8/2/31 With Shield?

[Lompish]

Hello fellow swtor players!

 

I'm a vanguard with this spec: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hRMZ0MZbIbbdGGMs.1

 

Whilst using this, should I use a shield instead of generator? Im planning on going eliminator set at 50 with this spec but im wondering, shield or generator? .

 

Hopefully you can help me abit here .

 

-regards-

[Savish]

Generator

[Lompish]

Thank you

[Hethroin]

Hello fellow swtor players!

 

I'm a vanguard with this spec: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hRMZ0MZbIbbdGGMs.1

 

Whilst using this, should I use a shield instead of generator? Im planning on going eliminator set at 50 with this spec but im wondering, shield or generator? .

 

Hopefully you can help me abit here .

 

-regards-

 

Color me confused.

 

What is the purpose of this build?

 

Are you trying to be "Reasonable sustained DPS and be a poor excuse for a tank?"

 

Assault spec ammo-management relies on burning targets. If the target isn't burning you do not get the 1-ammo refund on HIB. If you are spending 3 ammo and are using IR to apply "burning" to all your targets you will quickly run out of ammo, or you will be using hammer shot 2 out of every 5 attacks.

 

If you want to tank I would advise going 24 or more points into the SS tree for the Ammo regen and the utility. If your plan is to DPS with assault talents I would advise a NON-Shield Generator and Plasma Cell. Being able to HIB immediately after an Ion pulse is vital when people know how to combat your spec. Specifically Operative healers will cleanse your IR DoT, and leave you with the option of using another 3 ammo applying it or not being able to HIB. You will be out of ammo before you know it.

 

All that being said even in my 2/8/31 spec I do find myself swapping to Ion Cell every so often. I do this for warzones where there is no tank at all to guard the healer, or when there is no better ball-runner candidates in hutt ball. Usually find myself doing about 60% of the total damage I would be able to do if I had Plasma Cell up.

[me_unknown]

Color me confused.

 

What is the purpose of this build?

 

Are you trying to be "Reasonable sustained DPS and be a poor excuse for a tank?"

 

Assault spec ammo-management relies on burning targets. If the target isn't burning you do not get the 1-ammo refund on HIB. If you are spending 3 ammo and are using IR to apply "burning" to all your targets you will quickly run out of ammo, or you will be using hammer shot 2 out of every 5 attacks.

...

 

actually what he is trying to use is one of the best pvp builds. you do not need plasma cell for burning targets. for this he has incendary round. it keeps the target burning for 18s.

and for hib even the ion cell with ion overload is enough in case the dot of incendary round got dispelled.

 

the reason for using ion cell here the extra survivability you gain while you do not lose much damage over plasma cell.

Edited March 13, 2012 by me_unknown

[Hethroin]

actually what he is trying to use is one of the best pvp builds. you do not need plasma cell for burning targets. for this he has incendary round. it keeps the target burning for 18s.

and for hib even the ion cell with ion overload is enough in case the dot of incendary round got dispelled.

 

the reason for using ion cell here the extra survivability you gain while you do not lose much damage over plasma cell.

 

I would argue that Ion Cell PVP DPS is a good "solo que PVP build". My experience is, like I said: when I run Ion Cell with 31 Assault is that I deal 30-40% less total damage. This is obviously without the DoT on Ion, which may raise the damage slightly, but not nearly enough.

 

What you failed to read in the passage you quoted is that Cleanses cause IR to be removed from targets. People that matter will cleanse IR; while people that don't matter, stay inconsequential. Having IR removed leaves you 1 ammo short (from where you would be with plasma cell) every time you use HIB after Ion Pulse.

 

Sometimes you do not want to IR a target, running Ion Cell causes you to do this to reliably HIB them. When you expect a target to die within 10 seconds, spending 3 Ammo to put IR on it is an ammo loss that you cannot make up. Being able to change targets, hit Ion Pulse and go directly to HIB is key to scoring kills as a DPS in a group.

