Charge - A staple of the class

[Agooz]

If they swap Grapple for Jet Charge it would not affect tanks, it would give MDPS PT's a gap closer, and would not even be OP in PvP because instead of being able to pull a target out you can leap in head first.

 

 

I am not sure what is your experience is with a Pyro PT. Maybe you are speccing as AP and feel you're missing something and therefor asking for jetcharge, which is understandable since AP is far behind Pyro.

 

As a Pyro however, I would NEVER want to trade grapple for jetcharge, especially in pvp. You want to give me jetcharge for free? sure, but I wouldnt trade for it.

 

In PvE, as a pyro you dont need a gap closer, you have enough range to use while you're running to your target, so you are not missing out on anything. Unlike an ST, a pyro doesnt need to be in your face, we stay within the 10m and just go in for the RP every 9sec. Want to help out the tank, just grapple far away adds to the tank. Or just take them out yourself. As a Heavy DPS, we can take a lot of beating.

 

As far as an offtank role. A PvE version of Carolina Parakeet spec is awesome. You get the jetcharge if your want, and still dish out a ton of dps. I tank HMs in an St/PT hybrid in full dps gear. The only thing I swap is the shield.

 

Honestly I have a feeling PTs will get a nerf eventually.

[verfallen]

I never said any thing about taunt, any fight with adds or lots of movement required having a gap closer is the only way to do maintain solid effective damage as a MDPS.

 

 

If they swap Grapple for Jet Charge it would not affect tanks, it would give MDPS PT's a gap closer, and would not even be OP in PvP because instead of being able to pull a target out you can leap in head first.

 

 

As for stealth i have seen many bosses pulled many times while tanking because of it, the mechanic in its current form is stupid. Some bosses see stealth that is fine BUT they should not aggro on some one who is in stealth and farther away than other players.

 

You misunderstood when I said I would not argue the MDPS. I didn't mean i agreed, I meant its too ridiculous to continue arguing.

 

Because you prefer to use your close range attacks is far from meaning you are melee. You are ranged, you got missiles and a gun. You CAN attack adds without jumping in the mass. That you would prefer jumping in and using that punch and that pocket blade of yours (assuming you are advanced prototype spec) is one thing. But we are VERY far from a necessity.

 

Your predilection position isn't melee, its mid-range. Far enough not to be in the AoE, and taxing your healer for nothing, close enough to run and pull those melee attack quickly and back off, and you keep 10 meter range on most of your attacks.

 

So you really walk once on the enemy, and you got missiles, dart and railshot for this part.

 

We are very far from a melee DPS

Edited March 9, 2012 by verfallen

[hulkweazel]

Unless you are Pyro with TD, you really have hardly any ranged capabilities and not sure why people fall back on that for the class. We are, a melee class. All "Melees" have ranged abilities, every single one of some aspect.

 

What separates Ranged from Melee though is Melee have to be within 10-4m to be effective. Ranged can make full use of their abilities at 30M+

Rapid Shots, Unload, Explosive Dart, Rail Shot, Flame Burst, DoA off the top of my head are all outside of melee range.

 

Only real melee abilities are Rocket Punch and Flame Sweep. We are not a pure melee class. Show me any melee class with this many range/midrange abilities. In fact, we have far more ranged capabilities than an Op does yet we have more gap closers than they do.

Edited March 10, 2012 by hulkweazel

[Varicite]

Rapid Shots, Unload, Explosive Dart, Rail Shot, Flame Burst, DoA off the top of my head are all outside of melee range.

 

Only real melee abilities are Rocket Punch and Flame Sweep. We are not a pure melee class. Show me any melee class with this many range/midrange abilities. In fact, we have far more ranged capabilities than an Op does yet we have more gap closers than they do.

 

We have 1 gap closer...

 

You make it sound as though we have so many in comparison. Technically, you are correct, as 1 is more than 0, I suppose, but it's on a long cd and pretty much every other melee-centric class can gap-close twice for every single time that we use Grapple.

 

With the exception of Operatives, who have stealth and "more escape methods than we do".

 

And by "more", I mean 1.

