Ghostcrawler offers some food for thought....

[Tarka]

Just gonna support Tarka on the OP. It's spot on, and if you give Blizzard credit for anything it's always looking at themselves critically, and usually hitting the nail on the head with what to tweak.

 

Blizzard has really perfected many of the things in the genre, and while BioWare holds WoW in high regard, it strikes me as odd that more of the important lessons learned didn't seem to carry.

 

Agreed. No matter who it is, I always like to give a bit of credit to those in the MMO industry who have the objectivity to look back on what they did right, and what they did wrong and show honesty in their answers. And not just use any press limelight as a way to promote their next product. Granted "Ghostcrawler" does indeed mention Pandaria, but to me he mentions it partly to give context to the issues being discussed.

 

Silirrion from AOC is another person who I admire somewhat, even though AOC may not be doing as well as, let's say, WoW. He nevertheless offers certain thought provoking insights.

 

Unfortunately, not only Blizzard, but the MMO industry as a whole has had to learn some harsh lessons over the last 8 years. Some were of Blizzard's own making, whilst others are perhaps the fault of the individuals who tried a little *too hard* to emulate WoW in all the wrong ways and for the wrong reasons.

 

Is Bioware going to follow suit, believing that to follow the "WoW formula" and ONLY that forumla is the only way to success?

Edited March 13, 2012 by Tarka

[Moncrief]

I've always thought they should've overlapped the questing zones alot more. I've got 3 characters 40+ and I can count on one hand in every single 25+ planet how many people from the opposing faction I've seen. I saw my first on Belsavis last night and I'm almost done with the zone. I encountered 2 on Tatooine, 1 on Taris, etc.

 

I always liked having to watch your behind while questing. Vanilla Ashenvale was glorious IMO. The cycle of getting a main to gank the ganker that got ganked was so fun.

 

I agree here too! We need opposing faction overlap! Even if you don't PvP, more people wandering around is good.

[Tarka]

I agree here too! We need opposing faction overlap! Even if you don't PvP, more people wandering around is good.

 

I agree completely with this. When I saw the "opposite" faction in WoW, it invoked a few different emotions in me. I became wary of them, maybe a little nervous.

 

THAT's what MMO's should do: invoke emotions in the player to make them feel like they are INSIDE a virtual gameworld. And not just passing through a lifeless area on some kind of "movie studio tour".

 

It baffles me why bioware thought that they had to separate the two factions as much as they did. Even to the extreme of not allowing them on the same planet at the same level. That's just plain....weird.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Tarka

[Kelsion]

one of the very first things I thought when I encountered the

Revanite Faction on Drummond Kass

was OH SWEET! I really thought there would be different Orders within the Sith and Jedi like the Templars, and get something like faction or rep points which would unlock gear/titles and while that particular story line did progress over several planets, it just sort of stopped and didn't really go anywhere or give you anything above and beyond what a normal questline would have given you.

 

I think adding things like that would definitely expand the endgame and help with immersion as well, make you feel more connected to the world.

 

While I do agree with this post on principle, I never want to have to grind faction rep again. At last not like we had to do it in WOW. Grinding to Battle Master is enough as it is. Maybe we could choose which "order" to serve and receive different gear, weapons, comp customizations, etc ... Maybe if you join the Green Jedi on Corellia you get gear that looks like theirs (modable of coarse).

[Tarka]

While I do agree with this post on principle, I never want to have to grind faction rep again. At last not like we had to do it in WOW. Grinding to Battle Master is enough as it is. Maybe we could choose which "order" to serve and receive different gear, weapons, comp customizations, etc ... Maybe if you join the Green Jedi on Corellia you get gear that looks like theirs (modable of coarse).

 

I've always believed that the key to an MMO's success is to offer variety and options to the players and let THEM decide on what they want to do and how they do it (to some degree).

 

For instance, multiple NPC based factions. Each with their own unique "design" of gear and items. Each of which is covetted. There could be unique looking mounts (both speeders and animal type). There could be unique "pets" for those who like that kind of thing.

 

Above all else, there could be good incentives to get involved in the faction including short, medium and long term goals. WoW did this in the Lich King expansion.

There were even NPC faction "tabards" that players could wear and thus get reputation WITHOUT the need to grind "dailies".

 

Of course, there will always BE some that consider faction interactions as nothing more than a "grind". But it's how those activities are presented that's what matters.

[Tarka]

Deathwing is like as old as the series.

 

Definitely in WC2; possibly in the original, though it's been so long I can't remember.

 

I'll admit that I didn't play WC1 and 2 that much. So the dragons may have been present in those games too. However, I think the original point still stands: players possibly can't "relate" to the Deathwing character as much as, say, Arthas in WoW or even Revan.