 

While the DoT from Ion Cell does allow you HIB it does not become auto-applied every Ion Pulse, it is applied with SS (or randomly) which has a cooldown longer than the DoT's duration. This causes a problem when changing targets, doubly so when you consider that people will cleanse things when combating a HIB-spammer.

 

Does "one of the best PVP specs" use a shield generator?

Because I can guarantee you the damage loss is very significant, about 250 tech power with losses of about 70 crit, surge and/or power. When you combine these with the losses in ammo consumption per kill, assuming you can even kill whatever it is you're trying to kill, you end up losing too much damage.

 

Again, if you want to be tanky and still do some DPS I would highly recommend 24 SS with 17 tactics or 17 Assault. Gear for DPS with Combat Tech gear and a shield. The ammo management is much better. You get a way to reset SS, and charge, and root on harpoon/scan, and other utility that replaces a bunch of wasted points in the Assault tree of the "8.2.31 spec with Ion Cell".

Edited March 13, 2012 by Hethroin

[me_unknown]

I would argue that Ion Cell PVP DPS is a good "solo que PVP build". My experience is, like I said: when I run Ion Cell with 31 Assault is that I deal 30-40% less total damage. This is obviously without the DoT on Ion, which may raise the damage slightly, but not nearly enough.

i don't believe you. you can do everything you do in assault without plasma cell. you have the burn effect with IR, but even without that it won't be 30-40%.

 

What you failed to read in the passage you quoted is that Cleanses cause IR to be removed from targets. People that matter will cleanse IR; while people that don't matter, stay inconsequential. Having IR removed leaves you 1 ammo short (from where you would be with plasma cell) every time you use HIB after Ion Pulse.

no i didn't failed reading this. but you are wrong that most of the time against good players IR gets removed instantly. if this is possible and if it happens is very situational.

 

don't start arguing which build is the better dps one. it is not about getting the best dps build. the build of the op is one that keeps you longer alive in some situation while you usually have more or less the same damage as an assault build with plasma cells.

 

 

 

Sometimes you do not want to IR a target, running Ion Cell causes you to do this to reliably HIB them.

no, i am playing with ion cell. i can permanently spam HIB if it wasn't on cooldown. ion cell together with its dot and its chance to apply give you an >90% uptime already on its own.

 

When you expect a target to die within 10 seconds, spending 3 Ammo to put IR on it is an ammo loss that you cannot make up. Being able to change targets, hit Ion Pulse and go directly to HIB is key to scoring kills as a DPS in a group.

you describe a situation to sustain something that is not the point. in this situation i would only lose the 9% damage from rain of fire if i don't apply IR first. but this is not the common situation you/I usually face. and especially it is not a 30-40% damage reduction.

 

 

you are wrong about the uptime of the ion cell dot. totally wrong! even with cleanse spamming mad people around.

 

i do ont deny that it is saver with the reight talents and plasma cell. no one does. but in practice the difference is rather small if played right, if you see any at all. while ion cell gives you quite much protection instead.

of course, the profit of ion cells protection depends on your play style and what you can make out of it. if one thinks he enters god mode and jumps into 5 opponents alone he will die pretty fast with or without it.

 

my point about your post was not that there are reasons for one or the other, but you failed quite badly to understand the reasoning behind it and you seem to overrated the discrapancy of the damage potential.

 

cool down and maybe you wanna try it yourself once. you'll see that you won't do significant less damage. sure there is a difference, no one denice it, but it is by far NOT 30-40%. don't claim such absurd numbers if you want to be taken serious.

 

 

EDIT: but not to forget: you have no clue what the op is actually playing, solo, pug , organized grp etc. you are blaming this build usefullness judging only by your personal circumstances you are playing. this is not fair.

Edited March 13, 2012 by me_unknown

[Coramac]

Hethrion is right. You don't put 31 points into Assault and not run Plasma Cell. It's a terrible idea. I count 5 wasted points, 3 points that are basically a waste, and one point that is lessened.

