Solving the Jedi's "rock-throwing" problem

[Phallyn]

I enjoy the simplicity of the Sage/Shadow tele throw. Being subtle is a larger plus than the flashy purple getting tossed around everywhere.

[Dyvim]

I enjoy the simplicity of the Sage/Shadow tele throw. Being subtle is a larger plus than the flashy purple getting tossed around everywhere.

 

lol, again, most people that like them seem to like chunk a clunker and pebblestorm for "off" reasons. Do you really want the signature skill of jedi consulars to be "unnoticeable" and "unremarkable", which is basically what you are describing with "subtle".

 

Kind of like the posters I have seen that like pebblestorm because they think it embarrases their enemy to die from pebbles. Again, NOT the hallmark of a great jedi skill animation.

 

People like chunk a clunker for the comic relief. Again, not the way to go, IMO...

[Birtram]

I think Project is quite cool, specially because the things you throw vary and it's quite logical and classic in the SW Universe, as a telekinetic way to attack enemies.

 

Lift things with the force and throw them around... Isn't that what Starkiller does the most in The Force Unleashed? And nobody complained about that! (although throwing fighters to people and stopping star destroyers in free fall is more impressive, I know).

 

Anyway! Those things we throw with Project hit in a quite hard way, too. I think it is a strong looking skill, which doesn't lose a bit when compared to the force lightning.

 

The skill that really bugs most of people is Telekinetic Throw... And I agree.

 

I mean, it's an effective skill which deals good DoT, and can hit real fast if you get the trigger going. But it's quite ridiculous, because you throw very small pebbles, and it doesn't even sound like it's a painful thing to receive in your face... Its sound reminds me more about a malfunctioning TV, or something like that, and that isn't very threatening.

 

I think they should make those pebbles bigger, and more "aggresive"... Because that DOES look way worse than a good, flashy force lightning.

 

Other alternative would be changing the animation to something "energy-based". Something that uses force energy waves or balls like with Telekinetic Wave or Disturbance... That would look better.

 

Anyway, we all know nothing's gonna change, so let's not freak out... The consular has some real cool skills. I enjoy the animations when I'm chaining skills in a good DPS flurry with my telekinetics sage.

 

 

Oh, and by the way... Being subtle is totally cooler than being as flashy as an inquisitor/assassin... Indeed. And it doesn't have to mean that you go totally unnoticed.

 

Remember that we are consulars, Jedi more focused in studying misteries and looking for the peaceful solution (well, maybe shadows are more aggresive). If you wanna hit people with an array of b4d4ss looking skills, roll a bounty hunter (which is quite cool, btw, I have a lv 26 powertech alt which I enjoy playing with).

Edited April 7, 2012 by Birtram

[Dyvim]

I think Project is quite cool, specially because the things you throw vary and it's quite logical and classic in the SW Universe, as a telekinetic way to attack enemies. ...

 

Only if you are a sith, or a darkside force user. In six movies we see jedi choke as much as they throw something at a target (and Yoda does it reflectively).

 

Jedi arent junk throwers. Jedi arent junk conjuerers, either. And jedi cant make rocks materialize up out of starship decks...or plant droid scrapyards magically at your feet.

 

THe animation is, in it totality, ridiculous. If would be ridiculous even if jedi were junk throwers. They arent.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Dyvim

[Birtram]

When I say "SW Universe" I'm talking about something MUCH wider than the movies.

 

I mean, I'm a hardcore Star Wars fan, I have read hundreds of comics and I read every regular series that is out right now; I have played a lot of SW videogames; read novels; wrote fan fiction, etc, etc, etc... I know what I'm talking about.

 

I know that it's a little bit awkward that you can put a rock out of a ship's floor... But throwing stuff to foes in a telekinetic manner is very natural for a Jedi... Believe it or not. Having a skill that throws ridiculous pebbles is a different matter, but project has nothing wrong with it.

 

Of course, things could be improved... But if you can't bear with throwing rocks, then roll an inquisitor... Or play Budokai Tenkaichi, pick Freezer and start throwing death beams all around the place.

 

 

Having TWO skills that throw stuff does not make anybody a "junk thrower".

Edited April 7, 2012 by Birtram

[Dyvim]

When I say "SW Universe" I'm talking about something MUCH wider than the movies.

 

I mean, I'm a hardcore Star Wars fan, I have read hundreds of comics and I read every regular series that is out right now; I have played a lot of SW videogames; read novels; wrote fan fiction, etc, etc, etc... I know what I'm talking about.

