How BioWare is ruining Role Play...

[Darth_Slaine]

The Revan novel, the original kotor games, SWTOR--the story is the one and the same, no matter the format. You see evidence of the Revan novel all over Taral V, The Maelstrom Prison, Boarding Party and The Foundry. It's a reference-fest for us who read the book.

 

And like I said in my post, if Bioware themselves gave us ACTUAL lore (not vague guesses and potential excuses from the playerbase) for the Republic Sith Pureblood, I'd be fine. I may think that the lore sucks, heck, most of the Rakghoul stuff in this game sucked in my opinion, but at least it was in the game.

 

So my gripe here is that the lore hasn't changed. They opened up Sith Pureblood for all classes without any change in the lore.

 

Obviously these Lores are not the same by your own argument. If non-Force sensitive Sith purebloods could not exist in the Revan novel but do exist in SW:TOR then the Lore has diverged.

 

When something is added to the game, the designer is not required to provide a Lore explanation for it. Certain speeder models exist in SW:TOR that are completely new creations -- Bioware does not need to explain to you how those speeders came to exist in Lore. Things added to the game are inherently part of the in-game Lore.

 

They opened up Sith pureblood options for all classes within certain lineage contexts, if you are saying that the earlier Lore disagreed with that then the Lore has changed. Otherwise the Lore is unchanged and there is nothing to discuss.

 

Bioware does not need to provide an explanation for this change, especially when the change moves the Lore from a silly absolute position -- this never ever could ever happen at all -- to something in which, while the generality is true in many cases, it is not absolute.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Darth_Slaine

[Majspuffen]

Darth_Slaine, what you are saying is: game mechanic changes, that means the lore changes.

 

What I am saying is: game mechanic changes, yet there hasn't been a lore-explanation for it.

 

In a way we're saying the same thing yet I am asking for a reason, and would expect to get one from the self-proclaimed "story-driven MMO".

 

 

If we take Bioware's premade stories and ignore RP altogether, wouldn't you ask; why are there Mirialan/Twi'lek/Chiss Sith Warriors all of a sudden? For that makes no sense in their story.

 

The lore in the Revan book is the same as the lore in the game. Have you even read the book? You learn a lot about Revan, you learn a lot about the Emperor, and you learn a lot about the Jedi Knight's red friend. Are those things not true to the story simply because they happened in a book? It's the foundation of the entire game.

 

Defections happen, but you need to get some perspective.

http://youtu.be/ZFYK-9Nx2KU?t=4m10s

 

I'd recommend that you watch the entire vid. Heck, you could check up the entire timeline. All of that is relevant to what we see in the game.

 

I play this game for the story. I know vaguely what happens in the Jedi Knigth storyline and I have a comment to make on that.

 

 

From what I understand, the two non-force senensetive Sith Purebloods you encounter, they are both working directly for the Emperor? Well there you go, how many people in the Empire works directly for the Emperor? If the Emperor wanted a Miraluka as his secretary, the empire would provide him with one.

 

I haven't played the Jedi Knight's story so feel free to flesh out any details here.

 

 

 

Again, I play this game for the story. That's the one thing that stands out in this game from other MMORPGs. Sith Pureblood in the republic is a MAJOR loretwist, and I personally would like to see why this is happening all of a sudden. It surely didn't seem to happen during the Great Hyperspace War. (The information about the great hyperspace war can be found on this website so you would think that it is relevant to the game)

Edited March 10, 2012 by Majspuffen

[Kharnis]

What happens in your spoiler box is not the only thing that happens in the Jedi Knight story arc concerning Sith Purebloods.

[Sylriana]

So my gripe here is that the lore hasn't changed. They opened up Sith Pureblood for all classes without any change in the lore.

 

The lore doesn't need to change though. The only issue present here is that you seem to be under the impression that every member of a given species must follow a predesignated template, which frankly doesn't work very well for sentients. Good RPers will have a good explanation for why their characters exist, and the bad RPers? You'd be avoiding them regardless of what class/race combination they picked.