 

If you want to run Ion Cell, there are builds that work well with it. They aren't 31 points in Assault. Period. Assault Plastique is not worth the reach.

 

It's even worse against good teams as Ion Cell is very tricky to keep up. I'm pretty sure it doesn't proc off Ion Pulse which is extremely important. It makes it rather trivial to cleanse. I suppose you would probably benefit from teams not knowing what you were doing as the build itself doesn't make sense. Assaut Plastique is good. It's not worth the reach. You'd be far better off with the bird build. An 18 point reach into Assault to pick up the HIB resets does make sense. You do waste points, but it's better burst than what you pick up for 18 in Tactics if you are trying to skew that direction.

 

31 points in Assault is for burst pure and simple. If you are going for a pure burst build, you don't run in defensive stance. Period. End of story. If you disagree, you're just wrong.

[Hethroin]

I was saying my DPS goes down 30-40% as a 2/8/31 spec when I swap (because the situation calls for some defense) to Ion Cell from Plasma. This is a combined effect on losing instant proc DoT on Ion Pulse and the ammo management issue. I can see how this could have been misinterpreted. The damage drop is not as severe when you consider the ion cell dot and its allowance of HIB. I would still say the drop very close to 20-25% when comparing 2/8/31 in Plasma to 8/2/31 in Ion.

 

Ion dots do less damage than plasma. Ion dot does not crit for 1k on targets blow 30% plasma dot does. Plasma DoT also tics immediately when you hit a target with ion pulse, making that 1.2k ion pulse deal 1.7k damage when you combine both effects. More when you allow the dot to tic a few seconds before the next Ion pulse.

 

The burning target issue once again isn't that you can't use HIB. The issue is that you do not get an ammo refund. In order to get the refund you have to IR the target for 3 ammo, or be grouped with an other assault Trooper (does any other repub class put people on fire?). The refunded ammo or lack there of plays into the DPS difference. If you are ever on a target that lasts longer than 18 seconds, the expense of having to recast IR for refunds becomes unsupportable. On top of this we add the 9% damage bonus to HIB, Full Auto, SS, and lol-hammer-shot-lol against burning targets.

 

The idea of DPSing with a shield and ion cell has some merit, you're not nearly as squishy against marauders or Marksman Snipers. So if your group has no heals you may end up doing more total damage. In fact, you might just be confused for Mr. Tankytank, you do have Ion Cell up. Ignorant people may leave you alone till you're the last one standing. Yes you live longer, but your life is much less meaningful.

 

My opinion based on facts outlined above is that this spec is inferior from a DPS standpoint to 2/8/31 using Plasma, and at the same time also inferior to 24/x/x from a survival and utility standpoint.

 

If your goal in life is to be highly difficult to kill while at the same time spamming Ion and HIBs, I would advise something like this to add utility and keep most of the damage (Note the spec resets the SS cooldown when shielding attacks and thus has a statistically higher number of HIBs per minute, and an easier time maintaining the ion dot).

[Grundeg]

I ran 8/2/31 in Ion Cell from 1 to 61 valor. I found it was better to use the generator than the shield. It's an excellent pvp spec.

 

I've since changed to 7/3/31 dropping the slow and haven't noticed a difference other than higher HIB damage. Others might feel the lack, it depends on the competition and who you play with. I don't duel and don't go out of my way to find 1 on 1 fights either, so that plays into it.

 

I've tried running 4/6/31 and 2/8/31 and the result was marginal to no actual increase in killing power and a bigger than expected drop in survivability.

 

I have 3 talent points that do nothing for me in pvp and 2 that do nothing for me in pve. I don't care. It's the results of the whole that matters.

 

If this were pve and you didn't have to account for Ion Cell's threat increase, then some of the above posts would be correct. We aren't talking about pve though. Sustained dps is nice. It's burst that wins in pvp, and my burst in my spec is 99% of what it would be running one of the "pure" assault specs. The difference is I'm alive more often to put out that burst. If I want to put sustained dps on people I have a sage for that.

