LiamJones Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 and apparently Bioware has no inclination to change that. Is it better to just abandon the idea of being a tank in PvP and just respec and gear to be a Focus Guardian instead? As a Defense/Tank, I give up all of my damage for stats that mean nothing in PvP with no added HP or Sorcerer/Operative resistance. It seems like it would be in my best interest to just boost my damage dealing capabilities to scrap it out and actually have a chance to kill someone. This is a legitimate question not a QQ about how JK's are underpowered or whatever. I just don't see a reason to be "Tank" spec'd in PvP with no benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vid-szhite Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 (edited) and apparently Bioware has no inclination to change that. Is it better to just abandon the idea of being a tank in PvP and just respec and gear to be a Focus Guardian instead? As a Defense/Tank, I give up all of my damage for stats that mean nothing in PvP with no added HP or Sorcerer/Operative resistance. It seems like it would be in my best interest to just boost my damage dealing capabilities to scrap it out and actually have a chance to kill someone. This is a legitimate question not a QQ about how JK's are underpowered or whatever. I just don't see a reason to be "Tank" spec'd in PvP with no benefits. The devs did say at the guild summit they wanted to eventually bring the stats in line, but it was a long testing process because they wanted to make sure ALL types of defense worked equally well, so that people with high reliance on Defense wouldn't be made useless if players stacked accuracy, and people with high Shields wouldn't be made useless if players stacked Crit. This is important, since many classes that use Yellow Number attacks have talents that buff accuracy and crit chance of said abilities. Yes, the solution now is just to make them both equally useless, but they'll come around eventually. For now, though? Probably should respec. P.S. Armor is not useless in PvP - Armor is the only defense that even works in PvP. SHIELDS and Defense are what don't work against Yellow numbers. Edited March 6, 2012 by Vid-szhite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxBrohamxx Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I'm wildly successful as a PvP tank. I run a Vigilance dps spec, and a Defense "Bodyguard" spec.. no complaints with either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
origamikitsune Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 For what it is worth, my experience as a tank in PvP has been quite the opposite. That said, it is probably more of a play style preference on my part that makes it fun for me. Don't know if you would see it that way or not, and certainly don't mean to imply your way of playing is any less valid. I know that I am pretty much worthless at fighting, so I don't try to per se. What I do is find a sage, guard them, and stick to them like glue. When someone tries to jump them, I force stasis, force push, awe, etc. I spam my freeze and taunts. I use Force Leap to cover ground to prevent caps, and I use Guardian leap to def up people near death. Dispatch is a great tool for getting that near-death Assassin or Sorc to face plant - freeing up my DPS to do what they do. It isn't traditional tanking because I can't "force" the player to look at me. BUT... I can become so annoying doing all this that four or five of them all try to kill me. I get a perverse glee when I pop my defense buffs and adrenals, and run like a little !@#$ with five of the opposing players following me around the corner (pro tip, don't follow, aka, it's a trap!)... leaving that turret and/or door free for those eight valuable seconds. Doesn't always work, but when it does, it cracks me up. Silly tunnel visioned Imps! Even good players fall for it from time to time (we all have off days, right?) Don't get a lot of kills. Die more than other people. But hey, I'm a tank, right? Its what I do. I get my medals, I get my valor. Its all good fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiamJones Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 I don't mind the bodyguard role exactly, but I'm on a server that is imbalanced to imps (like 99% of them) and they are severely overloaded with sorcs that shred me. Every (and I do mean literally EVERY) wz has 4+ sorcs and healer or not, we get lightning fried. The main problem comes in when we have no healers or we're against a group that knows how to focus. I aoe taunt, single taunt, leap, guard...all the good stuff that I'm supposed to do, but I don't get much of an HP boost while I'm expected to also take 50% of another player's damage. I enjoy seeing my Protector Medals and Paladin, etc, but my problem is that even 1 v 1 I don't last any longer than the average player unless I use all of my CDs and by then I still can't kill an equally geared player. Tech and Force shred me and even BH and Marauders can be tough at times unless they're badly geared. There shouldn't be a class that's solely reliant on having a healer to be viable. I should at least be a pain to kill even I hit like a girl. I'm Valor Rank 50 and pretty much full Champ gear. I think when I hit BM that I'll just get dps gear and go on a rampage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapuchinSeven Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Saying armour is useless in PVP is just pure junk, outside of stamina it IS your defence in PVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiamJones Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 Obviously, you know nothing about PvP. Expertise is your main stat. Armor provides no mitigation from Tech (ya know, those operative rogues that stun lock you to death) or Force (all that sweet lightning) and only defends against Energy and Kinetic (which mostly applies to JKs), so thanks for being wrong. You'll notice that most dmg is internal or elemental. If the Combat Log