 

Also, what do you do for the next 10 seconds after you have used ED, Rail Shot, and Unload? Just Rapid Shots, right? You act as though Flame Burst and Rocket Punch being in melee range are negligible, when they are literally our 2 MOST used abilities, and Flame Burst itself makes up the majority of our damage. That's not negligible.

 

And I don't think anyone in their right mind considers 10m to be "ranged".

[Agooz]

 

Also, what do you do for the next 10 seconds after you have used ED, Rail Shot, and Unload? Just Rapid Shots, right? You act as though Flame Burst and Rocket Punch being in melee range are negligible, when they are literally our 2 MOST used abilities, and Flame Burst itself makes up the majority of our damage. That's not negligible.

 

And I don't think anyone in their right mind considers 10m to be "ranged".

 

Flame burst is our most used ability and is NOT melee, it is 10m, followed by railshot and that is 30m, then comes rocket punch, hence why we are saying you need only be in melee every 9sec. Now obviously I am talking as a Pyro.

 

Again I find it hard to believe that a heavy pyro who has been playing as such for a long time would have ANYTHING to complain about. The only INITIAL complaint of someone new to the tree is Heat, then you learn how to manage it.

 

I rolled a PT initially because I love the concept of the AP tree and that is all I wanted to play. Then as everyone who really tried, learns that it needs a major overhaul.

[verfallen]

We have 1 gap closer...

 

You make it sound as though we have so many in comparison. Technically, you are correct, as 1 is more than 0, I suppose, but it's on a long cd and pretty much every other melee-centric class can gap-close twice for every single time that we use Grapple.

 

With the exception of Operatives, who have stealth and "more escape methods than we do".

 

And by "more", I mean 1.

 

Also, what do you do for the next 10 seconds after you have used ED, Rail Shot, and Unload? Just Rapid Shots, right? You act as though Flame Burst and Rocket Punch being in melee range are negligible, when they are literally our 2 MOST used abilities, and Flame Burst itself makes up the majority of our damage. That's not negligible.

 

And I don't think anyone in their right mind considers 10m to be "ranged".

 

10 meter is effectively Ranged. Melee is 4m. Obviously, if everyone start applying "I" think ranged is 30m!!! This will stall. It is mid ranged, sure but still very muh outside melee reach.

 

The 30 meter ranged attack give you plenty to use while you move toward it.

 

Unless someone wants to argue laziness to walk is an argument, its very possible to do so with no downtime. Tank PT do so till level 30, and they can't really afford downtime.

[Varicite]

Flame burst is our most used ability and is NOT melee, it is 10m, followed by railshot and that is 30m, then comes rocket punch, hence why we are saying you need only be in melee every 9sec. Now obviously I am talking as a Pyro.

 

Again I find it hard to believe that a heavy pyro who has been playing as such for a long time would have ANYTHING to complain about. The only INITIAL complaint of someone new to the tree is Heat, then you learn how to manage it.

 

I rolled a PT initially because I love the concept of the AP tree and that is all I wanted to play. Then as everyone who really tried, learns that it needs a major overhaul.

 

I don't recall complaining about anything, I just don't think you can classify the PT as a "ranged" class when it's required to be w/in 10m from a target to really do any kind of dps outside of ED(TD) > EM > RS > Unload. After that you're just using rapid shots until cds finish, which is laughable damage-wise. I also mentioned RP as being a most-used ability for specs like Iron Fist that don't have 18 in Pyro. I prolly should've clarified, sorry.

 

I say it's melee-centric, or a hybrid, because it's essentially tethered to its opponents by a 10m leash for any real chance at victory. Sure you can get some nice potshots off at range, but any actual ranged class would look at what we can do and giggle.

 

Either way, I was just saying that I don't think you can call a PT a ranged class just because it has some ranged abilities. The "meat" of the spec is 4-10m, but we can get some abilities off if we're forced to be at range.

 

With that said, I don't honestly think Jet Charge needs to be baseline, and I definitely would never trade Grapple for it.