 

 

This seems to be a really common issue.. where people see what the lore describes as normal and some people decide to extrapolate that that's also the only possibility... like with the race issue.. and with the color crystal issue. The "Verisimilitude" thread was built around this issue too.

 

I know vaguely what happens in the Jedi Knigth storyline and I have a comment to make on that.

 

There's also ...

 

 

A lightsided pureblood sith who you can convince that the Jedi's war with the Sith is not about genocide or speciesism, at which point he goes to join the jedi order, because the Jedi code matches his philosophy more than the sith code

 

Edited March 11, 2012 by Sylriana

[Majspuffen]

 

A lightsided pureblood sith who you can convince that the Jedi's war with the Sith is not about genocide or speciesism, at which point he goes to join the jedi order, because the Jedi code matches his philosophy more than the sith code

 

Still an extremely isolated case.

 

I can pull the "let's forget RP and go with Bioware's story" again. Jedi Knights and Jedi Consulars in their story are young and, as the story suggests in the first few dialogues, they grew up in the republic and the jedi order. Is that fitting for a sith pureblood?

 

No sense arguing anymore. I won't be swayed nor can I sway anyone else, we're all entitled to our own opinions. Hope people will be happy with their special snowflake Sith Purebloods.

[DeaconDC]

Thank God I dont RP on Republic side...enjoy your sith pureblood jedis...thats gonna be really *********** awkward "I SLAIN OVER 100 JEDIS BUT NOW I AM ONE BECAUSE THE FORCE TOLD ME TO DO GOOD HHUUUUHRUHRUHRUHREUHREURHEU :B!"

 

Have you seen the Jedi Knight class quest then? Your little knee-jerk herp-derp comment actually seems quite shallow in light of the actual lore precedent Bioware has created.

 

#JustSaying.

[Darth_Slaine]

The lore in the Revan book is the same as the lore in the game.

 

Previously you said that the appearance of these new race/class options contradicted what was said in the Revan book --- so which is it? We must take the possibilities in-game as our starting point because that is where we play.

 

If the Revan book agrees with what is possible in-game then the Revan book is an acceptable Lore source for the game.

If the Revan book does not agree with what is possible in-game then the Revan book is not useful as an in-game Lore source.

 

The possibilities that exist in the game must always be Lore-compliant because the game is the source of its own Lore.

 

As I mentioned before, Bioware is not obligated to explain anything to you, but a reasonable explanation for any of these things would be to acknowledge that it's a big universe.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Darth_Slaine

[Sylriana]

Is that fitting for a sith pureblood?

 

Given the right circumstances, yes.

[Majspuffen]

Previously you said that the appearance of these new race/class options contradicted what was said in the Revan book --- so which is it? We must take the possibilities in-game as our starting point because that is where we play.

 

Sigh, you've pointed out TWO individuals (in this big universe) who are working for the Emperor. Again, if the Emperor wanted a Miraluka as his secretary, the Empire would provide him with one. I can accept that.

 

As I mentioned before, Bioware is not obligated to explain anything to you, but a reasonable explanation for any of these things would be to acknowledge that it's a big universe.

 

Am I not allowed to expect story from a story-driven MMO? It's a big universe that we only get to see a fraction of. Somehow, all those super-special snowflake sith purebloods will all be found at the republic fleet. How's that for immersion?

[Silthir]

As it happens, you stated that Chiss shouldn't be able to become Sith Warriors due to "lore", yet there are several instances where there was a Chiss Force Sensitive. So if the Sith found them, then surely they would send them to Korriban to train.

[bigfatdan]

I don't understand how a pureblood jedi can ruin immersion and the fact that there are 23 Khem Vals running around doesn't.

[Majspuffen]

Given the right circumstances, yes.

 

"My parents defected from the empire 40-50 years ago or so and joined the republic. I was born and raised in the republic and sent to the jedi order and treated like a fellow member, despite my sith heritage." <--- We'll get to see dozens of dozens variations on that, and to me it makes little to no sense.

