Homogenize energy regen

[plic]

i did not mean to make it seem like it was nigh impossible to manage out energy, I just wanted to point out that other classes have better ways to manage resources through talents and we do not. I don't want my energy bar to never move then we would just face roll our keyboards like sorc/sage. I would like either talents that actually decreased energy cost by a GOOD amount, not 4 energy on a 25 energy spell...or give us a talent that every time we crit it grants say 7.5/15 energy internal Cd of 6 seconds.

[Obtena]

If it's about normalizing energy regen rates, do realize that already happens .... in stages depending on your energy. It's a great system because you get to choose what regen rates you can live with depending on your situation. TBH, I don't think that's the a fix for anything. I would opt for reduced costs before changing the energy regen scheme for operatives.

 

And make no mistake, if BIO would make it a flat rate regen rate, I'm almost certain it wouldn't be in OP's favour.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Obtena

[SneakyErvin]

Your bold part sir is wrong. I play both a sorc and an op. As a sorc, both full lightning and light/mad hybrid I never once had to worry about my force...I fluctuated around 400-450/500 just from doing my normal rotations and and all of my abilities costed force. The different between that and an oper is that on my sorc i have a static 9% cost reduction, every time i cast lightning strike(full lightning spec) I can increase my force regen up to 30% and maintain it through entire fights, and every time I critically hit with ANY of my abilities, dots included, I reduce the already reduced cost of my next 2 spells by 50%.

 

I pvp and pve and I agree in pvp as an op we need to pick our fights wisely and in pve we need to use our 0cost ability to help maintain energy and as a CD filler. But, there should not be that huge of a gap in resource management. As a sorc I can use all of my abilities and not once have to focus on managing my force. As op you need to stick to a very strict rotation to put up nice consistent numbers that are still lagging behind everyone.

 

I have no issues with managing my force either on my sorc, but I dont feel it is easier to manage than my operative, just different. Both work well just the way they are now.

 

I get starved in long PvP battles because of shielding, constant dpsing and healing. There is just one big difference, sorcs dont really have any burst. My sorc is full madness which I enjoy, even though healers can be a pain to take down due to the lack of burst. Good sustained damage. Also sorcs have NO free abilites to fill gaps so force needs to work like it does.

 

Operatives get free abilites, regen cds, burst and escape mechanics.

 

Energy is fine as it is.

Edited March 12, 2012 by SneakyErvin

[Forceconduit]

A properly spec'd hybrid madness/lightning sorcerer has absolutely no resource management whatsoever while also dishing out good burst. Let's take a look at the talents I'm referring to.

 

Madness tree - Sith Efficay - allows you to recover 1% of your total force when dealing damage with Force Lightning. Wrath - grants you a 30% chance when dealing damage through Force Lightning to cause your next damaging Force ability with an activation time to activate instantly and deal 20% more damage. Deathmark - increases amount of damage targets suffer from your next 10 periodic damage abilities by 20% (use Crushing Darkness for instant cast when Wrath Procs after placing a Deathmark on a target).

 

Lightning tree - Reserves - increases your total Force by 100. Chain Lightning - Delivers an arc of lightning that deals 792 damage to up to 5 targets within an 8 meter radius (if Wrath procs it deals 20% more damage and is an instant cast). Lightning Barrage - Afflictions critical hits have a 100% chance to grant Lightning Barrage, causing your next Force Lightning to channel and tick twice as fast, cannot occur more than once every 10 seconds. Spam tab Affliction on everyone and you will get it every 10 seconds.

 

And last but not least, the biggie - Lightning Effusion - Force attacks that critically hit have a 100% chance to grant Lightning Effusion, reducing the Force cost of your next two Force abilities by 50%. You will literally never run out of force with this talent, it procs more times than you can use it.

 

So yeah, can I have something similarly overpowered to that kind of resource management on my operative please?

Edited March 13, 2012 by Forceconduit

[Canis_Anubis]

For my part, I feel that flattening energy regeneration will accomplish nothing to make the Agent class better, save to lower the amount of attention players need to pay to their resource consumption.

[Tamanous]

I don't think many fully realise what that would do to operatives. If you keep your energy above 60-70% by cycling your abilities properly you in fact keep a higher energy regen than inq/cons.

 

Having a linear return would in be a huge nerf to those who know how to use the current energy system.

[NeoHenrik]

Thank you very much everyone for making your cases.

 

It seems a flat rate of energy regeneration would not be a quick fix and is not desired by the community.

 

Kudos on keeping the comments constructive and informative, here's to my learning to play Op better!

[Forceconduit]

The problem, is that you want to frontload your damage fast for burst, at least in pvp anyways. You end up in a situation where you are "duking it out" with another melee class and you are burning through your energy quickly. At that point you can pop Adrenaline Probe when it's not on CD. But outside of that, once your enery is low, you are sitting there unable to use abilities due to energy starvation. Stim Boost is a joke to use when in combat, restoring 3 energy every 3 seconds over 45 seconds. It might be useful to use right before a Cloaking screen and then you can sit in a corner somewhere while it regenerates if you happen to have a TA to waste.