[Agooz]

I don't recall complaining about anything, I just don't think you can classify the PT as a "ranged" class when it's required to be w/in 10m from a target to really do any kind of dps outside of ED(TD) > EM > RS > Unload. After that you're just using rapid shots until cds finish, which is laughable damage-wise. I also mentioned RP as being a most-used ability for specs like Iron Fist that don't have 18 in Pyro. I prolly should've clarified, sorry.

 

I say it's melee-centric, or a hybrid, because it's essentially tethered to its opponents by a 10m leash for any real chance at victory. Sure you can get some nice potshots off at range, but any actual ranged class would look at what we can do and giggle.

 

Either way, I was just saying that I don't think you can call a PT a ranged class just because it has some ranged abilities. The "meat" of the spec is 4-10m, but we can get some abilities off if we're forced to be at range.

 

With that said, I don't honestly think Jet Charge needs to be baseline, and I definitely would never trade Grapple for it.

 

I agree, even as a Pyro, I do not consider myself a "ranged" class. But also, that 10m is not a leash but actually a HUGE advantage. I can not remember how many times I was jumped by a melee while at low health in a wz, and just having that 10m kiting chance won me the fight. I am willing to be that any warrior/jedi would give their right arm to have their abilities be 10m.

 

The more I play my PT, the less and less reason I find to play any other class really.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Agooz

[hulkweazel]

We have 1 gap closer...

 

You make it sound as though we have so many in comparison. Technically, you are correct, as 1 is more than 0, I suppose, but it's on a long cd and pretty much every other melee-centric class can gap-close twice for every single time that we use Grapple.

 

With the exception of Operatives, who have stealth and "more escape methods than we do".

 

And by "more", I mean 1.

 

Also, what do you do for the next 10 seconds after you have used ED, Rail Shot, and Unload? Just Rapid Shots, right? You act as though Flame Burst and Rocket Punch being in melee range are negligible, when they are literally our 2 MOST used abilities, and Flame Burst itself makes up the majority of our damage. That's not negligible.

 

And I don't think anyone in their right mind considers 10m to be "ranged".

You are wrong on several points.

 

1. Stealth is NOT a gap closer. Don't assume it is. Why do you think Assassins have Force Speed? Why do you think Rogues in WoW had Shadowstep? It's because, you guessed it, stealth is not a gap closer!

 

2. Why are you talking about escape methods? This is irrelevant. PTs aren't supposed to have escape methods. We have heavy armor, shield, and Kolto Overload - ie. much more survivability than Ops or Sorcs.

 

3. Flame Burst is NOT melee range. It's 10m. Melee range is 4m. Midrange is 10m (Flame Burst fits here). Long range is 30m. We have a lot of abilities in the midrange and long range category.

 

4. I never said PT is a ranged class. I said it's not a "pure melee" class. Which is true. Pure melee class = Juggs, Marauders, and certain Assassin builds (And arguably Ops).

[verfallen]

Stealth pretty much mean that you start the fight at the range you like. So maybe its not a gap closer per say, but it makes one less needed.

 

Sure we can say its not always possible if someone has stealth scan, but neither jumps or grapple/pull works against covered target.

 

But, as was pointed out multiple time, we have ranged abilities! So jet charge is fine being a tank spec.

 

I also understand 8 sec of unknoackable unstunnable DPS in heavy armor can be an issue in PvP, especially for sorc, or a sniper that wasn't in cover yet.

[hulkweazel]

Stealth pretty much mean that you start the fight at the range you like. So maybe its not a gap closer per say, but it makes one less needed.

 

Sure we can say its not always possible if someone has stealth scan, but neither jumps or grapple/pull works against covered target.

 

But, as was pointed out multiple time, we have ranged abilities! So jet charge is fine being a tank spec.

 

I also understand 8 sec of unknoackable unstunnable DPS in heavy armor can be an issue in PvP, especially for sorc, or a sniper that wasn't in cover yet.

Sigh.