 

Anyhoo, let's not dwell too much on a specific character in WoW

Edited March 13, 2012 by Tarka

[CJAShadow]

One of the major failings is that exploration is lost because people have a GPS constantly telling them where to go. Have fun encounters or rare treasures in places away from the safe road. Datacrons are a good example of this, but there needs to be more variety in these rewards as well.

 

One of my favorite things that I have done in SWTOR was as a Smuggler I went to the Jedi Temple on Corusant to get the Datacron while still at a low level. On my way to it I stumble upon a Sith Apprentice that is one level above me. Quickly I set up to fight him just to only get his life down half way before I die. After going to do a couple other Heroics, I came back with a couple party members and had a random epic fight to kill the Sith and claim the Datacron.

 

Others may not find it fun to deal with trial and error in exploration, I think its the best part of these games.

 

-There should be more of these unique mobs in the game that players can't kill at the level they might first encounter them. Either the player has to come back to kill it (offer unique loot) or bring a group along.

 

- There should be more hidden treasure chests with loot in locations away from the beaten path to reward exploration. These treasure chests could carry Mods or Orange gear. Orange gear doesnt necessarily make a player stats go up, but it does make them look more unique.

 

- Just like with Datacrons, Have relics scattered throughout areas! I was hoping I would find a few on Taris when I was helping someone smuggle relics offworld! *** I wanted my own relics! Even if they only give tiny stat increases or let you use a weak augment, let us find them!

 

- Oh and have more of these areas with unique monsters have to do with Star Wars Lore. Fighting the 5th crime boss in an area of crime bosses is really boring. Have us fight NPCs that are unique like "Lost Jedi", "Disgraced Sith", or "Republic Spy".

[Horacio]

There is a 'Pandora's Box" like effect with many of the convienence and short cut features. Once you offer them, they become the 'new normal', what a significant segment of the player base expects as standard features. While the elder, perhaps, more thoughtful and mature player would like to have alot of real estate to explore, there are others who would get bored by it, never access it, never visit those areas that take time and resources to produce.

 

Game developers are trapped and its a circular problem. They need to concentrate on features and systems the most people will enjoy often at the expense of the things a few people (like me, I suppose) will REALLY like.

 

Wow changed the paradigm....a massive shift, really. There are certainly players who love their avatar, really get into the game and behind their character and immerse themselves in the environment. But there are more paying customers who want what they want and want it NOW. Bright lights, being showered with 'epic loots' on the fast track (of course, so they can power level 2 months into a game's launch and then ***** because they are bored)

 

Its damn hard to create a game for someone who plays 30 hours a week and not leave the 5 hour a week player totally in the dust. So many people fail to understand that and when the game doesn't cater to exactly wherever they are on that scale, cry bloody murder that BW hates them, hates their class, their skill spec, their playstyle, the region they live in and everything else.

 

The evolution of console gaming has also had a real impact. The drift away from community by using tools like LFG/LFR and the ability to over gear and solo content has erased some of the appeal MMOs had over console games.

 

Was it the gradual changes in Wow or could it partially be traced back to the game shattering NGE in Galaxies?

 

Amidst social phenomena like MMO gaming, people are much like herd animals. You get sucked in and adjust your play style to that of the rest of the population even if just a little bit and gradually. And this is where they are.

 

Personally, I think SWTOR is fantastic. It has its flaws but what doesn't? And yes, it borrowed HEAVILY from Wow in terms of how the game operates.

 

There are lessons to be learned from Wow both for us as players and EA/BW as the developers. Ultimately, any major statement out of Blizzard effects SWTOR. This insight is important.

[Tarka]

In general I feel the sheer number of planets is what TOR got wrong. it really does hinder exploration and the whole "running in to others doing stuff" idea Ghostcrawler mentioned. I think they would have been better off with two or so much larger planets. Making the main high-level hangout (Fleet) completely separated hinders this more. It is my one big gripe. Crash the fleets and make Coruscant and Dromund Kass the two main cities. Or, similar to WoW, make ultiple main cities. Perhaps, instead of racial affiliation, they could be class affiliated - Jedi Temple, Republic HQ, Imperial Intelligence, etc..

 

The number of small, disjointed planets is a design that is unfortunately not changeable. So, axe the fleets and get people on the ground!

 

Unfortunately the Star Wars IP is both a strength, and a weakness in itself. However, you may be right that had the leveling experience been focused on a smaller number of planets, then that may have strengthened the feeling of seeing more people together. And that may have given Bioware just cause and reason to expand more on the landmasses, thus giving more chance to explore more.

 

I do agree about the "fleet" though. I've never understood WHY they became social hubs, when both factions are supposed to have their own main planets.

 

Perhaps what you suggest is a way of dealing with that issue?

 

Like you say, perhaps there should be an "event" in which the "fleets" are destroyed and thus the planets become "hubs" may create a bit better feeling in the game?

