Scoundrel needs a buff/adjustment

[Keyran-Halcyon]

Before anyone posts something stupid about learn to play or the "I play scoundrel and I do just fine" comments, please read the post.

 

For the most part I think scoundrel, at least as far as scrapper and sawbones are concerned is a pretty balanced class. Burst Dps is still awesome, even post nerf. The suggestions I have come more from my experiences as a healer. Don't get me worng again, healing is awesome on scoundrel, just needs adjustments mainly. Here are my observations. If you agree please post comments or suggestions. I am hoping we might get our smuggler community around some of these changes and get BW to listen. Ya ya, I know, fat chance they will, but worth a shot.

 

-Defensive screen needs to have its cool down reduced to equal sage/sorcs bubble. Or the damage mitigation increased to make it worth the 45sec cd. ideally it would get a cd reduction AND a damage mitigation increase.

 

-Dodge needs to be adjusted to make it more viable for PvP, right now the best it gives is a 20% speed boost IF specced. I think it should be switched to always be a speed burst and if specced give additional speed. Currently I don't think it helps avoid any incoming damage for pvp.

 

-Kolto cloud needs to be increased to match sage/sorc aoe heal, as well as increse the number of affected targets. As is, it is worthless, only healing 4 people for a 1-2k over time. and the amount of energy it costs makes it even worse.

 

-Diagnostic scan should be more of a small hot or something to balance it with the merc/mando free heal they get from their support cylinder. As is, a 3 sec cast time makes it useless in pvp, except to fake heals to get people to use their interrupt.

 

-Escape I think should have a buff that prevents movement impairing affects for a certian time. Almost all mmo's have an immunity built into this type of ability, so why swtor didn't makes no sense to me. I know we have resolve, but that has no affect on roots/snares. So adding this would help prevent snare/root locks. I think all classes should get this, however it would need adjustment for huttball with all the force running.

 

Thats about all i think needs buffed or adjusted for scoundrel. With those improvements we would have some more utility and survivability to bring us on par with other classes. not that we are set so far back, but just need a little boost.

 

Anyways, what do you other smugglers think?

[shaggscoob]

I'm not 100% on the other abilities, as I don't have as much experience in PvP as others, but I would definitely agree with Kolto Cloud. That is a huge waste of a treetop ability.

[vartius]

Good ideas on Kolto Cloud and it is set to get a boost in 1.2. Maybe a long channeling time on Diagostic Scan to have it closer to Commando ability but can end it if needed?

 

I don't think that the speed increase is enough on Dodge spec ability or it isn't working. Like a base 30% and up to 50% would make it of more use.

Edited March 6, 2012 by vartius

[Azaranth]

-Defensive screen needs to have its cool down reduced to equal sage/sorcs bubble. Or the damage mitigation increased to make it worth the 45sec cd. ideally it would get a cd reduction AND a damage mitigation increase.

 

If you're full sawbones spec, you hit a point where you have 2 points left to spend and nothing good to spend them on. I highly recommend the talents that make your defense screens buff incoming healing by 15%. It's really nice.

 

Take the Soa fight, for example. Popping your defense screen before eating a lightning ball helps quite a bit, as you can stack two SMRPs on yourself as you run to intercept it. With the reduced damage and bonus healing, you shouldn't need anything better. Same is true when you want to pop some of those explody droids during the Fabricator fight.

 

I'm not saying these talents are kick ***. Just saying there's the least bad of the bunch, and it does make me appreciate Defense Screen more.

 

-Dodge needs to be adjusted to make it more viable for PvP, right now the best it gives is a 20% speed boost IF specced. I think it should be switched to always be a speed burst and if specced give additional speed. Currently I don't think it helps avoid any incoming damage for pvp.

 

Dodge is dumb. I wish they'd just build the debuff cleansing into Disappearing Act and free up the extra hotkey, because that's the only thing I use it for.

 

-Kolto cloud needs to be increased to match sage/sorc aoe heal, as well as increse the number of affected targets. As is, it is worthless, only healing 4 people for a 1-2k over time. and the amount of energy it costs makes it even worse.

 

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Kolto Cloud is instant cast, (aka, castable on the run), and castable from range. Making the healing match the Sage heal makes no sense. Kolto Cloud is easier to cast, and more versitile. To balance, the Sage heal hits harder and (potentially) affects more targets.

 

They've announced changes coming to Kolto Cloud. We'll see if it's anything more than front-loading the heal, but even as it stands, Kolto Cloud is an incredibly useful healing tool.

 

To be clear, I'm not saying some buffs wouldn't be nice. I'm just saying that there's no way that our mobile, instant cast, range targettable heal can match the total HPS of a long casting time, stationairy heal. Apples and Oranges.

 

One last note: I use Kolto Cloud in PVP way more than I see sages use the puddle. Casting time and range are a bfd.