 

What part of "Stealth is not a gap closer" do people not understand? As much as you want to think it is, or that it "makes up for" their lack of a gap closer, it doesn't. Does it make Ops reach a target faster? Does it allow an Op to chase down a target? Does it allow an Op to get back into melee range after a knockback? That is what a gap closer does. Stealth does not. Trust me, actually try playing an Op before saying that it acts like a gap closer. It does not. It IS NOT A GAP CLOSER. /endrant

 

Yeah, you can't grapple/charge a covered target. That makes up for 2/16 of the game's classes, one of the most underplayed at that, and arguably one of the most underpowered in PvP. I hardly think that's a big deal.

[Mapex]

Sigh.

 

What part of "Stealth is not a gap closer" do people not understand? As much as you want to think it is, or that it "makes up for" their lack of a gap closer, it doesn't. Does it make Ops reach a target faster? Does it allow an Op to chase down a target? Does it allow an Op to get back into melee range after a knockback? That is what a gap closer does. Stealth does not. Trust me, actually try playing an Op before saying that it acts like a gap closer. It does not. It IS NOT A GAP CLOSER. /endrant

 

Yeah, you can't grapple/charge a covered target. That makes up for 2/16 of the game's classes, one of the most underplayed at that, and arguably one of the most underpowered in PvP. I hardly think that's a big deal.

 

What is the point of a gap closer? A gap closer lets you close distance on your enemy such that you maximize the time spent in combat in your optimal range.

 

Whether a gap closer is slow or fast, stealth or charge, or what have you doesn't matter: if it means you can get into the range you wish to fight at without taking blows to the face during your journey to your target, then the ability is a gap closer.

 

Stealth is very much a gap closer because it allows squishy stealthers to avoid taking damage as they pace towards their target, only exposing themselves once they achieve their optimal melee range. It is not an instant gap closer and requires much more effort and finesse to use correctly, but it still offers the functionality of getting into the range at which you wish to fight before an enemy has a chance to annihilate you. In-combat stealth is similarly a gap closer since it allows you, without getting your face smashed in, to get close to the Sage/Sorc who rooted you and ran away to get 35m range.

 

 

We can argue all day long about what constitues a gap closer and what does not, but the fact of the matter is that the Vanguard and Powertech are very melee-heavy classes and lacking the gap closer baseline significantly hinders PvE and PvP play. This is especially problematic for an Advanced Prototype/Tactics spec since it is the most melee-heavy of the three trees.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Mapex

[hulkweazel]

What is the point of a gap closer? A gap closer lets you close distance on your enemy such that you maximize the time spent in combat in your optimal range.

 

Whether a gap closer is slow or fast, stealth or charge, or what have you doesn't matter: if it means you can get into the range you wish to fight at without taking blows to the face during your journey to your target, then the ability is a gap closer.

 

Stealth is very much a gap closer because it allows squishy stealthers to avoid taking damage as they pace towards their target, only exposing themselves once they achieve their optimal melee range. It is not an instant gap closer and requires much more effort and finesse to use correctly, but it still offers the functionality of getting into the range at which you wish to fight before an enemy has a chance to annihilate you. In-combat stealth is similarly a gap closer since it allows you, without getting your face smashed in, to get close to the Sage/Sorc who rooted you and ran away to get 35m range.

 

 

We can argue all day long about what constitues a gap closer and what does not, but the fact of the matter is that the Vanguard and Powertech are very melee-heavy classes and lacking the gap closer baseline significantly hinders PvE and PvP play. This is especially problematic for an Advanced Prototype/Tactics spec since it is the most melee-heavy of the three trees.

The only reason we can "argue all day long" about whether stealth is a gap closer or not is because people refuse to listen to reason. Try playing an Op, even for a little bit, and then come back and say it's a gap closer. It isn't. It doesn't close any bit of distance on your opponent, and knockback or kiting limits you, stealth is only usable outside of combat (Try staying in stealth in Huttball, for example) and in combat stealth is on a 3 minute cooldown. There is a reason that every stealth class in the history of MMOs (As far as I know) has gotten some form of gap closer. If you haven't played the class, stop acting like you know what you're talking about. Play it first. Then talk.

 

As I explained earlier, PTs are hardly melee heavy. Yes, PTs work best in melee range. But we have a ton of ranged and midrange abilities as well. However, I do agree that AP is a bit limited in this department.

[verfallen]

You are talking purely PvP, and you normally snare your target out of stealth no? Why do you need to run after it?

