% confidence level means that if you were to repeat the same poll 100 times with random samples, 95 times out of 100 the result would fall within a +/-5% interval centered around the true result.

 

The poll creator opened this poll to everyone, so there is no evidence of selection bias.

 

Selection bias, namely by the creators of a given poll, is not the only kind of bias.

 

And yet, some here in the pro-public logging community stil want to insist that only a vote by 100% of all players counts.

 

First of all, the only person that said that was you. Second, even if I was not pro-public logging, as you say it, I'd still be pointing out that we can not draw any conclusions from this poll.

[Snakke]

Actually, the margin of error accounts for sampling error in a random poll. It has nothing to do with bias error.

 

A 5% margin of error at 95% confidence level means that if you were to repeat the same poll 100 times with random samples, 95 times out of 100 the result would fall within a +/-5% interval centered around the true result.

 

 

 

Selection bias, namely by the creators of a given poll, is not the only kind of bias.

 

 

 

First of all, the only person that said that was you. Second, even if I was not pro-public logging, as you say it, I'd still be pointing out that we can not draw any conclusions from this poll.

 

^ what he said

[Retzilla]

Actually, the margin of error accounts for sampling error in a random poll. It has nothing to do with bias error.

 

A 5% margin of error at 95% confidence level means that if you were to repeat the same poll 100 times with random samples, 95 times out of 100 the result would fall within a +/-5% interval centered around the true result.

 

 

 

Selection bias, namely by the creators of a given poll, is not the only kind of bias.

 

 

 

First of all, the only person that said that was you. Second, even if I was not pro-public logging, as you say it, I'd still be pointing out that we can not draw any conclusions from this poll.

 

its going to be a sad day when the posters completely ignore this post and regard it as babble

[Andryah]

Actually, the margin of error accounts for sampling error in a random poll. It has nothing to do with bias error.

 

In polling, margin of error accounts for all factors that can inject error. Because polling is by definition sampling, so all errors are sampling errors.

 

Stop trying so hard to refute the poll. If it was even remotely close between the two vote choices, I would agree with you. But it's so far apart even after applying margin of error against the majority vote as to be beyond arguing, unless you can demonstrate with some degree of credibility (not just blind speculation and accusation) the polling is not random.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Andryah

[Retzilla]

Actually, the margin of error accounts for sampling error in a random poll. It has nothing to do with bias error.

 

A 5% margin of error at 95% confidence level means that if you were to repeat the same poll 100 times with random samples, 95 times out of 100 the result would fall within a +/-5% interval centered around the true result.

 

 

 

Selection bias, namely by the creators of a given poll, is not the only kind of bias.

 

 

 

First of all, the only person that said that was you. Second, even if I was not pro-public logging, as you say it, I'd still be pointing out that we can not draw any conclusions from this poll.

 

In polling, margin of error accounts for all factors that can inject error. Because polling is by definition sampling, so all errors are sampling errors.

 

Stop trying so hard to refute the poll. If it was even remotely close between the two vote choices, I would agree with you. But it's so far apart even after applying margin of error against the majority vote as to be beyond arguing, unless you can demonstrate with some degree of credibility (not just blind speculation and accusation) the polling is not random.

 

 

 

he didnt try, he succeeded and i will refer to you where he did

 

Actually, the margin of error accounts for sampling error in a random poll. It has nothing to do with bias error.

 

A 5% margin of error at 95% confidence level means that if you were to repeat the same poll 100 times with random samples, 95 times out of 100 the result would fall within a +/-5% interval centered around the true result.

[Ganelon]

In polling, margin of error accounts for all factors that can inject error. Because polling is by definition sampling, so all errors are sampling errors.

 

Stop trying so hard to refute the poll. If it was even remotely close between the two vote choices, I would agree with you. But it's so far apart even after applying margin of error against the majority vote as to be beyond arguing, unless you can demonstrate with some degree of credibility (not just blind speculation and accusation) the polling is not random.

 

There are only two thing here that are beyond arguing.

 

First, that the margin of error does not account for bias. That is a fact, and one you can easily verify by reading any introductory text on statistics.

 

Second, the poll is biased. The participants are self-selected. That alone means that people with a strong opinion on the subject, towards one end or the other of the subject under polling, are much more likely to have answered. That alone is enough to prove the poll is biased.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Ganelon

[GalacticKegger]

he didnt try, he succeeded and i will refer to you where he did

Here's a mid January poll which asked the community to grade how important specific bug fixes and feature additions were to them. Each item was rated from 1 to 5: a score of 5 represents an absolute need, while a score of 1 represents non importance. Below are the results from the more than 1,100 responders, ranked top to bottom from highest priority to lowest prority.