 

Perhaps both DK and Coruscant can be "expanded" to offer additional routes for leveling rather than HAVING to go "off world" all the time?

[Rasstavad]

the devs could use this as an advantage and steal more of WoW players

 

You don't want more of me. I think this game is Hello Kitty Island in space and I miss the complexity and skill ceilings you found in WoW. I'm not as rabid as some others that are dissapointed in this game - but I'm not happy with its current incarnation.

 

However, I'm still willing to give it a few more months and a chance to redeem itself. Otherwise, I feel this game is a great stepping stone for those who are entering their first foray into MMO's or who are just not competitive and need a "Mommy and Daddy" figure to protect them from the evil "hard-cores".... but that is not what I want or need and I find it more than vaguely irritating that BW seems to feel they need to "protect" me.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Rasstavad

[Tarka]

One of the major failings is that exploration is lost because people have a GPS constantly telling them where to go. Have fun encounters or rare treasures in places away from the safe road. Datacrons are a good example of this, but there needs to be more variety in these rewards as well.

 

One of my favorite things that I have done in SWTOR was as a Smuggler I went to the Jedi Temple on Corusant to get the Datacron while still at a low level. On my way to it I stumble upon a Sith Apprentice that is one level above me. Quickly I set up to fight him just to only get his life down half way before I die. After going to do a couple other Heroics, I came back with a couple party members and had a random epic fight to kill the Sith and claim the Datacron.

 

I must admit, I was disappointed with the involvement of the "old" jedi temple. I expected it to be quite a focal point of progression given that one of the FMV movies for the game focused on it.

 

Others may not find it fun to deal with trial and error in exploration, I think its the best part of these games.

 

-There should be more of these unique mobs in the game that players can't kill at the level they might first encounter them. Either the player has to come back to kill it (offer unique loot) or bring a group along.

 

Agreed. You have touched on another way to add variance on planets: different difficulties and types of mobs and random spawns of "rare" mobs. There doesn't have to be just "standard" mobs of a particular level. There could be mobs of a wide range of levels on a planet. With reasons to want to get past them of course

 

- There should be more hidden treasure chests with loot in locations away from the beaten path to reward exploration. These treasure chests could carry Mods or Orange gear. Orange gear doesnt necessarily make a player stats go up, but it does make them look more unique.

 

That sounds a lot like the concept of "cairns" (basically a type of loot box) in Rift in which the player gets to open each just once and you get a nice reward from them. And they aren't all easy to find or get to.

 

The Datacrons concept is a good one. But one that is perhaps under-utilised at the moment. New additions don't have to be stat increases either.

 

- Just like with Datacrons, Have relics scattered throughout areas! I was hoping I would find a few on Taris when I was helping someone smuggle relics offworld! *** I wanted my own relics! Even if they only give tiny stat increases or let you use a weak augment, let us find them!

 

- Oh and have more of these areas with unique monsters have to do with Star Wars Lore. Fighting the 5th crime boss in an area of crime bosses is really boring. Have us fight NPCs that are unique like "Lost Jedi", "Disgraced Sith", or "Republic Spy".

 

Variance in loot, even loot that is specific to areas or planets can help add variance.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Tarka

[Sithchampx]

Well I totally agree with the lack of exploration, and the lack of size of the world. You fly to a big planet and you end up in a small little area that takes a couple minutes to cross.

 

Maybe they could actually engineer a planet like "Azeroth" with many non instanced zones you can travel across, with an underwater world you can submerge into off the coasts around the zones such as the zone jar jar binks entered in the movie.

 

Planets need to have more of a planetary feeling.

[Tarka]

Well I totally agree with the lack of exploration, and the lack of size of the world. You fly to a big planet and you end up in a small little area that takes a couple minutes to cross.

 

Maybe they could actually engineer a planet like "Azeroth" with many non instanced zones you can travel across, with an underwater world you can submerge into off the coasts around the zones such as the zone jar jar binks entered in the movie.

 

Planets need to have more of a planetary feeling.

 

This is part of the problem with Star Wars. You have specific planets with specific "climates" and that's it. Probably because there has been little reason for them to different wildly before now. For instance, perhaps George Lucas didn't originally envision an entire planet that is a desert but in fact one with different climates? But over time it was just easier to think of it as one big dust ball.

 

However, given the sheer number of planets in Star Wars, surely there must be some with a variety of climates.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Tarka

[Elyx]

Gratz on your post OP. I've always enjoyed GC's insight. He was a rare breed.

 

But I also find many of their insights failry interesting, as it seems that after running different molds, they are falling back on many ideas that they had in the older game, that they eschewed in Wrath and Cat.

