Lostpharoah Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) However, a game cannot be equally appealing to all player types. Developer resources are finite and must be focused on the game's target audience, with occasional bones tossed to those not in the mainstream. Originally, SWTOR was not going to have crafting, then it was wedged in at the last minute. Having seen that players enjoy it, they are allocating more resources to it for the 1.2 expansion, and going forward. However, SWTOR was never planned to be a crafting focused game or have a fully player-driven economy, and it's foolish to expect that to change dramatically. It especially will not become anything like SWG; could you imagine trying to quest with the entire planet covered with harvesters and factories? Offline/mission based crafting is very likely to remain the framework for the rest of the game's life; it may be better balanced and offer more choices and options, but it's probably not going to change in basic structure. Just as if you want a FFA full loot PVP game, this is not the game for you, so if you want a primarily crafting focused game, this is not the game for you. - That is simply not true. what ever gave you that idea. the plan from the start most certainly hand a crafting element to it. STO on the other had Did not have any plans for crafting.. So I think you are getting you games confused. - What the heck is this ?? umm again simply not true and seems you are formulating your own opinion and trying to pass off as fact.. to build any mmo with out an economy is like burger bar not selling cheese burgers.. That is one of the most ridiculous things ive read on these forums to date.. Just saying ... Edited March 12, 2012 by Lostpharoah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlaine Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 However, a game cannot be equally appealing to all player types. Developer resources are finite and must be focused on the game's target audience, with occasional bones tossed to those not in the mainstream. Originally, SWTOR was not going to have crafting, then it was wedged in at the last minute. Having seen that players enjoy it, they are allocating more resources to it for the 1.2 expansion, and going forward. However, SWTOR was never planned to be a crafting focused game or have a fully player-driven economy, and it's foolish to expect that to change dramatically. It especially will not become anything like SWG; could you imagine trying to quest with the entire planet covered with harvesters and factories? Offline/mission based crafting is very likely to remain the framework for the rest of the game's life; it may be better balanced and offer more choices and options, but it's probably not going to change in basic structure. Just as if you want a FFA full loot PVP game, this is not the game for you, so if you want a primarily crafting focused game, this is not the game for you. Agreed in principle. However the two really aren't mutually exclusive. IMO SWG failed because they neglected non-crafting activities. That doesn't mean that crafting should be scaled down. It just means they need to create more non-crafting activities, like more dungeons, perhaps some raids, improve on the galactic civil war, etc. There's also lots of ways to create the complexity of swg crafting without all the baggage that went with it (e.g. scattered harvestors and factories). For example, you could drop crafting enhancements from various random mobs. You could add resource qualities to crew skill missions (e.g. UT, TH). You could add factory and schematic capabilities within the player ship. You could even add limited player housing for merchant shops in an instanced city portion. But the only way this all works out is to create a true player economy. I've come to the conclusion that it just can't be mutually exclusive to raiding, because raiding seems to be the glue that holds mmos together nowadays. So instead of having crafters create items that compete with raid or dungeon drops, simply have crafters make gear enhancements. e.g. you find the epic gun of awesomeness from a top operations boss, and crafters could then sell the silencers, or magazine modifications, or something to that effect that would increase the capabilities of the gear without competing with raids. Sorry, I tend to blab about this stuff. way too much.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizardSF Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 - That is simply not true. what ever gave you that idea. the plan from the start most certainly hand a crafting element to it. STO on the other had Did not have any plans for crafting.. So I think you are getting you games confused. - What the heck is this ?? umm again simply not true and seems you are formulating your own opinion and trying to pass off as fact.. to build any mmo with out an economy is like burger bar not selling cheese burgers.. That is one of the most ridiculous things ive read on these forums to date.. Just saying ... Well, I humbly agree that you are, most likely, an expert on ridiculous things. I bow to your expertise in that area, and I doubt I will ever equal you, much less exceed you. You are conflating "player driven economy" and "any economy" -- generally, player driven economies apply to sanbox games (SWG, EVE, Darkfall) where all or most items are player crafted. Most theme park MMOs (of which SWTOR is a typical example) have player economies as a sideline; a player can easily get equipment without ever visiting a player vendor, and crafting skills are a secondary pursuit. Further, some MMOs have extremely limited crafting and economies; WAR is one such, with a crafting system so sparse as to be effectively non-existent (at least at the point I played). City of Heroes had absolutely no crafting for the first few years of its existence, and it was quite successful in its genre. Perhaps, before making statements about game design, you should be familiar with more than one or two games? As for