 

What we mean, is in the opening of the fight, you open at your desired range. Warrior don't.

 

You have tons of tools in TOR to prevent your target to get away, and even then, in some cases, if your surprise attack fails you are much better off with a gap MAKER to prevent a mara from punching your face in.

 

A well played ops is already gery lethal with the tools they have. AoE stun, knockdowns, single target stun, snare. Basically, prevent kiting rather than counter it.

 

But keeping on a fight opening perspective, stealth allows you a precious first card where that jump in is unecessary.

[hulkweazel]

You are talking purely PvP, and you normally snare your target out of stealth no? Why do you need to run after it?

 

What we mean, is in the opening of the fight, you open at your desired range. Warrior don't.

 

You have tons of tools in TOR to prevent your target to get away, and even then, in some cases, if your surprise attack fails you are much better off with a gap MAKER to prevent a mara from punching your face in.

 

A well played ops is already gery lethal with the tools they have. AoE stun, knockdowns, single target stun, snare. Basically, prevent kiting rather than counter it.

 

But keeping on a fight opening perspective, stealth allows you a precious first card where that jump in is unecessary.

Just... stop... you don't know what you're talking about. You've never played the class and you're just making assumptions. Rather than try to spend pointless time trying to argue with you, I'll just link you to a thread I wrote about how Ops work: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=350138

 

tl;dr: If you consistently get owned by an Op, you are a bad player. There are very, very easy counters to anything an Op does. I say this both as a now level 50 Op and as a level 50 PT (As well as a couple more lowbie alts).

 

Point of advice: If you want to argue PTs need help, comparing it to an Op is NOT a good strategy/argument.

[Varicite]

You are talking purely PvP, and you normally snare your target out of stealth no? Why do you need to run after it?

 

What we mean, is in the opening of the fight, you open at your desired range. Warrior don't.

 

You have tons of tools in TOR to prevent your target to get away, and even then, in some cases, if your surprise attack fails you are much better off with a gap MAKER to prevent a mara from punching your face in.

 

A well played ops is already gery lethal with the tools they have. AoE stun, knockdowns, single target stun, snare. Basically, prevent kiting rather than counter it.

 

But keeping on a fight opening perspective, stealth allows you a precious first card where that jump in is unecessary.

 

Pretty much exactly why everyone calls stealth a gap-closer.

 

Every other class has to either walk up to their opponent while taking damage, or burn their gap-closer. Stealthers can circumvent this initial gap by simply walking up to their opponents in stealth.

 

Also, to Hulk, you can't talk about "omg you have more gap closers" without taking into account that different classes are different. We have a gap closer, and you have a much better escape method, because our classes operate totally differently.

 

We have to take damage while shooting people as we close the distance, while you can just walk up to people and surprise them w/ half of their health missing and very little chance of escaping you.

 

That is a very effective method of closing the initial gap.

 

Also, I'm curious. Would you also consider Shadows/Assassins to be mid-range fighters, as they also have a number of 10m range abilities, but prefer to be at 4m in order to be most effective?

Edited March 10, 2012 by Varicite

[hulkweazel]

Pretty much exactly why everyone calls stealth a gap-closer.

 

Every other class has to either walk up to their opponent while taking damage, or burn their gap-closer. Stealthers can circumvent this initial gap by simply walking up to their opponents in stealth.

 

Also, to Hulk, you can't talk about "omg you have more gap closers" without taking into account that different classes are different. We have a gap closer, and you have a much better escape method, because our classes operate totally differently.

 

We have to take damage while shooting people as we close the distance, while you can just walk up to people and surprise them w/ half of their health missing and very little chance of escaping you.

 

That is a very effective method of closing the initial gap.

 

Also, I'm curious. Would you also consider Shadows/Assassins to be mid-range fighters, as they also have a number of 10m range abilities, but prefer to be at 4m in order to be most effective?