 

-Diagnostic scan should be more of a small hot or something to balance it with the merc/mando free heal they get from their support cylinder. As is, a 3 sec cast time makes it useless in pvp, except to fake heals to get people to use their interrupt.

 

Stop comparing classes that are significantly different. Their basic heal is better than our basic heal. Our 31pt skill heal is way better than theirs is. It's apples and oranges, and these direct comparisons don't matter one bit.

 

-Escape I think should have a buff that prevents movement impairing affects for a certian time. Almost all mmo's have an immunity built into this type of ability, so why swtor didn't makes no sense to me. I know we have resolve, but that has no affect on roots/snares. So adding this would help prevent snare/root locks. I think all classes should get this, however it would need adjustment for huttball with all the force running.

 

Boy, that would break huttball.

 

This isn't really a Scoundrel concern. They did hint that all classes are going to get some sort of short duration sprint ability (Rocket Boots!) come patch 1.2, via the legacy system. That'll help level the playing field a bit.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Azaranth

[Omeleet]

If you're full sawbones spec, you hit a point where you have 2 points left to spend and nothing good to spend them on. I highly recommend the talents that make your defense screens buff incoming healing by 15%. It's really nice.

 

Take the Soa fight, for example. Popping your defense screen before eating a lightning ball helps quite a bit, as you can stack two SMRPs on yourself as you run to intercept it. With the reduced damage and bonus healing, you shouldn't need anything better. Same is true when you want to pop some of those explody droids during the Fabricator fight.

 

I'm not saying these talents are kick ***. Just saying there's the least bad of the bunch, and it does make me appreciate Defense Screen more.

 

I don't follow, you are saying you should put up Defense Screen, take a bunch of damage so Defense Screen wears off, and then heal? You realize you lose the bonus 15% heals as soon as Defense Screen comes off right? It is far less useful than the 4% damage mitigation which is ALWAYS applied, doesn't have to be babysat and isn't situational.

 

 

 

Dodge is dumb. I wish they'd just build the debuff cleansing into Disappearing Act and free up the extra hotkey, because that's the only thing I use it for.

 

Then we would be down potentially 2 extra uses of dodge. You clearly don't pvp, and if you do you have some places you can improve.

 

 

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Kolto Cloud is instant cast, (aka, castable on the run), and castable from range. Making the healing match the Sage heal makes no sense. Kolto Cloud is easier to cast, and more versitile. To balance, the Sage heal hits harder and (potentially) affects more targets.

 

They've announced changes coming to Kolto Cloud. We'll see if it's anything more than front-loading the heal, but even as it stands, Kolto Cloud is an incredibly useful healing tool.

 

To be clear, I'm not saying some buffs wouldn't be nice. I'm just saying that there's no way that our mobile, instant cast, range targettable heal can match the total HPS of a long casting time, stationairy heal. Apples and Oranges.

 

 

One last note: I use Kolto Cloud in PVP way more than I see sages use the puddle. Casting time and range are a bfd.

 

2 seconds is not a big deal. The GCD is 1.5 seconds. To cast Salvation you are effectively losing .5 seconds for a heal that is relatively speaking, cheaper and more effective than the Scoundrel one.

 

That being said I don't think Kolto Cloud is terrible right now, just not amazing either. It is just a tool and it has its place. The front loaded change will make it much more useful.

 

 

Stop comparing classes that are significantly different. Their basic heal is better than our basic heal. Our 31pt skill heal is way better than theirs is. It's apples and oranges, and these direct comparisons don't matter one bit.

 

Either take your own advice or don't give it here please. All of these skills have their place.

 

Boy, that would break huttball.

 

This isn't really a Scoundrel concern. They did hint that all classes are going to get some sort of short duration sprint ability (Rocket Boots!) come patch 1.2, via the legacy system. That'll help level the playing field a bit.

 

A root break would not make Scoundrels overpowered in Huttball, clearly you haven't seen 4 sages chain pull a ball handler to the goal, after the ball handler, who happens to be a guardian, charges halfway across the map.

 

Also about this speed boost, they implied that the legacy stuff would not be useable in pvp. Granted I wasn't paying close enough attention to the rocket boots portion to say that with 100% confidence.

[Azaranth]

I don't follow, you are saying you should put up Defense Screen, take a bunch of damage so Defense Screen wears off, and then heal? You realize you lose the bonus 15% heals as soon as Defense Screen comes off right? It is far less useful than the 4% damage mitigation which is ALWAYS applied, doesn't have to be babysat and isn't situational.

 

Yup. I'm saying it's a good skill. My defense screen soaks about 2500 damage, and the bonus healing is a better side effect than the alternatives (Scramble, Sedatives, or Flash Powder)

 

2 seconds (of immobile casting time) is not a big deal.