 

On a final note, I'm only level 24 and I don't have all my abilities yet, but I would imagine I would still run into the same situations if I'm caught in a drawn out fight.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Forceconduit

[SneakyErvin]

The problem, is that you want to frontload your damage fast for burst, at least in pvp anyways. You end up in a situation where you are "duking it out" with another melee class and you are burning through your energy quickly. At that point you can pop Adrenaline Probe when it's not on CD. But outside of that, once your enery is low, you are sitting there unable to use abilities due to energy starvation. Stim Boost is a joke to use when in combat, restoring 3 energy every 3 seconds over 45 seconds. It might be useful to use right before a Cloaking screen and then you can sit in a corner somewhere while it regenerates if you happen to have a TA to waste.

 

On a final note, I'm only level 24 and I don't have all my abilities yet, but I would imagine I would still run into the same situations if I'm caught in a drawn out fight.

 

That could be the case in a long drawn fight. But the only drawn out fights you will get into, besides group vs group fights are the 1vs1 against a healer. But in the same time the healer wont be able to damage you much in return.

 

When its group vs group you should unload your damage onto a healer, then run back, use free attack to interrupt cappers and just regain energy. Then into the fight and unload on the next healer. Use cloaking screen if you want to use hidden strike unless you manage to get out of combat fast (lol@the so called fix).

 

It's great you mention being 24, gives you credibility to your comment and you are clearly aware you havent gotten all your stuff yet. Cudos.

 

So to answer this a bit, you will get alot of extra energy regen. stim boost, if specced consealment will become 50% better, from 3 per 3 sec to 4.5 per 3 sec. Aswell as healing you for 2% if your life per tick, not great, but it can save your life.

 

If you go down the lethality tree you will get your dot crits a 100% chance to proc 2 energy each time they crit, crit chance should be around 50% at level 50 with decent pvp gear and the dot crit talent in lethality. Aswell as a lowered cd on adrenal probe and 10 energy straight up when using stim boost aswell as lowering its cd.

 

I'm no fan of lethality spec or the medic/leth hybrid at all, too much up keep and preperation in my taste. Also, it costs alot more energy to use most lethality skills compared to consealment. Like the tactical advantage skill needs two dots up to be worth it and it costs 25 energy or 19 if specced to use. Corrosive grenade is another 20 you must apply along with corrosive dart at 20 energy, aswell as 15 for a kolto probe in order for TA procs, 30 in order to heal youdecently and you need to keep it running. Thats alot of energy before you can actually do some proper damage. And hope the opponent doesnt clear a dot or 2.

 

 

I'm 5/31/5 and loving it. Cheap energy costs, free backstabs, good burst, no real build up.

Edited March 14, 2012 by SneakyErvin

[Forceconduit]

^^ Thanks for the constructive feedback SneakyErvin. Very informative, good tips and insight on the class and specs.

 

For the most part yeah, you are right, fights tend to not last long enough to really drain my energy down too low. It's not something that I experience on a regular basis. Usually it's not a 1v1 scenario anyway, at some point other players are going to come in for backup.

 

Harassing the healers or the ball carriers or picking off vulnerable players at key moments is a better way of going about rather than trying to stand and fight toe-to-toe.

 

Hopefully I'll improve my game play and my contribution to the team in WZ's as I level and progress.

 

Huttball seems to be the most difficult WZ for me with all the traps and AoE's going on pulling me out of stealth, I have to be a little more aware of my surroundings and such. A lot of times if I'm up on one of the ledges I'll get knocked back and down to a lower level. I'm finding I prefer to stay on the lower platforms rather than getting taken out of the play by trying to engage on the upper platforms.

 

P.S. could you link your concealment build please?

Edited March 14, 2012 by Forceconduit

[Canis_Anubis]

The problem, is that you want to frontload your damage fast for burst, at least in pvp anyways. You end up in a situation where you are "duking it out" with another melee class and you are burning through your energy quickly. At that point you can pop Adrenaline Probe when it's not on CD. But outside of that, once your enery is low, you are sitting there unable to use abilities due to energy starvation. Stim Boost is a joke to use when in combat, restoring 3 energy every 3 seconds over 45 seconds. It might be useful to use right before a Cloaking screen and then you can sit in a corner somewhere while it regenerates if you happen to have a TA to waste.

 

On a final note, I'm only level 24 and I don't have all my abilities yet, but I would imagine I would still run into the same situations if I'm caught in a drawn out fight.

 

You say stim boost is a joke, when at worst it's a 20% boost to your energy regeneration rate, and at best it's a 50% boost. It is fantastically good, and should be up for the Operative at all times, period.

 

This is the fundamental failure to understand that bad Operatives are making: You're not a burst DPS class. The MMO world has moved on, and the time when you could play PVP and global people is long past. You HAVE to fight for the long game, and you should only dip down into the low end of your energy bar if it's going to make you win RIGHT NOW.

 

This was the exact same complaint bad Death Knights used in WoW: Once I use up all my blue runes, I can't cast Chains of Ice and I get kited to death over the next 10 seconds. Well, I guess you had better learn to plan your resource consumption better, instead of mashing your biggest damage button the instant it comes off cooldown.