Can you guys please drop this argument? You guys haven't played the class and are just making assumptions that are incorrect. At the very least, read the thread I linked. If you're letting an Op open up on you on a consistent basis, chances are, you're doing something wrong (ie. standing in one place, trying to 1v1 other people, etc). Good players will not get beat by an Op. Besides that, trying to compare gap closing options between a PT and an Op is quite possibly the worst way to support your arguments. I have no idea why you guys are even trying.

 

In my experience playing a Shadow, Kinetic/Infiltration = melee, Balance is hybrid. Only really tried Infiltration, and the ONLY way to really get it to work is from melee range since you need melee abilities to proc the midrange abilities. Not to mention, they only have a couple ranged abilities on cooldowns so it's not something you can rely on. I don't know much about the other two branches so I can't speak for them (Please notice how I'm not making random guesses about how it works... you guys can learn from that).

Edited March 10, 2012 by hulkweazel

[Varicite]

Can you guys please drop this argument? You guys haven't played the class and are just making assumptions that are incorrect. At the very least, read the thread I linked. If you're letting an Op open up on you on a consistent basis, chances are, you're doing something wrong (ie. standing in one place, trying to 1v1 other people, etc). Good players will not get beat by an Op. Besides that, trying to compare gap closing options between a PT and an Op is quite possibly the worst way to support your arguments. I have no idea why you guys are even trying.

 

In my experience playing a Shadow, Kinetic/Infiltration = melee, Balance is hybrid. Only really tried Infiltration, and the ONLY way to really get it to work is from melee range since you need melee abilities to proc the midrange abilities. Not to mention, they only have a couple ranged abilities on cooldowns so it's not something you can rely on. I don't know much about the other two branches so I can't speak for them (Please notice how I'm not making random guesses about how it works... you guys can learn from that).

 

No one was even talking about being beaten by an Op at all, we were discussing why stealth is called a gap closer (because it is used to close a gap initially, and after a vanish if necessary). A point that you brought up initially, if I recall.

 

You're going off on some strange tangents here. I don't think anyone even mentioned a PT vs Ops fight, so I'm not really sure what you're talking about.

[Agooz]

What is the point of a gap closer? A gap closer lets you close distance on your enemy such that you maximize the time spent in combat in your optimal range.

 

Whether a gap closer is slow or fast, stealth or charge, or what have you doesn't matter: if it means you can get into the range you wish to fight at without taking blows to the face during your journey to your target, then the ability is a gap closer.

 

Stealth is very much a gap closer because it allows squishy stealthers to avoid taking damage as they pace towards their target, only exposing themselves once they achieve their optimal melee range. It is not an instant gap closer and requires much more effort and finesse to use correctly, but it still offers the functionality of getting into the range at which you wish to fight before an enemy has a chance to annihilate you. In-combat stealth is similarly a gap closer since it allows you, without getting your face smashed in, to get close to the Sage/Sorc who rooted you and ran away to get 35m range.

 

 

We can argue all day long about what constitues a gap closer and what does not, but the fact of the matter is that the Vanguard and Powertech are very melee-heavy classes and lacking the gap closer baseline significantly hinders PvE and PvP play. This is especially problematic for an Advanced Prototype/Tactics spec since it is the most melee-heavy of the three trees.

 

I am sorry, Stealth is NOT a gap closer. It is a first initiative ability. When you have someone about to score in huttball, I never once seen a stealther save it with Stealth. When you have a player use speed boost, I dont see stealth doing a thing for you. When you have a player on a higher platform and getting towards the goal, stealth? lol. When someone is about to tap an objective and you are 100m away and you try to stop them, using stealth instead of ANY range ability to interrupt just lost you the objective. Hec my electro dart is more of a gap closer than stealth!

 

The fact of the matter a PT is NOT very melee heavy. Honestly everytime someone says the opposite, it clearly shows they do not know what they are talking about. Except maybe those experimental and hopeful players who insist that there is merit in the AP tree, and even then, in comparison to warriors, we are not very heavy melee.

 

PT due to lack of gap closers are hindered in PvE and PvP? You serious? PvP? I guess frequently being 1st in dmg, medals, etc.. is just a fluke. 492k dmg +11medals queuing as Solo in a WZ shouldnt complain about a single thing (and that's with T2 Pve gear).