 

You clearly don't pvp, and if you do you have some places you can improve.

 

Either take your own advice or don't give it here please. All of these skills have their place.

 

This reply makes no sense.

 

A root break would not make Scoundrels overpowered in Huttball, clearly you haven't seen 4 sages chain pull a ball handler to the goal, after the ball handler, who happens to be a guardian, charges halfway across the map.

 

Am I mistaken, or aren't the CC break abilities the same across all classes? A root break might not break Scoundrel, but it would definitely break Sages.

 

During the panel yesterday, the specifically enumerated the movement stuff from the legacy tree as being PVP usable. Only the cross-class legacy powers are going to be gated behind the Heroic Moment skills.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Azaranth

[Omeleet]

Yup. I'm saying it's a good skill. My defense screen soaks about 2500 damage, and the bonus healing is a better side effect than the alternatives (Scramble, Sedatives, or Flash Powder)

 

Meh, I am a fan of Dirty Escape for more maneuverability and an extra CC in PVP, if you are trying to min-max in PVE then I suppose it is an acceptable choice. Albeit a highly situational one. I don't really have a big problem with Defense Screen as it is free. It is certainly not ideal but a free 2k health extension is fine with me.

 

You clearly don't pvp, and if you do you have some places you can improve.

 

I was talking about it from a PVE perspective. In a PVP perspective it is a highly situational heal. I am not a fan of Kolto Cloud in PVP either, but that has more to do with the fact I feel like it is meter padding and an ineffective heal if you don't have another healer carrying your slack.

 

This reply makes no sense.

 

You told someone not to compare apples to oranges and then you compared the commando heal which is free but cannot be self cast, to the scoundrel heal which is a free 3 second channel and regenerates energy. You did it again with Kolto Cloud and Bacta Infusion, one which is an AoE and one that is awesome for triage on low health targets. Apples to Oranges.

 

Am I mistaken, or aren't the CC break abilities the same across all classes? A root break might not break Scoundrel, but it would definitely break Sages.

 

During the panel yesterday, the specifically enumerated the movement stuff from the legacy tree as being PVP usable. Only the cross-class legacy powers are going to be gated behind the Heroic Moment skills.

 

I probably should have reread the OP's comment about freedom and giving snare immunity to all classes. Still, snares or no snare to make a comment that implied Huttball is balanced even slightly is laughable. I missed the PVP/Legacy portions of the panel so forgive me for speaking out of turn on that part.

 

There it is.

[Azaranth]

You told someone not to compare apples to oranges and then you compared the commando heal which is free but cannot be self cast, to the scoundrel heal which is a free 3 second channel and regenerates energy. You did it again with Kolto Cloud and Bacta Infusion, one which is an AoE and one that is awesome for triage on low health targets. Apples to Oranges.

 

You and I agree on this. I was citing the comparison between Emergency Medpack and the Support Cylinder as an example of how ludicrous it is to compare dissimilar abilities across classes.

 

I realize now that I could have worded that to be more clear and to avoid confusion.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Azaranth

[Keyran-Halcyon]

Stop comparing classes that are significantly different. Their basic heal is better than our basic heal. Our 31pt skill heal is way better than theirs is. It's apples and oranges, and these direct comparisons don't matter one bit.

 

First off, how is comparing one healing class to another considered apples and oranges? If you want to be more correct it could be like comparing red apples to green apples, but not oranges. I am comparing healing between a few classes and trying to make adjustments to scoundrel to improve it. I was merely saying I wished our free heal (diagnostic scan) was more instant like the merc/mando. I guess that can be countered with our specced free heal, emergency med pack. So it doesn't need adjustement or at least isn't a priority.

 

I didn't feel like quoting your whole post since it would be way to much. However I disagree with Kolto cloud being worthwhile. Sure it can be cast on the run and therefor make it more viable in pvp, but the amount it heals and energy cost imo makes it not worth using. It randomly hits the 4 closes targets and heals them. I prefer to just use my uwm and emp to hit the people needed most. I agree I rarely see sage/sorcs use their aoe heal, but I also rarely see them healing since the hybrid spec is the fotm right now.

 

Also saying my opinion is wrong isn't productive, I can say your wrong too and we can go back and forth till this game dies. I agree it CAN be a useful tool if used in the right situation. I also think it can be wasted on targets that don't need the heals and it also can burn through our energy pool fast. Either way, this will just come down to my opinion vs yours, and that won't accomplish anything.

 

More than anything I would like to see dodge and defensive screen re-done. I still use them, and I totally didn't think about using it while buffing myself with slow-release and getting that heal buffed, great idea. So I may rework my talents to get that. Also not sure about your comment that dodge was dumb and you wanted cleanse built into Disappearing Act. I am assuming that is two separate statements, because if not then you are getting abilities mixed up.