works even remotely well, you'll notice all of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aarka Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Obviously, you know nothing about PvP. Expertise is your main stat. Armor provides no mitigation from Tech (ya know, those operative rogues that stun lock you to death) or Force (all that sweet lightning) and only defends against Energy and Kinetic (which mostly applies to JKs), so thanks for being wrong. You'll notice that most dmg is internal or elemental. If the Combat Log works even remotely well, you'll notice all of this. Oh my. Someone is confused. I think you have shield mechanics and armor mixed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EzoEo Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Obviously, you know nothing about PvP. Expertise is your main stat. Armor provides no mitigation from Tech (ya know, those operative rogues that stun lock you to death) or Force (all that sweet lightning) and only defends against Energy and Kinetic (which mostly applies to JKs), so thanks for being wrong. You'll notice that most dmg is internal or elemental. If the Combat Log works even remotely well, you'll notice all of this. Expertise is the main stat but the armor provides endurance, crit and so on. But feel free to run around nudey in WZ's and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiamJones Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 Wow, you're even slower than I previously expected. Armor...as in Armor Value. *facepalm* Why on earth would you think the question was between wearing gear and being naked...seriously. Oh my. Someone is confused. I think you have shield mechanics and armor mixed up. Nope. Mouse over your Armor Value and read. It's not Rocket Science... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalmeseReb Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Wow, you're even slower than I previously expected. Armor...as in Armor Value. *facepalm* Why on earth would you think the question was between wearing gear and being naked...seriously. Nope. Mouse over your Armor Value and read. It's not Rocket Science... armor mitigates kinetic and energy attacks... force powers are kinetic/energy. Operative knife attacks are kinetic... all attacks are mitigated except for those that deal internal/elemental damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolved_Monky Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I thought it did all damage... But internal/elemental are just DOTs right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aarka Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) Wow, you're even slower than I previously expected. Armor...as in Armor Value. *facepalm* Why on earth would you think the question was between wearing gear and being naked...seriously. Nope. Mouse over your Armor Value and read. It's not Rocket Science... Sigh.. apparently it is rocket science for you. I'm really not trying to be an *** here but you are straight up wrong. Tech and force attacks are completely mitigated by your armor value. So your example of the operative spamming tech on you is just wrong. If you looked at the armor tooltip as you have suggested I do, you will see that the only 2 damage types not mitigated by armor are elemental and internal. If you are talking about shield chance then yes, you have some points. Tech and force damage are not blockable. Making shield related talents perform under par in PvP. That being said, just equipping a shield and using your tanking stance gives a passive boost to your armor value, which is why tanks run around in PvP using shields. Edited March 7, 2012 by aarka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BanzaiChigau Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Well i assume something is going to change regarding this issue since Georg Zoeller said at the guild summit that tanks are not going to get away with using dps gear and tank specs when 1.2 comes out and we're doing rated warzones. As of right now, he also said that by using dps gear tanks are just giving away the option to mitigate a big portion of the damage the two current top damage specs do, sentinels/marauders and gunslingers/snipers. Those were his words, anyone who watched the livestream saw it, i know i did because he was asked about this precise issue. I would love to be able to deal decent damage as a tank specced character in tank gear right now, but we know it's not the best option for now, wether they intend to change this or not is still not clear, anyway, so for now i'm just doing what every other tank does, i have a tank set with dps mods and i saved the tank mods in my bank, just in case... In small battles i think wearing dps gear as a tank is far superior right now because we can still do some meaningful damage while not being as high as that of a dps class, and we can still guard and do our job as tanks. For big scale battles like Ilum ops, using high endurance gear and mods with endurance stim is better i believe, since the damage taken there is a lot higher and our job is to push forward while our group selects targets and destroys them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapuchinSeven Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) Obviously, you know nothing about PvP. Nothing you've said here changes anything said about armour. You're like a car stuck in the mud and spinning its wheels, saying a lot of things but not really changing much. Juuust to make sure that anyone that did think about listening to you is now fully aware you don't know what you're talking about... Force (all that sweet lightning). ENERGY damage. Mitigated by your armour. http://www.torhead.com/ability/gakL3P4/forcequake http://www.torhead.com/ability/7eXKWUa/force-storm http://www.torhead.com/ability/83SVVJQ/lightning-strike no mitigation from Tech (ya know, those operative rogues that stun lock you to death). ENERGY and KINETIC damage . Mitigated by your armour. http://www.torhead.com/ability/eEqrPpt/hidden-strike