 

I know that it's a little bit awkward that you can put a rock out of a ship's floor... But throwing stuff to foes in a telekinetic manner is very natural for a Jedi... Believe it or not. Having a skill that throws ridiculous pebbles is a different matter, but project has nothing wrong with it.

 

Of course, things could be improved... But if you can't bear with throwing rocks, then roll an inquisitor... Or play Budokai Tenkaichi, pick Freezer and start throwing death beams all around the place.

 

 

Having TWO skills that throw stuff does not make anybody a "junk thrower".

 

Starkiller was trained as a Sith - Vader's Apprentice. Which makes perfect sense as Vader was the first Sith we ever saw throw junk, 30+ years ago. Sith are junk throwers if anyone is...not jedi. In six movies every sith throws junk. They throw junk more than they use any other ranged attack, including lightning and choke. Jedi use force push predominantly, which MAKES SENSE, since pushing someone away from you is inherently defensive, and has been classified as a neutral power for forever in the games and the lore.

 

I doubt you are more of a star wars fan than I am. When you have the two basic ranged abilities that are used in EVERY combat rotation and are impacted by 10+ Talents, YES THAT MAKES JEDI JUNK THROWERS. It really is so obvious it shouldnt need to be stated. Or "debris" throwers if you want to go by the tool tips. Jedi arent junk throwers. If anyone is going to throw junk, its the sith. Period. Not open to debate.

 

Jedi ranged skills should ALWAYS be based off of force push. And the force push concept, with the idea of shockwaves, pressure differentials, bomb blast-style effects, etc., provides MORE than enough material to create animations that are powerful looking and superior to anything on the sith side. Instead, we get rocks, junk, pebbles. Its so stupid it is laughable. If you know anything about the lore, or even read a wiki, much less watched a movie, that again is so obvious it shouldnt need to be stated.

 

If you want to play the fan/lore card, do better please.

 

Sure, jedi can throw things. They can choke. They can shoot yellow or green lightning. But starting with the movies, we KNOW what jedi typically do...and it is NONE OF THOSE THINGS. Going all the way back to ESB, we have the stark contrast of Yoda training Luke to levitate with telekinesis, then the darkside perversion of that power we see with vader junk tossing at Luke. Which has labeled junk throwing as darkside in the lore ever since then...starting in the FIRST 3d jedi game with force powers, df2:jk which is over 15 years old. Junk throwing, when included, has been classified as a darkside power and with good reason.

 

Project isnt just awkward...it is completely ridiculous. Stating there is nothing wrong with it is just fallacy or bllindness. Let's review what is wrong with it...

 

1) Breaks the mirror mechanic with damage delay

2) Breaks the suspension of disbelief mechanics with endless junk conjuring

3) Breaks the environment by conjuring laughingly inappropriate junk, like rocks in spaceships

4) Breaks the fundamentals of the lore. Jedi arent junk throwers. If ANYONE throws junk in the game, it should be Sith. This goes back in the lore and back to the VERY first 3d lucas game where you could wield a lightsaber and use force powers. Throwing junk was classified as a darkside skill then...and always has been, afaik...

Edited April 7, 2012 by Dyvim

[Birtram]

I see you've been throwing the same stuff during several pages of the thread...

You say that some things are not open to debate, and that's only because you think so. That leaves quite clear for me that I can't have a serious debate with you.

 

Of course, better animations could be made... Force push stuff would be nice (like the force wave on KOTOR), or energy-type solutions. But this is what we have, it's not as bad as you paint it, and people has the right to like it if they do... But you just keep being aggresive to those who don't find rock-throwing a reason to stand up in arms.

 

And again, I've nothing to prove about who is the biggest fan or "lore expert" here... That doesn't concern me. I just know that throwing stuff isn't a Sith thing at all. Jedi can and do use telekinetics as much as the Sith... Or more. Say whatever you want, but this is a fact.

 

If you really are such a huge fan and know so much about this universe, why do you keep holding onto the movies and a sole videogame as arguments? Can't you use any comic character or plot as an argument? Or don't you know that 80% of star wars lore is in comics right now? I'm not interested in proving myself as a SW expert, but you just use the same old argument over and over again... It's boring.

 

For intance, you could check master Jedi Fay. She didn't use a lightsaber and did a LOT of telekinetic stuff (and force push, of course). She shows up in number 53 of Star Wars - Republic, one of the best SW comic series ever. In that comic, she even used glass fragments as a debris rain, just like in telekinetic throw (something that, btw, I never saw a Sith use).