 

An example is shoehorning people into areas. by creating avenues for raiders to more easily get to raids, by creating raid environments that allowed them to isolate themselves from the rest of the world detracted from much of the enjoyment of the world, turning the game into a slot machine for tokens.

 

yet, at the same time, they made many of those choices specificaly to try to take much of the "tedium' out of the process. the idea was to get the player to what they wanted without things they didn't want in the way.

 

A great example of this is the RDF tool. designed to streamline instances and grouping, it's net effect was that it took away any need to actually see or go to areas!

 

I remember running with people in RDF that wouldn't know how to get back to the instance when we wiped. I'd ask them if they'd ever done the run before, and they're comment would be along the lines of "a half dozen times or so. bet never been to the actual instance before"....it usually left me speecheless.

 

It's these kinds of changes that have allowed Blizz to figuratively "shoot themselves in the foot". So it's humorously ironic to me that they are now realizing that in much of this "improvement' process, they have lost many of the richness of what made MMO's so attractive to those who played them.

 

they lost the forest for the trees. While i hope that Bio learns from the mistakes of WoW, I think it's good to remember that yesterdays "Mistakes" can easily turn out to be todays "improvements". and vice versa of course.

[Tarka]

Gratz on your post OP. I've always enjoyed GC's insight. He was a rare breed.

 

But I also find many of their insights failry interesting, as it seems that after running different molds, they are falling back on many ideas that they had in the older game, that they eschewed in Wrath and Cat.

 

An example is shoehorning people into areas. by creating avenues for raiders to more easily get to raids, by creating raid environments that allowed them to isolate themselves from the rest of the world detracted from much of the enjoyment of the world, turning the game into a slot machine for tokens.

 

yet, at the same time, they made many of those choices specificaly to try to take much of the "tedium' out of the process. the idea was to get the player to what they wanted without things they didn't want in the way.

 

Agreed. I think their intentions were honourable. But by "removing the tedium" as some call it, they are effectively removing part of what it is to be an MMO.

 

Thus, when all these "little inconveniences" are removed, the "formula" becomes distilled down to portalling everywhere, doing linear quest chains and then portalling elsewhere to do others.

 

Whilst some could refer to that process as "dumbing down" the game, I prefer to use the phrase "removal of sophistication and depth".

 

A great example of this is the RDF tool. designed to streamline instances and grouping, it's net effect was that it took away any need to actually see or go to areas!

 

I remember running with people in RDF that wouldn't know how to get back to the instance when we wiped. I'd ask them if they'd ever done the run before, and they're comment would be along the lines of "a half dozen times or so. bet never been to the actual instance before"....it usually left me speecheless.

 

It's these kinds of changes that have allowed Blizz to figuratively "shoot themselves in the foot". So it's humorously ironic to me that they are now realizing that in much of this "improvement' process, they have lost many of the richness of what made MMO's so attractive to those who played them.

 

they lost the forest for the trees. While i hope that Bio learns from the mistakes of WoW, I think it's good to remember that yesterdays "Mistakes" can easily turn out to be todays "improvements". and vice versa of course.

 

Well, I suppose it's better to realise mistakes sometime, than to not realise them at all and perpetually believe that they did nothing wrong. That's why I give them a little measure of credit at least

 

Right now though, I'm just not entirely sure that Bioware are prepared to learn from the mistakes of the past. Whether they were made by Blizzard or anyone else for that matter. I'm just not sure that Bioware are prepared to accept that some of their concepts may have looked good on paper, but not in reality.

 

But I suppose time will tell.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Tarka

[Kindara]

Firstly, I would like to take this opportunity to express my thanks to all who have responded so far. You have all responded in a mature and polite fashion. I was actually expecting a lot of flaming from the "anti-wow" brigade. And I am happy to see that I was wrong so far.

 

Now, as for the replies themselves, I can appreciate a situation whereby one person may like to explore, whilst another may look at a game like WoW and ask, "What's the point? It's boring!" But that touches on a very important topic concerning MMO's: each player has different needs and requirements. A product that can offer activities that cater to such needs, stands a better chance at succeeding than one that doesn't. Now granted, one could argue that what was actually explorable in WoW perhaps wasn't exactly exciting. But that would be missing the point: If you could see a part of the landmass, then you could explore it.

 

Coming to the point about the explorable areas in WoW being subjectively "boring", well, other games have actually taken measures to add additional incentives for people to seek out those little "nooks and crannies" in the gameworld. For instance, Rift has "cairns" (basically one-time-use-only lootboxes), SWTOR has its' "Datacrons". I personally think the Datacron idea is inspired and hope to see more incentives like that appearing in the game. But first, we need interesting land mass to explore.

 

As others have pointed out, one of the big differences between WoW and SWTOR is the fact that more landmass in SWTOR is split away from the others purely because of the nature of those landmasses: they are planets, instead of just parts of one bigger mass. But that's not necessarily a "flaw" per say. It's just a different design. Adding more "mass" to the existing planets and giving players more reasons to stay together on those landmasses could possibly help.