whether or not crafting was part of the original design... check out this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiO0M8reSPk . (Around 0:45-1:15). Basically, the original design was about being "heroic", not "a day in the life of Star Wars", and their design motto was "What Would Vader Do?", which was, apparently, "Not make boots". This is what led to the crew skill concept, as some of the devs recognized crafting was an important sub-game within the game. So, as I said, not part of the original design; added in during development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clayburn Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Tears. Nostalgic tears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizardSF Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 There's also lots of ways to create the complexity of swg crafting without all the baggage that went with it (e.g. scattered harvestors and factories). For example, you could drop crafting enhancements from various random mobs. You could add resource qualities to crew skill missions (e.g. UT, TH). You could add factory and schematic capabilities within the player ship. You could even add limited player housing for merchant shops in an instanced city portion. I agree with most of these as good ideas, except maybe player shops; I like them in theory, but, in practice, a central auction house works best in a quest hub/PVE game. One reason that games do *not* imitate "that cool idea that only one game ever had" was that it didn't really work. Game designers, like all creative people, are lazy plagiarists at heart; if an idea works, it will be copied. If an idea isn't widely copied, you can be reasonably sure it's because it didn't work, regardless of what people not involved in the game might think. I'd also like to see more in-person services crafters can perform, as community-building tools. Slicers opening "encrypted data files" that can drop credits or schematics, for example, or armor/weapon crafters performing "tuning" (several-hour-long buffs) on weapons and gear, or consumable items (ablative armor plates, fragile focusing crystals, overcharged generators) to keep a steady market going. But the only way this all works out is to create a true player economy. I've come to the conclusion that it just can't be mutually exclusive to raiding, because raiding seems to be the glue that holds mmos together nowadays. So instead of having crafters create items that compete with raid or dungeon drops, simply have crafters make gear enhancements. e.g. you find the epic gun of awesomeness from a top operations boss, and crafters could then sell the silencers, or magazine modifications, or something to that effect that would increase the capabilities of the gear without competing with raids. I concur; the real problem with this model is not the mechanics, which are simple to implement, but raiders whining they "have to deal with greedy crafters" in order to get their gear top-line. A primarily enhancement/upgrading/cosmetic model for crafting could be implemented in code easily, but there's often player resistance to being "forced" to buy items or prowl the markets, or "forced" to level up crafting since they don't want to pay inflated prices, etc. (You saw this a LOT in pre-NGE SWG, which was part of the driver for the NGE; players wanted to kill and loot, not buy.) Crafting inter-dependency would be nice, too; different crafting classes make components for other classes. However, this tends to lead to alt-mules, and "I'm FORCED to level this crafting skill I hate because I don't want to deal with other players in a multi-player game." So, again, a good idea runs into the wall of player psychology. (I wonder if you could actually work some of the story mechanics into the game... perhaps you could be given a choice: Go slaughter 50 sandpeople, OR, craft 25 high-powered rifles to give to the moisture farmers so they can defend their farms.) Sorry, I tend to blab about this stuff. way too much.... No problem; intelligent and reasoned posts that present arguments with supporting facts and models are always welcome. Also, rare. (Occasionally, when mousing over some recipes, I'll see things like "Requires: Armormech Bench" or the like. This implies there were specific crafting stations at one point in the past, that were removed. I don't know if they're ever come back. It's also worth noting that despite the fact that modification benches currently do nothing, not only are they not removed from the game, a few more were added in during early patches. That tells me they have a plan to enhance at least some aspects of crafting.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sziroten Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) What made SWG crafting so "amazing" - player crafted world (yes everything but 1-3 npc cities per planet in that game were crafted!, at least till NGE) - experimenting - rare components - ever changing resources (which allowed some few lucky/ unemployed people to be something special) With 1.2, Crafter will be able to craft the best hull while you have to fill it with the best mods. Compared to Galaxies, you already gained first and third argument. You can't experiment in SWToR but there are 15 (14) different kinds of one equipeable component (counting only artifact quality). Second argument, done. Regarding the resources and the crafting process itself, just because you need thousands of pieces to build one armor piece doesn't make it a "better" crafting experience for the majority. But also you shouldn't get your final piece after you just got the resources. If you want to have the best crafting items, you have to invest time/ money/ nerfs.... I think that is enough. Changing resources were only ever a benefit for those having more time than others and were playing earlier because some resources wouldn't ever spawn again... I played SWG for over 4 years from release till after NGE and yes, crafting was good but crafting in ToR aside the Endcontent value