http://www.torhead.com/ability/7R6XkF3/laceration http://www.torhead.com/ability/bLxkw1J/backstab so thanks for being wrong. You don't actually understand what force and tech is. Edited March 7, 2012 by CapuchinSeven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiamJones Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 I honestly don't know why I'm bothering to reply. I was warned away from these forums by everyone and now I see why. I'm not going to bother linking you the pages of information on this but I suggest you do some digging on Google or in this very thread and learn more about what's going on with tanks. Not to mention that shielding is useless with the stacking of Crit that Sorcs do since they don't have to balance accuracy at all. You do realize that most if not all of the PvP sorcs are Madness/DoT spec'd as well which is heavy on...oh yeah, internal unmitigated damage. Regardless of what you think the tooltip says, on the bioware panel they themselves said that Sorcerer damage bypassed armor...from the horses mouth son. So you'll forgive me if I don't take any advice from the guy who thought the plan was to run around without any gear on. (We had a REALLY good laugh about that in Ventrilo btw.) I know you're probably butthurt and dying to reply but I won't be checking back on this thread again so it will really just be for your own peace of mind. The question was whether I should bother being a Tank in PvP or just go DPS. It was answered and I will be purchasing my BM Vindicator set and rolling as DPS in the future. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redderic Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 as a tank shadow that has taken ever shield mod out and completely stacked defense i have to say that people that claim that defense is broken in pvp have no idea what they are talking about. im not sure exactly what the number is but i know for sure it is over 29% defense chance which means that people would have to get to 129% accuracy to null out my defense which doesnt happen. most people dont go over 108%. i dodge and evade attacks so much in pvp its rather funny. snipers/gunslinger have no chance at all since even when they do hit me my armor mitigates almost half of the dmg. i simply wish i was able to actually resist more often but ill take being able to go 1v4 against most people and be perfectly happy with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapuchinSeven Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I know you're probably butthurt and dying to reply but I won't be checking back on this thread again so it will really just be for your own peace of mind. You're a dumb ***. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isast Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 did anyone else just see liam get completely owned? i did, and it was glorious. i take real pleasure when someone is an ******e to everyone else, then gets proven flat-out wrong. kinda made my day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoidJustice Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) Armor Armor rating (or AR, or sometimes just armor) is a statistic that decreases kinetic and energy damage dealt to a character. Defense Rating Increases parry and deflect rates. Deflect is simply parry for ranged attacks. Shield Increases the chance for your shield to become active during an attack. Absorption Increases the strength of your shield, allowing it to absorb more damage. Armor is a frebie for us Guardians, we get heavy armor and there is no trade offs, you want as much as you can get. Armor mitigates most damage with the exception of internal. Only run Wz naked if your a hot chick Jedi Defense isn't bad as it can cause any attack to completely miss but it is offset by accuracy and in general, were not dodge tanks... doesn't really seem effective in Pvp... I've never really tested it myself thou... Running a "REAL" shield vs a melee enhancemer means losing a bunch of Str, End, Crit, Surg, Pow and investing more points that could be spent in Str, End, Crit, Surg, Pow in 2 stats that have a "Chance" to mitigate some damage if the Shield procs... If BW changes the absorbtion and shield chance significantly this may change but, Shields takel 2 extra stats that only mitigate... sometimes, you'd be better off just throwing everything into Defence and trying to become a dodge tank as it's only 1 skill to mitigate damage sometimes, so same basic effect and only 1 stat sink. TL;DR Shields are great in PVE bad bad bad in PVP (cause if your tanking for a group your DPS doesn't matter much). In PVP run a melee generator instead and reprioritize your Def/Shield stats to Str, End, Crit, Surg, Pow if Vig... or Str, End, Surg, Pow, Crit if Focus. If you MUST run defensively in PVP ignore the Shield and Absorbe and go straight to Defence as it's 1 stat vs 2 stats for the same wonky RND mitigation. p.s. Guys lets have a better community here... and not just bash people.. mmmmm-k? Edited March 7, 2012 by VoidJustice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverRose Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) Sorry for being a necromancer, but it's even easier if you play Shadow/Sin... Just pay attention to your kinetic ward buff in PvP (it has 8 stacks), and see for yourself how many times do you actually shield an attack... (hint: I think I've never depleted 8 stacks of KW before the timer of 12 seconds run out). Edited May 25, 2012 by NeverRose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darh_halo Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 Armor If you MUST run defensively in PVP ignore the Shield and Absorbe and go straight to Defence as it's 1 stat vs 2 stats for the same wonky RND mitigation. Bro, you are forgetting about diminishing return from stacking points.. U may want to stop investing defense at some point then allocate to shield/absorb ratio OR to damage. just my 2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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