[Forceconduit]

We're not a burst DPS class? What are you smoking? Concealment is all about burst, we have very little utility to work with, and even less sustained DPS. Concealment ops are closer to rogues not DK's buddy. Edited March 14, 2012 by Forceconduit

[Canis_Anubis]

We're not a burst DPS class? What are you smoking? Concealment is all about burst, we have very little utility to work with, and even less sustained DPS. Concealment ops are closer to rogues not DK's buddy.

 

Concealment got as much sustained DPS as any other hybrid AC in the game. But, by all means, go right ahead and fight uphill against your class' mechanics. I'm sure your opponents appreciate the easy kills you're providing.

 

I'm not making the DK comparison because their mechanics are similar, I'm making the comparison because a vocal portion of the player base is using their class mechanics badly and blaming the designers for making them 'underpowered'.

 

In point of fact, the Operative has the most in common with a druid, minus the shapeshift. You've got stealth, heals, an instant DoT, and yes, some good burst damage. But you're not going to burn anyone who's not pathetically undergeared in the space of time it takes you to unload your full energy bar, not by yourself, at any rate. The ratio of player damage and player durability is far too low to allow that. If that were viable, then you'd just have a pair of DPSers wtfpwning people before the other side's healer can finish a cast. So you've got to use teamwork, interrupts, and yes, some sustained damage techniques if you don't want to lose every fight because you dumped your entire energy bar and then had nothing left in your tank.

[SneakyErvin]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401McZGIGodk0dfzZhM.1

 

There is the link for the spec I use, it works great for me atleast. Great burst, good sustained damage. Was split when I distrubuted my last 2 points at 50. It was either Razor Edge (10% shiv) or 2 more points in Culling (extra damage dealt to poisoned targets).

 

I went with Razor Edge to bring up my shiv damage. The 2% extra from culling at max just didnt feel like well spent points. Its not always you want to use a poison except for the short 6sec acid blade. Same reason I skipped Tactical Opportunity.

[Howbadisbad]

We're not a burst DPS class? What are you smoking? Concealment is all about burst, we have very little utility to work with, and even less sustained DPS. Concealment ops are closer to rogues not DK's buddy.

 

Not sure if doesn't know how rogues work, or just trolling.

 

DK's are a far more accurate example of Operatives.

[Forceconduit]

I have a rogue, and I know the roles they fill. The mechanics behind "controlling" your target to set up a kill window for Shadow Dance, and the importance of pressuring healers. I'm not familiar with DK's, maybe ops are closer to DK's then rogues are, that is probably where I went wrong. The funny thing is, when I went over to the assassin threads inquiring how similar an assassin plays to a rogue, they told me to roll an operative instead. They said ops play closer to rogues than assassins do.

 

At the moment I'm at lvl 25 on my op, and the class seems to have a lot less utility than a WoW rogue. Looking down through the skillset we are very limited to what we can do to stay on a target outside of the initial stealth opener. I guess I have become really spoiled with all the goodies and resets available as a subtlety rogue.

 

The problem is, we can't stick on our targets for very long due to a lack utilities. No form of a gap closer is a real deal breaker considering how many classes have knockbacks and escape abilities. That being said, we have no type of Force Speed or Shadow Step equivalent type of ability to help counteract kiters. It is what it is.

[Ryemfoh]

The problem is, we can't stick on our targets for very long due to a lack utilities. No form of a gap closer is a real deal breaker considering how many classes have knockbacks and escape abilities. That being said, we have no type of Force Speed or Shadow Step equivalent type of ability to help counteract kiters. It is what it is.

 

I also came from Sub Rogue, and a gap closer is the only thing I miss from a PVE perspective (yes, if you're lucky you can use Take Cover). In PVP it is possible to maintain 100% uptime on Sever Tendon (with a short root every time it is activated), so it is very rare for someone to manage to kite me without help from his/her team.

[Canis_Anubis]

I have a rogue, and I know the roles they fill. The mechanics behind "controlling" your target to set up a kill window for Shadow Dance, and the importance of pressuring healers. I'm not familiar with DK's, maybe ops are closer to DK's then rogues are, that is probably where I went wrong. The funny thing is, when I went over to the assassin threads inquiring how similar an assassin plays to a rogue, they told me to roll an operative instead. They said ops play closer to rogues than assassins do.

 

At the moment I'm at lvl 25 on my op, and the class seems to have a lot less utility than a WoW rogue. Looking down through the skillset we are very limited to what we can do to stay on a target outside of the initial stealth opener. I guess I have become really spoiled with all the goodies and resets available as a subtlety rogue.

 

The problem is, we can't stick on our targets for very long due to a lack utilities. No form of a gap closer is a real deal breaker considering how many classes have knockbacks and escape abilities. That being said, we have no type of Force Speed or Shadow Step equivalent type of ability to help counteract kiters. It is what it is.

 

Look, I'm not trying to imply that Ops can't use some love in the PVP department, I just don't think that flattening energy regeneration is the right way to go about it.