 

TOP 10

1) 4.34 / 4.59 : Fix ability delay / abilities not firing off when pressed

2) 4.20 : On PvP servers, PvP bugs (que crashing you to char select, won matches not counting towards daily quests etc)

3) 4.16 : More rewarding endgame crafting

4) 4.11 / 4.14 : Flashpoint / Raid bugs (loot bugs, boss bugs etc)

5) 4.02 : Overall PvP bugs (que crashing you to char select, won matches not counting towards daily quests etc)

6) 4.00 : Customizable UI

7) 3.93 : Fix quest bugs (quests not updating etc)

8) 3.75 : More customization of armor/weapon graphics in game

9) 3.63 : More Warzones

10t) 3.53 : Adding a "two target system" (can heal a target and attack that targets target if using an offensive ability)

10t) 3.53 : Fix Lag & FPS

10t) 3.53 : More (rewarding and amount of) world PvP

 

THE REST

3.48 : More Raid content

3.45 : High resolution textures

3.41 : Less sharded/themepark feel in the game

3.32 : More Flashpoint content

3.30 : PvP class balance

3.20 : Combat log

3.16 : Mouseover healing

3.07 : Rated Warzones

3.03 : Biochem reusables/trinkets balance

2.92 : Dual speccing

2.83 : Macro use

2.79 : Fix faction inbalance

2.73 : More leveling content

2.63 : Addon use

2.49 : Server transfer

2.35 : Arena type of PvP

1.97 : Fix server queue times

1.64 : Switch faction

 

Huge thank you to Sorrowsongg for taking the initiative on this. Here is her original thread with all the raw results if interested: http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...172162&page=21

[Retzilla]

Here's a mid January poll which asked the community to grade how important specific bug fixes and feature additions were to them. Each item was rated from 1 to 5: a score of 5 represents an absolute need, while a score of 1 represents non importance. Below are the results from the more than 1,100 responders, ranked top to bottom from highest priority to lowest prority.

 

TOP 10

1) 4.34 / 4.59 : Fix ability delay / abilities not firing off when pressed

2) 4.20 : On PvP servers, PvP bugs (que crashing you to char select, won matches not counting towards daily quests etc)

3) 4.16 : More rewarding endgame crafting

4) 4.11 / 4.14 : Flashpoint / Raid bugs (loot bugs, boss bugs etc)

5) 4.02 : Overall PvP bugs (que crashing you to char select, won matches not counting towards daily quests etc)

6) 4.00 : Customizable UI

7) 3.93 : Fix quest bugs (quests not updating etc)

8) 3.75 : More customization of armor/weapon graphics in game

9) 3.63 : More Warzones

10t) 3.53 : Adding a "two target system" (can heal a target and attack that targets target if using an offensive ability)

10t) 3.53 : Fix Lag & FPS

10t) 3.53 : More (rewarding and amount of) world PvP

 

THE REST

3.48 : More Raid content

3.45 : High resolution textures

3.41 : Less sharded/themepark feel in the game

3.32 : More Flashpoint content

3.30 : PvP class balance

3.20 : Combat log

3.16 : Mouseover healing

3.07 : Rated Warzones

3.03 : Biochem reusables/trinkets balance

2.92 : Dual speccing

2.83 : Macro use

2.79 : Fix faction inbalance

2.73 : More leveling content

2.63 : Addon use

2.49 : Server transfer

2.35 : Arena type of PvP

1.97 : Fix server queue times

1.64 : Switch faction

 

Huge thank you to Sorrowsongg for taking the initiative on this. Here is her original thread with all the raw results if interested: http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...172162&page=21

 

i really have no idea what the purpose of this post is.

[GalacticKegger]

i really have no idea what the purpose of this post is.

Some will disagree with the results of this survey ... because they will disagree with anything that ill suits them. And that's okay with me - it's just a survey. An extensive one mind you, but merely a survey nonetheless.

 

This one had a sample size in excess of 1,100 and it was as unbiased as a forum-driven survey can be because there were numerous pages of questions each with multiple options. So answers could not be railed or steered, which I believe is on topic. The other point I wanted to illustrate was how far down the list a combat log, macros and addons were. In fact if you compare these results to what has been patched in to date, as well as what's coming in 1.2, it's quite possible this survey helped the game.

Edited March 15, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Andryah]

First, that the margin of error does not account for bias. That is a fact, and one you can easily verify by reading any introductory text on statistics.

 

Have a conversation with a professional poller. He/she will point out to you the error of your statement.

 

Polling relies on statistical methods as part of it's practice, but introductory statistics do not dictate polling processes. Polling processes are actually a field that has largly self-refined it's practices based on decades of data validations on poll results (because in many cases actual results can be compared to poll results in the field of polling).

 

Second, the poll is biased. The participants are self-selected. That alone means that people with a strong opinion on the subject, towards one end or the other of the subject under polling, are much more likely to have answered. That alone is enough to prove the poll is biased.

 

It does not prove bias in the voting. It only establishes that people with zero interest in the topic are likely to not bother voting (which I agree with, and they are outside the demographic for the poll). WHICH is actually good thing, since the OP did not give poll respondents an option of "undecided" or "don't care".

Edited March 15, 2012 by Andryah