 

Ammo management is fine. The only times I find myself running out is in Voidstar/CW matches with an abundance of healers and nobody dies. Any vanguard spec will have issues with ammo in such games.

 

The ability to stack guard and taunts on the fly in specific situations is a nice bonus.

 

Some of you may not like the spec and that's fine. I works really well for me and it's certainly a viable pvp spec.

[Coramac]

Tunnel Vision is pro.

 

Plasma Cell >>>>> Ion Cell

 

/thread

[Hethroin]

I ran 8/2/31 in Ion Cell from 1 to 61 valor. I found it was better to use the generator than the shield. It's an excellent pvp spec.

 

I've since changed to 7/3/31 dropping the slow and haven't noticed a difference other than higher HIB damage. Others might feel the lack, it depends on the competition and who you play with. I don't duel and don't go out of my way to find 1 on 1 fights either, so that plays into it.

 

I've tried running 4/6/31 and 2/8/31 and the result was marginal to no actual increase in killing power and a bigger than expected drop in survivability.

 

I have 3 talent points that do nothing for me in pvp and 2 that do nothing for me in pve. I don't care. It's the results of the whole that matters.

 

If this were pve and you didn't have to account for Ion Cell's threat increase, then some of the above posts would be correct. We aren't talking about pve though. Sustained dps is nice. It's burst that wins in pvp, and my burst in my spec is 99% of what it would be running one of the "pure" assault specs. The difference is I'm alive more often to put out that burst. If I want to put sustained dps on people I have a sage for that.

 

Ammo management is fine. The only times I find myself running out is in Voidstar/CW matches with an abundance of healers and nobody dies. Any vanguard spec will have issues with ammo in such games.

 

The ability to stack guard and taunts on the fly in specific situations is a nice bonus.

 

Some of you may not like the spec and that's fine. I works really well for me and it's certainly a viable pvp spec.

 

I would urge you to review what you gain by running around in Ion Cell with no Shield over Plasma Cell.

 

Gain: 60% more armor and 5% passive damage mitigation.

For a combined 45% mitigation vs Energy and Kinetic and 5% vs Internal and Elemental damage.

 

Compared to 30% mitigation vs Energy and Kinetic and 0% Internal and Elemental damage.

 

Let's call it 15% Mitigation.

 

At the cost of a kiting/target-retention tool in the snare or loss of some HIB potency (7/3/31 vs 8/2/31). On top of what was outlined before.

 

The bottom line is you have to decide what role you are filling in a group.

 

If that role is "Tank" than by all means Ion Cell and go with 23+ Shield (with shield). Your DPS will not be all that far below that of 8/2/31 based on SS reset, SS crit-damage and ammo management alone.

 

If that role is "Killer" than stick with using Plasma Cell and x/x-10/31. I would also recommend the Eliminator set for this spec.

 

There is no "Tanky-Killer" role. Not for vanguard, not for shadow. Using the tank stance prevents you from using the DPS stance which does more DPS. Just because tank-hybrid builds can put numbers on the board and amount to over 75% of the total damage of a pure DPS does not make them "tanky-killers". They do good sustained damage and wear targets down rather than incinerate them. The total damage done by a tank-hybrid is inflated because he took longer to kill his target, and his target received more healing increasing the damage total it took to kill it. The only hybrids that can compete with a DPS spec in DBs is Shadow, and this can be attributed to their target-under-30-percent-finisher that hits for 4k on light armor irrelevant of the shadow's spec.

 

The only times I find myself running out is in Voidstar/CW matches with an abundance of healers and nobody dies. Any vanguard spec will have issues with ammo in such games.

 

Interesting, so you're saying you could not burst through some heals in your tank-stance-dps-spec? Do you suppose this could be because you spent the majority of your time out of ammo? Would you say that this could be a result of running a Plasma-Cell-based-Ammo-Regen spec in Ion Cell?

[Coramac]

I would urge you to review what you gain by running around in Ion Cell with no Shield over Plasma Cell.

 

Gain: 60% more armor and 5% passive damage mitigation.