 

Or maybe you'd like to take a look at Tasha Ryo... A character in Dawn of the Jedi (the new series that shows us the roots of the Jedi order, thousands of years before the Republic is founded). She's another character who uses no weapons but her hands, and takes quite an advantage from telekinetics. Though she's not a Jedi, I know that... she's a Je'daii and she's quite far away from the Jedi order we're talking about. But she's a good example too.

 

 

I can think of more characters if you want, but it doesn't matter how much or how well I write... I can see what kind of answer I'll get from you. I'm in the community to share and have fun (just like in-game), so I wouldn't like to waste any more time in an argument like this.

 

But I'll just leave a couple clear points, like I see you like to do also:

 

 

1) There could be better animations (force push tricks would be nice, I give you that), but telekinetics are perfectly proper for a Jedi (whether you like it or not, I just know for myself that they are).

 

2) There's a lot of people who like these skills or at least do not worry so much about them looking worse than a force lightning. They have their right to like 'em. You have no right to aggresively disrespect other players' likes and opinions.

 

3) T. Throw and Project are main parts of a Jedi sage's attack chain. But you still have 5+ abilities which don't consist in "throwing junk" and help diversify the animations quite a bit. Disturbance is a good skill for setting triggers and waiting for cooldowns... A lot of people don't like to use it, but it's worth it.

 

 

 

PD: In your latest list of points, number 2, 3 and 4 are kind of the same one.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Birtram

[Knockerz]

I would really like it if BW were to get rid of the junk throwing abilities and make all abilities like disturbance, turbulence, and telekinetic wave. Thus, all the abilities would match the color of my white lightsaber just like my imp sorcerer purple lightsaber matches her abilities. Edited April 7, 2012 by Knockerz

[Dyvim]

I see you've been throwing the same stuff during several pages of the thread...

You say that some things are not open to debate, and that's only because you think so. That leaves quite clear for me that I can't have a serious debate with you.

 

Of course, better animations could be made... Force push stuff would be nice (like the force wave on KOTOR), or energy-type solutions. But this is what we have, it's not as bad as you paint it, and people has the right to like it if they do... But you just keep being aggresive to those who don't find rock-throwing a reason to stand up in arms.

 

And again, I've nothing to prove about who is the biggest fan or "lore expert" here... That doesn't concern me. I just know that throwing stuff isn't a Sith thing at all. Jedi can and do use telekinetics as much as the Sith... Or more. Say whatever you want, but this is a fact.

 

If you really are such a huge fan and know so much about this universe, why do you keep holding onto the movies and a sole videogame as arguments? Can't you use any comic character or plot as an argument? Or don't you know that 80% of star wars lore is in comics right now? I'm not interested in proving myself as a SW expert, but you just use the same old argument over and over again... It's boring.

 

For intance, you could check master Jedi Fay. She didn't use a lightsaber and did a LOT of telekinetic stuff (and force push, of course). She shows up in number 53 of Star Wars - Republic, one of the best SW comic series ever. In that comic, she even used glass fragments as a debris rain, just like in telekinetic throw (something that, btw, I never saw a Sith use).

 

Or maybe you'd like to take a look at Tasha Ryo... A character in Dawn of the Jedi (the new series that shows us the roots of the Jedi order, thousands of years before the Republic is founded). She's another character who uses no weapons but her hands, and takes quite an advantage from telekinetics. Though she's not a Jedi, I know that... she's a Je'daii and she's quite far away from the Jedi order we're talking about. But she's a good example too.

 

 

I can think of more characters if you want, but it doesn't matter how much or how well I write... I can see what kind of answer I'll get from you. I'm in the community to share and have fun (just like in-game), so I wouldn't like to waste any more time in an argument like this.

 

But I'll just leave a couple clear points, like I see you like to do also:

 

 

1) There could be better animations (force push tricks would be nice, I give you that), but telekinetics are perfectly proper for a Jedi (whether you like it or not, I just know for myself that they are).

 

2) There's a lot of people who like these skills or at least do not worry so much about them looking worse than a force lightning. They have their right to like 'em. You have no right to aggresively disrespect other players' likes and opinions.

 

3) T. Throw and Project are main parts of a Jedi sage's attack chain. But you still have 5+ abilities which don't consist in "throwing junk" and help diversify the animations quite a bit. Disturbance is a good skill for setting triggers and waiting for cooldowns... A lot of people don't like to use it, but it's worth it.