 

To throw Bioware's own lore at you; back during the Great Hyperspace War when Naga Sadow united the Sith agains the Republic, there were sith who rebelled. They didn't join the Republic however, they fought among themselves.

 

The republic saw this as an opportunity to wipe them out. Once the in-war had ended between the sith, the republic came in with full force and eradicated as much of the sith-species as they could, forcing the surviving sith into deep space.

 

So as a Sith Pureblood, we learn that the republic consists of a bunch of arseholes. The Jedi may think that the republic's decision was a mistake but it was still their decision. The Sith Pureblood's rage towards the republic is completely justified.

 

Also, a spoiler from the Foundry:

 

 

In the foundry, we learn of Revan's plan to exterminate everyone that's got a Sith heritage, which was apparently like 90% of the entire empire. That is the Jedi that the Republic fought to free. The may not have been aware of his intentions, but what conclusion should you draw in-character? Revan wanted to exterminate ALL sith--AGAIN!

 

 

YES! Let's defect! FOR MASS GENOCIDE! Destroy the Evil empire!! Evil/Dark side does not translate well into the factions. Yes, sith = dark side and jedi = light side, but to me the republic seem almost as corrupt as the empire. The empire have a flawed way of doing things but you can't deny their efficiency. In a way, the republic is chaos whereas the empire is order and disciplin. Now, in most fantasy, chaos = evil and order = good.

 

Perspective people. If a Sith does not like the way the Empire is handling things, they are in a position to change it, provided that they can survive. If a Sith joins the republic, they turn their back to their entire race and ultimately betray their heritage, and for what? What, exactly, does the republic offer them? No matter how good the republic is, they still issued the decision that nearly brought an end to the Sith Pureblood as a species.

 

The fact that all sith pureblood are force sensetive cannot really be argued. We've seen two cases where they are not and again, those two individuals were working for the Emperor. The Emperor can have anything he wants. He seem to prefer using Sith Pureblood to do his dirty work though--ever seen the Sith Warrior's story? There could be numerous reasons why he'd want a Sith Pureblood non-force sensetive. For one, a non-force sensetive pureblood would no doubt have less ambition... but now it is I who am grasping at straws. I'll have to play the Jedi Knight storyline and judge for myself.

 

 

So, provided with the lore that we've seen in the game, in books and on this website, the Sith Pureblood have little to no reason to defect. It may not break your immersion, seeing sith pureblood all over the republic fleet, but it certainly breaks mine. And if you can't understand that, then you're just as short-sighted as a defecting Sith Pureblood.

 

Again, this is a STORY-DRIVEN MMO, and I who care about the story, want to see a reason for this sudden change. Right now it's just a half-arsed attempt to please the masses. It's pure laziness, is what it is. If Bioware wanted to help RP then they would give us sittable chairs and social games in cantinas.

[Majspuffen]

As it happens, you stated that Chiss shouldn't be able to become Sith Warriors due to "lore", yet there are several instances where there was a Chiss Force Sensitive. So if the Sith found them, then surely they would send them to Korriban to train.

 

As a Sith Inquisitor, it fits. As a Sith Warrior, it does not. Sith Warriors are nobles.

[Majspuffen]

I don't understand how a pureblood jedi can ruin immersion and the fact that there are 23 Khem Vals running around doesn't.

 

23 Khem Vals running around does ruin the immersion. But it's different, people need to have Khem Val around for questing and what not. Also, people do not roleplay that Khem Val is their servant, for that would be the same as claiming a piece from the class story. The companions are, more or less, an OOC thing (with the exception of droids and perhaps suitable slaves).

[uaintjak]

This is ridiculous. You're basically arguing that because you see things a certain way, everyone else should be restricted to what you believe.

 

Bad news kiddo, life doesn't work that way.

 

If you can't come up with a reason behind a sith pureblood joining the Jedi order, or a non-force sensitive pureblood, then I suggest it has less to do with "lore" or "realism" and more to do with your own narrow-minded interpretation of what roleplaying is.