For a combined 45% mitigation vs Energy and Kinetic and 5% vs Internal and Elemental damage.

 

Compared to 30% mitigation vs Energy and Kinetic and 0% Internal and Elemental damage.

 

Let's call it 15% Mitigation.

 

As much as I hate playing Devil's Advocate here, your actually looking at a 25% mitigation difference. Armor mitgation goes to 45% from 30% and then has a multiplicative reduction of 5%. It's marginal at best against Internal / Elemental but I wouldn't just reduce everything for that issue. It's situational survivability.

[Malvantyr]

I'm a 4/6/31 vanguard, valor 66. I tried 8/2/31 and the damage is fine, but when you are trying to kill healers all the time like me, plasma is better. When they cleanse your incendiary round, its all over for you.

 

I went back to normal assault, and I have no regrets about my survivability. I even remodded to have less endurance.

 

I'd rather high impact bolt for over 5k than have suvivability.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Malvantyr

[BardaTheHobo]

yeah ir is not a reliable means of dots unless its a 1v1. Good news though is that sorcs/sages cant cleanse tech. Only scoundrels/commandos can. Commandos is not that good and is "expensive" Scoundrels however, 4 second cooldown and heals (removes two) so if they have a scoundrel/op healer you are going to have a tough time. Especially since ir is such a noticeable ability when used. Edited March 13, 2012 by BardaTheHobo

[Grundeg]

Interesting, so you're saying you could not burst through some heals in your tank-stance-dps-spec? Do you suppose this could be because you spent the majority of your time out of ammo? Would you say that this could be a result of running a Plasma-Cell-based-Ammo-Regen spec in Ion Cell?

 

The situation I was referring to was not "some heals". I was referring to 4-5-6 healer situations in which nobody dies and 4 healer/4 guard games in which, again, nobody dies.

 

I have no problems bursting down sage/sorc healers. I seldom have trouble killing op/scoundrel healers although there are a few very good players I struggle at times against.. I have the same problems everyone else does killing well played/well geared merc/commando healers. Changing cells and a couple talent points isn't going to magically make that issue vanish.

 

Part of the reason I like my spec more than one running plasma cell is that I DO target healers. Many games almost exclusively. This means I go into that group on the side/middle in Voidstar that others avoid at all costs. I do attract attention and I do get focused. My extra survivability (which will certainly vary based on who I'm fighting but I promise you that lightning and pebble tossers don't like my spec) is more an advantage for me than the marginal gain in damage over time I'd get from the specs you say I should run.

 

As I've said before I've tried plasma cell specs. Compared to the spec I play in I melt like butter and the damage I do isn't significantly improved. How much time have you spent in my spec to compare?

 

Just because something is superior on paper and under ideal circumstances doesn't mean it plays out that way in real time.

 

Your spec may indeed be best for the way you play. It's not for me. Saying it's not viable is simply silly when I (and many others, the spec even has a nickname) go out on a daily basis and succeed with it.

[Malvantyr]

Your build it is plenty of viable, loveshock even ran that build in his youtube videos that everyone loved so much.

[Coramac]

Part of the reason I like my spec more than one running plasma cell is that I DO target healers. Many games almost exclusively. This means I go into that group on the side/middle in Voidstar that others avoid at all costs. I do attract attention and I do get focused. My extra survivability (which will certainly vary based on who I'm fighting but I promise you that lightning and pebble tossers don't like my spec) is more an advantage for me than the marginal gain in damage over time I'd get from the specs you say I should run.

 

This is one of the biggest problems I see with people PvPing. Tunnel visioning on healers is not always a smart play. It rarely is. In running Ion Cell, you have crippled your ability to target swap in any meangful way. You either cannot run full DPS on a target because you are waiting on to use Stock Strike on a swap or you cannot run full DPS on a swap because Stock Strike is on cooldown.

 

As I've said before I've tried plasma cell specs. Compared to the spec I play in I melt like butter and the damage I do isn't significantly improved. How much time have you spent in my spec to compare?