PvE? yea we are very hindered! Especially when I can spec hybrid with only 21 points in shield tech, put on FULL dps gear, just switch to shield generator, and tank any HM FP.

 

If you have a 50 PT, semi-decently geared, in heavy pyro tree for more than 48hours, and still complain that the class in general has issues, then the problem is CLEARLY not the class.

[verfallen]

No one was even talking about being beaten by an Op at all, we were discussing why stealth is called a gap closer (because it is used to close a gap initially, and after a vanish if necessary). A point that you brought up initially, if I recall.

 

You're going off on some strange tangents here. I don't think anyone even mentioned a PT vs Ops fight, so I'm not really sure what you're talking about.

 

Meh I'll just ignore him. He obviously is so sure he is right and is the only one with a valid opinion, he never even realized that what was said is stealth reduce the need for one, not that it was one. There is no point to argue with someone who, when he realize his argument was countered, change what it was about to be right.

 

As far as sin go, its definitely melee. They are built around shock to a certain point, but most hard hitter are melee. Deception sin is also built around thrash/voltaic slash boosting shock effectiveness, damage wise and cost wise, and always ready for Maul proc.

 

You do get better range effectiveness at 10m than a warrior does, but far from what the PT does.

[hulkweazel]

I am sorry, Stealth is NOT a gap closer. It is a first initiative ability. When you have someone about to score in huttball, I never once seen a stealther save it with Stealth. When you have a player use speed boost, I dont see stealth doing a thing for you. When you have a player on a higher platform and getting towards the goal, stealth? lol. When someone is about to tap an objective and you are 100m away and you try to stop them, using stealth instead of ANY range ability to interrupt just lost you the objective. Hec my electro dart is more of a gap closer than stealth!

 

The fact of the matter a PT is NOT very melee heavy. Honestly everytime someone says the opposite, it clearly shows they do not know what they are talking about. Except maybe those experimental and hopeful players who insist that there is merit in the AP tree, and even then, in comparison to warriors, we are not very heavy melee.

 

PT due to lack of gap closers are hindered in PvE and PvP? You serious? PvP? I guess frequently being 1st in dmg, medals, etc.. is just a fluke. 492k dmg +11medals queuing as Solo in a WZ shouldnt complain about a single thing (and that's with T2 Pve gear).

PvE? yea we are very hindered! Especially when I can spec hybrid with only 21 points in shield tech, put on FULL dps gear, just switch to shield generator, and tank any HM FP.

 

If you have a 50 PT, semi-decently geared, in heavy pyro tree for more than 48hours, and still complain that the class in general has issues, then the problem is CLEARLY not the class.

^ This.

 

If you guys are still trying to argue about this stuff, then all hope is lost.

 

Yeah, clearly you know more about Operatives than someone who actually plays the class

[Mapex]

Can we please bring the topic back to PTs needing a charge baseline? I still have no idea why we have an Operative spouting off in a PT thread; you can discuss Op issues in the Op forum.

 

Again, the PT has no means to close distance at all to fight at his optimal range without speccing into Shieldtech. PyroTech has some decent ranged capability because its talents improve ranged abilities, but even then you'd rather apply CGC + snare with Flame Burst and not the self-rooting Unload. Advanced Prototype is purely a melee fighter - his >10m range attacks do terribly low damage - and lacks a gap closer completely, which is doubly bad because he isn't tanky at all so he takes quite a bit of damage as he tries to close in. Playing an AP is like playing a stealth character without stealth or escape maneuvers.

 

The problems with Grapple being a "gap closer" are that the cooldown is high, it only works on one target (AP ideally likes to unleash a stacked Flame Thrower on multiple targets; talking both PvE and PvP here), and of course it doesn't work on a target who has maxed out their Resolve. Pull mechanics in this game are also fairly bug-ridden where enemies fly too high vertically and end up landing on a higher platform or hitting the ceiling with their head and not moving anywhere.