at the moment, is more fun to me. Edited March 12, 2012 by Sziroten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khadroth Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) What made SWG crafting so "amazing" - player crafted world (yes everything but 1-3 npc cities per planet in that game were crafted!, at least till NGE) - experimenting - rare components - ever changing resources (which allowed some few lucky/ unemployed people to be something special) With 1.2, Crafter will be able to craft the best hull while you have to fill it with the best mods. Compared to Galaxies, you already gained first and third argument. How does crafting armor relate to crafting houses, furniture, casual clothing... it's no where close. I honestly wasn't a fan of the player-made cities, they sucked the life out of the original ones in SWG turning everything but their spaceports into ghost towns. That said orange armor is no where close to the depth of crafting SWG had. You can't experiment in SWToR but there are 15 (14) different kinds of one equipeable component (counting only artifact quality). Second argument, done. Lol no not done. You can't get nearly the amount of customization you could with experimentation. Experimentation gave you a certain amount of points to distribute in any way you chose. On the other hand with our mod system we're forced into certain paths. I can't get an enhancement with power/crit, they don't exist. I can't even get a straight power enhancement. Experimentation was far and away the best crafting concept I've ever seen in a game, and sadly I don't think I'll ever see it again. Regarding the resources and the crafting process itself, just because you need thousands of pieces to build one armor piece doesn't make it a "better" crafting experience for the majority. But also you shouldn't get your final piece after you just got the resources. If you want to have the best crafting items, you have to invest time/ money/ nerfs.... I think that is enough. Changing resources were only ever a benefit for those having more time than others and were playing earlier because some resources wouldn't ever spawn again... Only part I'll agree with you on. I loved how the best crafters had the best tools/workbenches that they had taken a long time or spent a lot of money to get. But the biggest barrier to becoming a quality crafter by far was the resources. On a heavy pop server it just wasnt even possible to acquire in many circumstances, because the prime quality areas were filled to the brim with harvestors. Edited March 12, 2012 by Khadroth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurader Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I'm talking about SW:G...........again. My Lord it was so phenomenal compared to this craptastic iteration of RNG. If you wanted to craft high-end stuff for any level, you actually had to wait for the ideal components to be available, and you had to hire people to go out and harvest these for you ( I literally milked cows for a week because it was awesome milk week ). I do like the "send my crew out" system, but it is so redundant - is bountiful available? no. is rich available? no. it's only companion gift missions. BLOW ME. Grinding 982 Avian Meat on Naboo for a $17MM contract with a deadline was immersive. Sending five people out that come back with less than one person's yield after failed REs is not. Please make crafting awesome again. Yeah SWG was the bomb.. as in the worst game SOE ever put tainting SW while they reigned... then lucas had to step in and b***h slap them... not to mention the living online just so you could make ends meat, constantly having to dump credits into housing and extractors... etc etc... you mean that game right? How about the negative forum feed back from CSRs, and Dev with a constant reminder that it was their game, to which again Lucas had to step in. How about the misinformed CSR and Devs that had never even seen SW, or even knew what half the weapons they put in did... you mean that game right? Oh i know... item decay, that was immersive.. you pulled out our blaster and it decayed in your hands.. Oh oh i know... how about the constantly "Evolving" combat system.. to which put the final bullet in SOE's "Game"... You mean that game right... I was there.. from beta to rage of the wookies... it sucked... it was just the only thing shiny at the time to play... QFT.. Unless you seriously have brain damage, please stop.. otherwise I'm sorry for making fun of a retarded kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henu Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 So yeah......I think that line is where a lot of people will disagree with you. Nope, SWG was the amazing, our whole guild would rather do crafting rather than PVP or heroics. + beast master was even better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ademnus Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 swg crafting was mediocre. its only looked on fondly because the rest of the game was so terrible it looked amazing by contrast. the devs are listening to feedback, and it is being "fixed". once we get a bit more info from those 5 pages of pts notes and can actually analyze exactly whats changing and how, then you will have a right to complain. till then keep your knickers on. actually swg crafting was the only good part of the game. but it was a chore and a half. The best elements of it werre things we're not ever going to have here; housing and furnishings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwoo Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 imo both Horizons and Everquest II had better crafting systems than SWG. Though maybe I'm just remembering them fondly. Best part of EQ2 crafting (before they changed it) was watching the bot crafters die on the forge:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaturkey Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Yet a mmo is nothing more than grinding. The whole darn thing. You grind to each level, you grind