 

 

 

Anyhow, what I see Ghostcrawler talking about (and I agree with the sentiment, even it it may be just Ghostcrawler telling people what they want to hear) is empowering players with a certain degree of freedom, and opportunities to "craft" their own personal and unique experiences. Things that THEY really want to do. Because when a product can offer that, then that gives the player more reason to stay subscribed.

 

But just giving players a set of quests / missions and a choice as to whether or not to do them isn't enough. That's not true "choice". I'm not saying that's precisely what happens in SWTOR, but nevertheless the point still stands.

 

Finally, again I'd like to thank you guys and girls for the civilised discussion. I hope to see it continue

 

No offense but WoW doesn't really give choice either infact its notorious for taking away choice. Look at the upcoming class changes for Class Trees. Its completely removing choice just a fake version of choice to make it easy to choose and not mess up. There's 1 way to level in WoW and thats fast since none of the content that leads up to end game is important at all, you can skip every single bit of it by simply doing dungeons, pvp, and a smattering of quests if you want some money. Its pretty much the same way in SWTOR you dont have to do the story content or even many of the regular quests. You could easily create your character get yourself out of the starting area and sit in a cantina then go out and farm mobs just like WoW. You could progress your story and level until you get your ship then just do ship missions. You could go and level through PVP plenty have done this. You could just do Flash Points all day and level.

 

WoW has farm, pvp, dungeons, or quests which have no meaning at all to level.

SWTOR has farm, pvp, ship missions, flash points, quests that have no meaning and a massive quest chain that does have meaning.

 

Yes travel can be inconvient but we're not traveling between continents we're traveling across galaxies and planets. There is no way to just seemlessly go from planet to planet. The areas sometimes seem small but are actually really big especially if your attempting to find datacrons. WoW offers nothing like datacrons at all unless you count its new Pokemon inspired mini game.

 

Honestly to me WoW has some interesting things since Cata as far as bringing the world to life but it suffers like SWTOR does once you complete an area or our level it there's no reason to stick around so things seem large and fairly quiet at times. Atleast the journey in SWTOR for me is far more pleasant and doesn't make me want to murder a bunch of people in frustration where as WoW does.

 

The type of people WoW caters to and is fixing to cater are just not well the catagories I fall into. I never liked the game much int he first place it sort of takes the RPG out of it and is just an MMO.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Kindara

[Kylsix]

I think Ghostcrawler hit the nail on the head:

1. Get players out into the world. We don’t want to totally eliminate convenience, so it’s fine to queue for some features from capital cities, but we also want players to see other players out in the world, questing, trying world bosses, engaging in PvP, and just travelling from place to place.

Despite what I read earlier in the thread, WoW had plenty of exploration, especially in vanilla and BC. SWOTOR literally has no exploration. I made it a point to go out of my way to explore, but every inch of the incredibly small zones is used by quests. Certain planets like Hoth have a huge wasteland of unused space, so I went over there, and much to be expected, the only thing I found was what I was looking for, the robot to kill for a datacron. There is no sense of wonder or achievement or exploration in SWOTOR.

2. Give players plenty to do. It’s a sad feeling, and a real failure on our part, whenever someone says “I want to play WoW this evening, but I just don’t have anything to do.”

Too many times I have logged into both WoW and SWOTOR, and immediately logged back out. I have gear, and my raid/operations, so what do I do now? Level an alt? I don't really want to, I already have one or two alts at 50. PvP? Frankly, I don't have the patience for it and I don't really find it fun. MMO's have a fundamental flaw in that they are tirelessly repetitive. Blizzard answered this with achievements, collecting pets, collecting mounts, and other tidbits of unimportant "fluff". That kept us busy for a while, but really, it wasn't enough and really was just an excuse to play WoW over something else, SWOTOR doesn't even have that. What Bioware could have done with space combat, and the ships themselves, is a huge untapped source of replay value. Giving players smaller fighters that dock on the primary ships. Letting people upgrade and customize both the bigger ships and smaller fighters would add hours upon hours. Put in a mechanic to allow people to collect items to decorate their ships. Another huge untapped resource is companions. Once you hit 50, they're relatively worthless, and only serve to collect my hand me down gear.

3. Appeal to a broad audience. I’m always surprised by the number of players who want the game to be easier and the equal number who want the game to be harder...

You do need to 100% appeal to a broad audience. Everything in me wants to say that shouldn't be the case, that I want to play the game that I want, but that's just not reasonable from a business perspective. What needs to be done is to find a better way to integrate everything. WoW and SWOTOR both cater very heavily to the casual player. WoW does this better with more fluff and silly stuff to do. SWOTOR only has alts, and that turns into "Spacebar through everything so I can level" because there is truly nothing new to see while leveling a new class, and the class story has absolutely no effect in the grand scheme of things.