 

Judging from the previous paragraph, you are unaware of one of the most important advantages of Plasma Cell and were not utilizing it effectively. It is not a "marginal gain in damage over time." I'm not trying to demean you, but it is very hard for me to take PvP comments seriously when they so blatently promote tunnel visioning on a target which makes the opposing teams job infinitely easier. It's easy to heal. It's easy to disrupt.

[Hethroin]

...

I have no problems bursting down sage/sorc healers. I seldom have trouble killing op/scoundrel healers although there are a few very good players I struggle at times against.. I have the same problems everyone else does killing well played/well geared merc/commando healers. Changing cells and a couple talent points isn't going to magically make that issue vanish.

 

A competent merc or op healer, especially op, will cleanse you into ammo starvation any and every time unless you are running plasma and applying "Burning" and "Here comes HIB DoT" each and every Ion Pulse. 8 points in Shield with Ion Cell does not allow you to consistently keep and re-apply a DoT to a target. If it's removed you wait for a proc, or SS, or use 3 ammo to IR. I wold say that even bothering to target Ops and Mercs healers with the purpose of trying to solo-DPS them down is a gigantic waste of time and resources if you are running Ion cell. Sure you can disrupt and stun and cause them to heal themselves instead of others, but if you are saying to can solo kill a good Op/Merc healer with ION cell up you are not fighting a good Op or merc. Certainly not one that knows how to avoid getting hit for 5k by HIB.

 

Part of the reason I like my spec more than one running plasma cell is that I DO target healers. Many games almost exclusively. This means I go into that group on the side/middle in Voidstar that others avoid at all costs. I do attract attention and I do get focused. My extra survivability (which will certainly vary based on who I'm fighting but I promise you that lightning and pebble tossers don't like my spec) is more an advantage for me than the marginal gain in damage over time I'd get from the specs you say I should run.

 

The damage gain is hardly marginal and as stated above is included in the burst. Ion Pulse will proc the first tic of Plasma every time. You hit the guy twice once for Ion Pulse and once for Plasma every time to use Ion Pulse.

 

If your purpose in life is to "Attract attention" and "Get Focused" while "Going into the group in the middle..." I would highly recommend 23+ Shield spec, with a shield. You could still use the HIB resets with 18 Assault, but you would have a much higher uptime, a much higher uptime on your Ion DoT for HIB, and your Ammo management would not be pinned to keeping a 3-ammo IR on a target, but would be handled for you by all the people hitting your shield.

 

As I've said before I've tried plasma cell specs. Compared to the spec I play in I melt like butter and the damage I do isn't significantly improved. How much time have you spent in my spec to compare?

 

Just because something is superior on paper and under ideal circumstances doesn't mean it plays out that way in real time.

 

Your spec may indeed be best for the way you play. It's not for me. Saying it's not viable is simply silly when I (and many others, the spec even has a nickname) go out on a daily basis and succeed with it.

 

I will answer in the form of an analogy so that I don't have to re-type each line of my post before about ammo and DPS and cleanses...

 

Changing to 8/2/31 in Ion from 2/8/31 in Plasma for its damage mitigation is like trading in your Dodge Viper for a Dodge Caravan for all the safety features. While both can easily go 60mph on the highway I wouldn't put my money on the Caravan in a quarter mile race.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Hethroin

[kbstealer]

there are 2 specs i use, pve dps and pvp dps/tank.

 

for pve its 7/3/31 (plasma cell)

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMbZ0cZfI0bkGhrs.1

 

good burst, good sustained damage, squishy as f.uck

 

for pvp dps its 11/6/24 (ion cell)

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hRGZMsZbIbrzGMM.1

 

this pvp spec gives you the dot from cell proc so u can use hib right after a stockstrike, and since you're playing in ion cell you're way way tankier so you stay alive longer so you deal more overall damage.

 

to be fair, i've used the pve dps spec in pvp and done well, but i cannot take a hit and must run from pretty much everyone if i want to live.