through quests, you grind through your professions, you grind through raids. Every...single...thing....in a mmo is a grind. The fact that the grind is hidden doesn't make it any less of a grind. That's the point, it DOESNT feel like a grind. It doesn't feel like a 2nd job. It feels like a GAME with a focus on fun/immersion. The fact that it's hidden does make it less of a grind IMO. Perception is reality, if you believe you're having fun then you are, if you believe you're bored out of your mind then guess what, you're BORED OUT OF YOUR MIND. In truth, no MMO has held my interest for long because I could see thru the smoke n mirrors and new that I was wasting tons of time in a game with too little reward. If I wanted a 2nd job I'd go out and get one that pays me, not the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tadshackles Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Everything about SWG was amazing, everything. If you dont think so its because your simple. go play checkers. PRO-TIP: When calling a person or group of people stupid, it is imperative to spell everything correctly. Otherwise, you run the risk of looking... simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefy Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 enjoyed swg crafting when it was the original 12 pt system, was a 12 pt master chef / artisan with an alt 12pt weaponsmith and had one of the busiest shops in dantooine at one stage (i quit after "THE update" ™) but their is rose tinted glasses there I am sure, for new crafters they were never going to compete, because material spawns of the "best" nature sometimes went months of not coming, and because you still had some of the best meats, or spawns you could never be challenged because the stats on your canape/brandy etc were never going to be beaten except by fellow 12 pt crafters who had backlogged those spawns. Sure I got great enjoyment from it as i busted my hump, but how would "new" or aspiring crafters ever going to compete? people knew my shop would always be full of the best pvp foods available or that if they wanted one of the best acklay stun batons or power hammers, or t-21 rifles that their was only 2 or 3 shops that were guaranteed to have them in stock. (mine and jim-bob, god i miss those euro chimaera days) the social aspect of it was great though, i had hunter contracts for meat, other guildies or acquaintances who would pop down harvesters at a location on contracts and know i would always be there, it was like having employees:) The crafting system in the game was unique i must admit, im not a huge fan of the TOR one were i can't even craft anything. (i.e my companions do it all, best i can do is scan a box out in the open, i can't even use the crafting skills on my ship etc) To a lesser extent i even enjoyed the eq2 crafting system a lot more than i do with this one, alas the eq2 one WAS a grind though, it was almost like levelling a toon to endgame the amount of time taken, which in itself is pretty bad yes.. but the reward was you didnt have every player on your server with 400/400 crafting skills because they could click 1 button and it made your player far more unique that you actually did this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwoo Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 enjoyed swg crafting when it was the original 12 pt system, was a 12 pt master chef / artisan with an alt 12pt weaponsmith and had one of the busiest shops in dantooine at one stage (i quit after "THE update" ™) but their is rose tinted glasses there I am sure, for new crafters they were never going to compete, because material spawns of the "best" nature sometimes went months of not coming, and because you still had some of the best meats, or spawns you could never be challenged because the stats on your canape/brandy etc were never going to be beaten except by fellow 12 pt crafters who had backlogged those spawns. Sure I got great enjoyment from it as i busted my hump, but how would "new" or aspiring crafters ever going to compete? people knew my shop would always be full of the best pvp foods available or that if they wanted one of the best acklay stun batons or power hammers, or t-21 rifles that their was only 2 or 3 shops that were guaranteed to have them in stock. (mine and jim-bob, god i miss those euro chimaera days) the social aspect of it was great though, i had hunter contracts for meat, other guildies or acquaintances who would pop down harvesters at a location on contracts and know i would always be there, it was like having employees:) The crafting system in the game was unique i must admit, im not a huge fan of the TOR one were i can't even craft anything. (i.e my companions do it all, best i can do is scan a box out in the open, i can't even use the crafting skills on my ship etc) To a lesser extent i even enjoyed the eq2 crafting system a lot more than i do with this one, alas the eq2 one WAS a grind though, it was almost like levelling a toon to endgame the amount of time taken, which in itself is pretty bad yes.. but the reward was you didnt have every player on your server with 400/400 crafting skills because they could click 1 button and it made your player far more unique that you actually did this. No, you could still compete even coming in later. Maybe not so much with armor and weapons. But Artisan, BE clothing. I used to make millions selling speeders. Couple of the top armor and weapon crafters used to vastly outbid anyone else on the skill tapes to cut down competition. But, for grinding eg farming creds on Jantas, the best wasnt needed so other AS's could still turn a healthy profit. Save the best for base defence/takedown. I used to buy my food originally from the clowns guild (the ones with pie fetish^^) on Dantooine whilst doing solo groups ^^. Then from GL of SDK. BTW also was on on Chimeara. was in SDK before the CU (Sardukar on Lok). EASY co before SDK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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