 

The MMO culture, the people who play the games, have changed. The old culture was the stereotypical "nerd in mom's basement" to everything from the Xbox kid to mature working adults. All this is in the anonymous 4Chan/Reddit internet, where anonymous douchebagery runs rampant, and it's the culture that truly ruined MMOs, in my opinion, and that will never be fixed.

[Tarka]

No offense but WoW doesn't really give choice either infact its notorious for taking away choice. Look at the upcoming class changes for Class Trees. Its completely removing choice just a fake version of choice to make it easy to choose and not mess up. There's 1 way to level in WoW and thats fast since none of the content that leads up to end game is important at all, you can skip every single bit of it by simply doing dungeons, pvp, and a smattering of quests if you want some money. Its pretty much the same way in SWTOR you dont have to do the story content or even many of the regular quests. You could easily create your character get yourself out of the starting area and sit in a cantina then go out and farm mobs just like WoW. You could progress your story and level until you get your ship then just do ship missions. You could go and level through PVP plenty have done this. You could just do Flash Points all day and level.

 

WoW has farm, pvp, dungeons, or quests which have no meaning at all to level.

SWTOR has farm, pvp, ship missions, flash points, quests that have no meaning and a massive quest chain that does have meaning.

 

Yes travel can be inconvient but we're not traveling between continents we're traveling across galaxies and planets.

 

Oh don't get me wrong, WoW is hardly the "poster child" for perfection in MMO design. Far from it in fact. But nevertheless, WoW's design does offer things to the player that the current state of SWTOR doesn't fulfill that well. Such as the possibility to explore.

 

It's all about perception. And the perception is to some that the current state of SWTOR is lacking in certain areas which WoW had from the start. However, there are also certain issues which are highlighted by GC in the OP which SWTOR also has.

[Kindara]

I think Ghostcrawler hit the nail on the head:

 

Despite what I read earlier in the thread, WoW had plenty of exploration, especially in vanilla and BC. SWOTOR literally has no exploration. I made it a point to go out of my way to explore, but every inch of the incredibly small zones is used by quests. Certain planets like Hoth have a huge wasteland of unused space, so I went over there, and much to be expected, the only thing I found was what I was looking for, the robot to kill for a datacron. There is no sense of wonder or achievement or exploration in SWOTOR.

 

Too many times I have logged into both WoW and SWOTOR, and immediately logged back out. I have gear, and my raid/operations, so what do I do now? Level an alt? I don't really want to, I already have one or two alts at 50. PvP? Frankly, I don't have the patience for it and I don't really find it fun. MMO's have a fundamental flaw in that they are tirelessly repetitive. Blizzard answered this with achievements, collecting pets, collecting mounts, and other tidbits of unimportant "fluff". That kept us busy for a while, but really, it wasn't enough and really was just an excuse to play WoW over something else, SWOTOR doesn't even have that. What Bioware could have done with space combat, and the ships themselves, is a huge untapped source of replay value. Giving players smaller fighters that dock on the primary ships. Letting people upgrade and customize both the bigger ships and smaller fighters would add hours upon hours. Put in a mechanic to allow people to collect items to decorate their ships. Another huge untapped resource is companions. Once you hit 50, they're relatively worthless, and only serve to collect my hand me down gear.

 

You do need to 100% appeal to a broad audience. Everything in me wants to say that shouldn't be the case, that I want to play the game that I want, but that's just not reasonable from a business perspective. What needs to be done is to find a better way to integrate everything. WoW and SWOTOR both cater very heavily to the casual player. WoW does this better with more fluff and silly stuff to do. SWOTOR only has alts, and that turns into "Spacebar through everything so I can level" because there is truly nothing new to see while leveling a new class, and the class story has absolutely no effect in the grand scheme of things.

 

The MMO culture, the people who play the games, have changed. The old culture was the stereotypical "nerd in mom's basement" to everything from the Xbox kid to mature working adults. All this is in the anonymous 4Chan/Reddit internet, where anonymous douchebagery runs rampant, and it's the culture that truly ruined MMOs, in my opinion, and that will never be fixed.

 

All that fluff stuff didn't come until what recently? Really really recently. Kinda hard to have a game like SWTOR that has SO much stuff already and compare it to a game thats had time to ADD tons more stuff. Who's to say it won't add some more fluff? Oh wait it is..with the Legacy system. No offens epeople comparing the 2 games all the time irk me off. If you compare original wow to swtor ... SWTOR is superior. Comparing SWTOR to current wow...they're kinda which do you prefer.