 

 

 

PD: In your latest list of points, number 2, 3 and 4 are kind of the same one.

 

They are all related because they are all problems with the same skill. Throwing junk is a specific application of telekinetics, and for jedi, as a BASIS of their skills, it is completely improper. Sith do it all the time, jedi not so much...I know it, the canon knows it, the wiki's know it, 6 movies know it, every jedi knight game through jedi academy knows it, and if you think about it, you'll probably figure it out too. If not, just watch ESB again. Maybe you can point out ONE time in 6 movies, with ALL the jedi training and philosophy we are exposed to where ANY jedi is trained to throw junk...lol. If you want to claim you are a star wars fanatic and a lore junky, then get it right, please.

 

To deny that project and throw effectively make jedi junk throwers in this game is laughable. They are the signature skills of consulars, just like lightning exemplifies Inqs in this game. Talk about being unreasonable.

 

Yes, you can find anything in the EU. Jawa jedi. Green sparks. You name it. Just like you can cite outrageous examples of force powers from the first clone wars series. Or force unleashed - just kind of skipped over my defeat of your starkiller statement...lol. But at the end of the day, jedi should have a certain look and feel, and it does NOT revolve around endless junk conjuring out of the ground like some earth shaman.

 

Point is, the movies are the uncontested basis of it all. They ARE the ultimate source of canon. And they clearly show us what sith do and what jedi do, with the most frequency. And junk throwing for jedi is not it. You caould make a case for sith junk throwing, though. NO ONE can honestly posit that jedi are rabid junk throwers, it is just lunacy. Im sorry if the basic facts from canon bore you, but its called consistency, which is the key to canon in the first place.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Dyvim

[Asheby]

I like the more understated casting animations of the Jedi Sage, and more important than personal preference - it is appropriate.

The Jedi Sage Consular is not flashy and would use the Force efficiently, and use their opponents underestimating them to their advantage. They would not create lightening out of the air, but use resources already available.

Whereas I could see the Sith Sorcerer Inquisitor adding a bit of flash and making a big show to impress and intimidate others.

It would be cool if the rocks were debri, ice, water or rocks as dictated by their surroundings.

[Birtram]

They are all related because they are all problems with the same skill. Throwing junk is a specific application of telekinetics, and for jedi, as a BASIS of their skills, it is completely improper. Sith do it all the time, jedi not so much...I know it, the canon knows it, the wiki's know it, 6 movies know it, every jedi knight game through jedi academy knows it, and if you think about it, you'll probably figure it out too. If not, just watch ESB again. Maybe you can point out ONE time in 6 movies, with ALL the jedi training and philosophy we are exposed to where ANY jedi is trained to throw junk...lol. If you want to claim you are a star wars fanatic and a lore junky, then get it right, please.

 

To deny that project and throw effectively make jedi junk throwers in this game is laughable. They are the signature skills of consulars, just like lightning exemplifies Inqs in this game. Talk about being unreasonable.

 

Yes, you can find anything in the EU. Jawa jedi. Green sparks. You name it. Just like you can cite outrageous examples of force powers from the first clone wars series. Or force unleashed - just kind of skipped over my defeat of your starkiller statement...lol. But at the end of the day, jedi should have a certain look and feel, and it does NOT revolve around endless junk conjuring out of the ground like some earth shaman.

 

Point is, the movies are the uncontested basis of it all. They ARE the ultimate source of canon. And they clearly show us what sith do and what jedi do, with the most frequency. And junk throwing for jedi is not it. You caould make a case for sith junk throwing, though. NO ONE can honestly posit that jedi are rabid junk throwers, it is just lunacy. Im sorry if the basic facts from canon bore you, but its called consistency, which is the key to canon in the first place.

 

Yeah, yeah... Keep raging, mate.

I'm done here.

[Dyvim]

Yeah, yeah... Keep raging, mate.

I'm done here.

 

Rage, no. Annoyance with the piss poor jedi implementation in the game, yes. You cant build the Sith side first, copy and paste it over to jedi, mix in some craptastic animations, and get anything more than junk, and in this case junk throwing.

 

I love how you bring up lore and then run from it. At least we agree on one thing:

 

 

...Of course, better animations could be made... Force push stuff would be nice (like the force wave on KOTOR), or energy-type solutions...

 

 

Cheers.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Dyvim