 

I am mostly glad to see people posting with some constructive comments, but please be considerate of others and their opinion. PvP with sawbones can be done effectively and be very viable with several different variations on specs and play style. I have a guildie that runs a way different healing set up than me, and we both push out on average the same heals each wz. Either way, I love this class and just want to see it get better and not nerfed to the ground like I think many other classes would love to see.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Keyran-Halcyon
correcting spelling

[Azaranth]

I mostly offered criticisms of your suggestions, and not any suggestions of my own, which is bad form. It was a long day yesterday, sorry. Also, don't take my dodge comments too seriously, they were meant to be tongue in cheek.

 

So, in an effort to turn some leaves, here's the changes that I'd make, were I put in charge.

 

1. Kolto Cloud

 

Leave the cost and healing totals where they are. Make it an instant cast heal, not a HoT.

It always hits the target you're casting on, but it needs to smartly prioritize the three lowest hp people in range as the additional recipients.

 

At this point, I think we'd all really value it as a clutch emergency heal. I have high hopes for these changes, given the dev comments on Kolto Cloud in a recent Q&A.

 

2. Kolto Pack

 

In an effort to carve out a specific healing niche for Sawbones, I'd like to see one of our top tier talents also include a buff to Kolto Pack. "Kolto Pack now provides a 10 second duration +10% damage buff".

 

Kolto Pack is resource intensive enough that you can't exactly spam it, but you might find yourself tossing a kolto pack on 2 or 3 of the dps while the tank is positioning Soa below the pillar. That would be pretty cool.

 

3. UI overhaul

 

Efficient healing revolves around monitoring SRMP stacks (potentially on several targets), and Upper Hand stacks on ourselves. Unfortunately, we're really fighting the UI on this. Unfortunately, neither of the fixes we need are in 1.2.

 

Most importantly, we need to be able to filter castable buffs. There's just too many short duration buffs on our tanks and party members. The only buff icon I care about seeing on a party member is SRMP, so I need to be able to filter out everything else, as well as long duration buffs. This should be considered basic functionality, and is pretty standard MMO fare.

 

Additionally, we need to be able to resize the buff windows. Georg says "Well you can resize the raid window, the party window, and the target window". That's frankly not good enough. I need to scale up those SRMP icons to be easily located, and simply managed.

 

This isn't a direct buff to the class, but it would make life a lot easier for all of us. Unfortunately, this isn't in the first iteration of the 1.2 UI overhaul.

 

4. Three Upper Hand Stacks

 

With the duration as short as it is, I don't understand why Upper Hand needs to have a 2 stack limit. We "waste" a lot of stacks because Medpack Mastery procs while we're in the middle of casting Underworld medicine. The other solution to this is simply to change the Healing Hand talent so that we don't have to maintain a stack to get the healing bonus.

 

5. Defense Screen and Dodge

 

I think the solution here is just to make their respective talents better. Med Screen and Scramble both provide an effect for the duration of the skill. In the case of Med Screen, the bonus is a little counterproductive (if you're taking a ton of damage, then the med screen pops before you get to benefit), and dodge is just too short of a duration to matter. Instead, each should give you a 10 second buff to +healing or +movespeed respectively

 

--

 

I think those five changes would be plenty. The first two are legitimate buffs to the class, the second two are more about improving our quality of life and enjoyment of the class. The last one is just making bad/ignored talents worth considering.

 

Personally, I'm fine with Diagnostic Scan how it is.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Azaranth

[Keyran-Halcyon]

I like that you added more suggestions this time Azaranth, and for the most part I liked the suggestions. If Kolto cloud changed from a hot to insta-heal and could prioritize targets, I wouldn't have any issue with it and probably use it some.

 

I liked the suggestion to kolto pack, because as it stands, I'd rather use my upper hand on Emp than it since Emp is instant and free cost. As well as specced right, uwm only takes .5 secs longer and is a bigger heal, then follow it up with EMP, you can easily get a 6-7k heal off in a faster time and with less energy use than if I had used uwm followed by Kolto pack. Uwm and Kolto pack might give a bigger heal total, but would also take an extra 1.4ish secs to get that cast time off. As well as it makes you less mobile. Both the extra time and delay of mobility can be death in Pvp

 

I am doing alright with the UI, mainly becuase in PvP if I over use slow release it drains my energy faster, so i only use it on select targets, and just try and keep enough out there to help proc upper hand.

 

LOVE the idea of adding a 3rd proc to Upper hand. If not then at least adding a longer timer to it. As is, I hate getting stunned locked and watching my Upper hand go away because I couldn't use it.

 

As for the defense screen and Dodge, I think any adjustments would help improve those talents, as they are now I use them but I don't think the help as much as they should for what they are. Even an increase to the duration would be better than what we get now.