 

If Jet Charge cannot be made baseline for whatever reason, then it needs to be an AP ability and Shieldtech needs to be changed to be more of the ranged tank it was originally supposed to be (so that it no longer needs the Charge). Alternatively AP can be more of a ranged fighter as well, but then the three specs would become very similar in play.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Mapex

[hulkweazel]

Can we please bring the topic back to PTs needing a charge baseline? I still have no idea why we have an Operative spouting off in a PT thread; you can discuss Op issues in the Op forum.

Because newsflash, I might have more than one character? Sorry I got carried away with this - I just get annoyed when people try talking about something that they clearly don't know about.

 

I'm still not convinced Pyrotech needs a gap closer, but I agree that AP certainly does.

Edited March 10, 2012 by hulkweazel

[verfallen]

Can we please bring the topic back to PTs needing a charge baseline? I still have no idea why we have an Operative spouting off in a PT thread; you can discuss Op issues in the Op forum.

 

Again, the PT has no means to close distance at all to fight at his optimal range without speccing into Shieldtech. PyroTech has some decent ranged capability because its talents improve ranged abilities, but even then you'd rather apply CGC + snare with Flame Burst and not the self-rooting Unload. Advanced Prototype is purely a melee fighter - his >10m range attacks do terribly low damage - and lacks a gap closer completely, which is doubly bad because he isn't tanky at all so he takes quite a bit of damage as he tries to close in. Playing an AP is like playing a stealth character without stealth or escape maneuvers.

 

The problems with Grapple being a "gap closer" are that the cooldown is high, it only works on one target (AP ideally likes to unleash a stacked Flame Thrower on multiple targets; talking both PvE and PvP here), and of course it doesn't work on a target who has maxed out their Resolve. Pull mechanics in this game are also fairly bug-ridden where enemies fly too high vertically and end up landing on a higher platform or hitting the ceiling with their head and not moving anywhere.

 

If Jet Charge cannot be made baseline for whatever reason, then it needs to be an AP ability and Shieldtech needs to be changed to be more of the ranged tank it was originally supposed to be (so that it no longer needs the Charge). Alternatively AP can be more of a ranged fighter as well, but then the three specs would become very similar in play.

 

Tanking mechanic pretty much need you into melee range.

 

You overlooked the issue with hydraulic override, and now saying AP needs that ability and that he one spec that do need to get into melee range in PvE should lose it?

 

A root insta close coupled with a 8 sec boss immunity style ability sounds a bit of an issue, wouldn't you agree?

 

Grapple doesn't root unless you got the Shield spec ability for it, which ensure you can be KB.

 

While countering kiting is a point, allowing ranged class to have their tools to keep their range is also important.

 

You could switch Hydraulic Override and jet charge I suppose. But I fear it would then make the Shield spec a bit too sturdy.

[Varicite]

Meh I'll just ignore him. He obviously is so sure he is right and is the only one with a valid opinion, he never even realized that what was said is stealth reduce the need for one, not that it was one. There is no point to argue with someone who, when he realize his argument was countered, change what it was about to be right.

 

As far as sin go, its definitely melee. They are built around shock to a certain point, but most hard hitter are melee. Deception sin is also built around thrash/voltaic slash boosting shock effectiveness, damage wise and cost wise, and always ready for Maul proc.

 

You do get better range effectiveness at 10m than a warrior does, but far from what the PT does.

 

I'm not really sure where you drew any of that from what I said. I stated that stealth could be considered a gap closer because it's used to close the initial gap, whereas other classes have to burn their gap closer or walk up to an enemy. I don't think there was any straying of my argument. You were simply talking about a mechanic to get back onto an enemy after an engagement has begun, and I was talking about a broader sense, and if you were talking specifically about getting back onto an enemy, then forgive me for taking what was said out of context.

 

Anyway, to get back to the topic, I do think that PT has enough ranged abilities to fill the gaps when they have to get back into the 10m range (even if I don't consider it a ranged class), that Jet Charge isn't really a necessary tool for all specs.

 

We already have an interrupt, and Grapple is much more than a simple gap closer, as it's the only tool we have that can disrupt enemy positioning, which helps immensely for weakening a group. I'd hate to trade it for something that puts me more directly into harms way (as a dps), rather than putting an enemy right in the middle of my group's melees.

 

I will say that it's nice for Huttball, though. : P