[Tarka]

I think Ghostcrawler hit the nail on the head:

 

Despite what I read earlier in the thread, WoW had plenty of exploration, especially in vanilla and BC. SWOTOR literally has no exploration. I made it a point to go out of my way to explore, but every inch of the incredibly small zones is used by quests. Certain planets like Hoth have a huge wasteland of unused space, so I went over there, and much to be expected, the only thing I found was what I was looking for, the robot to kill for a datacron. There is no sense of wonder or achievement or exploration in SWOTOR.

 

Too many times I have logged into both WoW and SWOTOR, and immediately logged back out. I have gear, and my raid/operations, so what do I do now? Level an alt? I don't really want to, I already have one or two alts at 50. PvP? Frankly, I don't have the patience for it and I don't really find it fun. MMO's have a fundamental flaw in that they are tirelessly repetitive. Blizzard answered this with achievements, collecting pets, collecting mounts, and other tidbits of unimportant "fluff". That kept us busy for a while, but really, it wasn't enough and really was just an excuse to play WoW over something else, SWOTOR doesn't even have that. What Bioware could have done with space combat, and the ships themselves, is a huge untapped source of replay value. Giving players smaller fighters that dock on the primary ships. Letting people upgrade and customize both the bigger ships and smaller fighters would add hours upon hours. Put in a mechanic to allow people to collect items to decorate their ships. Another huge untapped resource is companions. Once you hit 50, they're relatively worthless, and only serve to collect my hand me down gear.

 

You do need to 100% appeal to a broad audience. Everything in me wants to say that shouldn't be the case, that I want to play the game that I want, but that's just not reasonable from a business perspective. What needs to be done is to find a better way to integrate everything. WoW and SWOTOR both cater very heavily to the casual player. WoW does this better with more fluff and silly stuff to do. SWOTOR only has alts, and that turns into "Spacebar through everything so I can level" because there is truly nothing new to see while leveling a new class, and the class story has absolutely no effect in the grand scheme of things.

 

The MMO culture, the people who play the games, have changed. The old culture was the stereotypical "nerd in mom's basement" to everything from the Xbox kid to mature working adults. All this is in the anonymous 4Chan/Reddit internet, where anonymous douchebagery runs rampant, and it's the culture that truly ruined MMOs, in my opinion, and that will never be fixed.

 

I completely agree with you. Right now, I see SWTOR as in a form of a "bare bones" state. Aside from the obligatory rolling alts, warzones, FP's and operations, there isn't much incentive to continually log in.

[Kindara]

Oh don't get me wrong, WoW is hardly the "poster child" for perfection in MMO design. Far from it in fact. But nevertheless, WoW's design does offer things to the player that the current state of SWTOR doesn't fulfill that well. Such as the possibility to explore.

 

It's all about perception. And the perception is to some that the current state of SWTOR is lacking in certain areas which WoW had from the start. However, there are also certain issues which are highlighted by GC in the OP which SWTOR also has.

 

I found WoW version of exploration pitiful and boring. There's nothing rewarding to it. There is exploration in SWTOR, granted its not got as many nooks & crannies to fall into or off of but you dont jus twalk around and go OMG there's a data cron. You actually have to look for it and figure out how to get to it (less you cheat) Infact some of them you can't even do on your own. It has exploration just on a different scale.

 

Personally WoW offers nothing that I want. I think it comes down to the type of game you want. WoW offers certaint types of players things and SWTOR offers another type of player things. I personally prefer what SWTOR has to offer and is offering soon as well.

 

My personal perception is the same as its always been when it comes to WoW....its pointless content since they only concentrate on the end. Cata sort of changed that a smidge but there's nothing holding it all together. There's no big over arching story that makes it an RPG like SWTOR has.

 

I think its funny you mention WoW at the start. I frankly remember WoW not having much of anything and being incredibly a pain in the rear in to log into and play when it started. The most it had which turned out to be fail was some 40 man raids which were ridiculous by design. WoW original state was pure gold in some people's rose tinted glasses, I honestly dont think those people played the game in its first year. It didn't have nearly as much working or right that SWTOR does when it started.

[Tarka]

All that fluff stuff didn't come until what recently? Really really recently. Kinda hard to have a game like SWTOR that has SO much stuff already and compare it to a game thats had time to ADD tons more stuff. Who's to say it won't add some more fluff? Oh wait it is..with the Legacy system. No offens epeople comparing the 2 games all the time irk me off. If you compare original wow to swtor ... SWTOR is superior. Comparing SWTOR to current wow...they're kinda which do you prefer.

 

Thing is, WoW isn't the only game to compare SWTOR to. And Ghostcrawlers comments are as valid to WoW as they are to EVERY MMO out there.

 

Also, one thing not to forget as well: whilst WoW may not have had some features, other MMO launches did. Both BEFORE and after WoW's launch. For instance, Rift launched with NPC faction content. It had reasons to explore the lands in the form of the "Cairns" AND little sparkly things which you picked up and collected.

 

The simple fact is that the world, technology and recipes for MMO launches have moved on since WoW's launch back in 2004.

 

THAT's why it's futile to use WoW has a sole comparison to how SWTOR should be.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Tarka

[Tarka]

I found WoW version of exploration pitiful and boring. There's nothing rewarding to it. There is exploration in SWTOR, granted its not got as many nooks & crannies to fall into or off of but you dont jus twalk around and go OMG there's a data cron. You actually have to look for it and figure out how to get to it (less you cheat) Infact some of them you can't even do on your own. It has exploration just on a different scale.

 

Well, it's a case of different strokes for different folks. SWTOR's "Datacron" concept is indeed a good incentive. Rift has something similar. Like I said in my previous reply, that's why citing the state of WoW back in 2004 is futile.

 

However, Wow's massive and connected landscape does have certain advantages over another game in which the landmasses are disconnected.

 

The fact is that the MMO industry has moved on. That's partly why expectations have risen.

 

Personally WoW offers nothing that I want. I think it comes down to the type of game you want. WoW offers certaint types of players things and SWTOR offers another type of player things. I personally prefer what SWTOR has to offer and is offering soon as well.

 

My personal perception is the same as its always been when it comes to WoW....its pointless content since they only concentrate on the end. Cata sort of changed that a smidge but there's nothing holding it all together. There's no big over arching story that makes it an RPG like SWTOR has.

 

I think its funny you mention WoW at the start. I frankly remember WoW not having much of anything and being incredibly a pain in the rear in to log into and play when it started. The most it had which turned out to be fail was some 40 man raids which were ridiculous by design. WoW original state was pure gold in some people's rose tinted glasses, I honestly dont think those people played the game in its first year. It didn't have nearly as much working or right that SWTOR does when it started.

 

Different strokes for different folks.

Like Ghostcrawler said, the key is to appeal WELL enough to a broad enough audience.

 

I believe that options and variety in content and activities (that have sufficient depth) can be part of the solution. Thus allowing the player to create their own unique and "personal" experiences whilst playing the game. Those are the experiences that stay with players and encourage them to keep logging in.

 

On that note, I'm off to bed.

Take care all, and try to keep it civil

Edited March 13, 2012 by Tarka

[Knockerz]

Ghostgrawler will say what you want to hear especially for an upcoming expansion. In cataclysm Blizzard failed to deliver on that under water raid. Blizzard also failed to inform their customer that major class changes would occur just two months after the expansion went live. My warrior's got her charge and intercept put on the same cd, which had I know this would have happen I wouldn't have bought cataclysm. Druids also lost their shape shifting out snares. I don't know what happen, but from wotlk to cataclysm pugs for raid pretty much died.

 

A major concern that Ghostcrawler did not address was the issue of 25 vs 10 man raids. The problem is that 25 mans dying. What does Blizzard intend to do with raid size problem? Do they plan to have one type of raid size only or are they going to continue with the 25 and 10 man raids until 25 mans are non existent? The same is true of arenas. If there are very few players using arenas does Blizzard intent to stop supporting arenas. How about the nerfing of heroic modes? I can keep going, but GW only answers trivial question and will give a definitive answer to difficult questions.

 

Most o the world in wow is devoid of people playing in it. At least that is what I think. Do you really need a large area if your only one of two people leveling in it? The only advantage I see with a large world is for archeology and for mining/herbing. Otherwise, most of the space in wow is a complete waste of space and hardly any one explores. If it weren't for archeology I wouldn't never have return to desolance, but eventually you realize archeology has a ridiculous rng and you quit. Obviously, the archeology has that rng, so as to make archeology a big time sink, which most players just ignored due to the huge waste of time required to invest in it. Kinda like trying to get BM gear in swtor at moment. Most players will quit after realizing how much time will be required and how long it will take to get your gear.

 

 

I think what GW meant is that Cataclysm leveling zones had too many instances or phasing and instead want it more linear like the starting belf and ghostlands zone.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Knockerz

[StrykerOne]

I actually prefer the TOR style of questing... have a few quests at the beginning of a zone, and let one of those lead you to another settlement with a few more quests, etc... The problem with having a ton of quests in one place that send you all over the zone or a bunch of quests scattered all over is that you end up doing a lot more required travel. That would be fine if we got speeders that actually moved at a decent pace (or true flight on them, like WoW has in some zones) but running back and forth across the same zone at 20 miles an hour or so tops gets old, fast. Especially after you have explored it once.

 

I prefer having things like datacrons and a few optional side quests scattered around to reward exploration and keeping the majority of the quests fairly linear. Well, I'd really prefer scattering things all over the zone and giving us travel speeds equal to City of Heroes, but good luck with that.