 

20 Khem Vals doesn't break your immersion because "it's basically OOC" and I guess people running around with names like "Jackiechan" and "Pwnzer" don't break your immersion either (I guess maybe that's OOC too?) and people who don't want to roleplay with you don't break your immersion, and a million other little things like those don't break your immersion...

 

But seeing Sith Pureblood Jedi is going to just ruin the game for you? Come on.

[Majspuffen]

This is ridiculous. You're basically arguing that because you see things a certain way, everyone else should be restricted to what you believe.

 

Bad news kiddo, life doesn't work that way.

 

If you can't come up with a reason behind a sith pureblood joining the Jedi order, or a non-force sensitive pureblood, then I suggest it has less to do with "lore" or "realism" and more to do with your own narrow-minded interpretation of what roleplaying is.

 

20 Khem Vals doesn't break your immersion because "it's basically OOC" and I guess people running around with names like "Jackiechan" and "Pwnzer" don't break your immersion either (I guess maybe that's OOC too?) and people who don't want to roleplay with you don't break your immersion, and a million other little things like those don't break your immersion...

 

But seeing Sith Pureblood Jedi is going to just ruin the game for you? Come on.

 

Seeing one Sith Pureblood Jedi? No. Seeing dozens of them? Yes. Right now, there is a certain individuality and character to both factions, even in OOC-places such as warzones.

 

Again, 20 Khem Vals does break my immersion. He's supposed to be an unique, the "only" one in the universe (unless his story says otherwise further down the road, I don't know). I never approved of companions. I think they are fun to have in cutscenes and on the ship, but other than that, they cause more problems than they solve. This is, again, my own personal opinion. No doubt there are people who absolutely love the companions.

 

People are free to believe whatever they want. I however, who am so immersed in the story and lore of this game, would like to see an explanation to this, because as I've overly stated by now, it makes little to no sense to me. And I'm not alone in thinking this, and again, this is a story-driven MMO. You'd think changes like this would have some sort of story behind it, or are we disregarding the fourth pillar completely?

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=343593

 

Seems I'm barking in the entirely wrong subsection of the forums.

 

This is ridiculous. You're basically arguing that because you see things a certain way, everyone else should be restricted to what you believe.

 

I am seeing things through the story that Bioware has spoonfed to me. If anything, I'm trying to get more story into the game. If Bioware gave us official lore that could explain the existance of the sudden increase of Sith Pureblood in the republic, would that not benefit the game and even the RP community as a whole? Then I won't have to dictate how things are, Bioware will!

Edited March 11, 2012 by Majspuffen

[Darth_Slaine]

Seeing one Sith Pureblood Jedi? No. Seeing dozens of them? Yes. Right now, there is a certain individuality and character to both factions, even in OOC-places such as warzones.

 

Again, 20 Khem Vals does break my immersion. He's supposed to be an unique, the "only" one in the universe (unless his story says otherwise further down the road, I don't know). I never approved of companions. I think they are fun to have in cutscenes and on the ship, but other than that, they cause more problems than they solve. This is, again, my own personal opinion. No doubt there are people who absolutely love the companions.

 

Why not cap the number of Jedi players that can reach 50 on a server so that we don't have more Jedi Masters running around then there should be according to canon?

 

It has been pointed out before that you probably won't see too many Sith Jedi or Troopers. First, it looks like you would need to choose to have your lvl 50 pureblood Sith as the head of your lineage -- a limiting factor. Second, players who began by choosing a very "Empire" class would now have to want to play a republic class -- another limit. Third, they would need to say, "I'd like to be a Republic Sith" -- even further limited.

 

If you object so strongly to seeing people RPing or just playing character class and race combinations that you feel are bad because Bioware hasn't explained why they are good, then I would suggest finding a very low pop server and logging on in the middle of the night.

 

The real problem here is that some people don't like a particular RP concept, in this case race/class, and usually they would attack it saying, "Not lore-based" but now they cannot. Stop worrying about how other people's RP will impact your immersion. Either roll with it or ignore it.

 

 

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=343593

 

Seems I'm barking in the entirely wrong subsection of the forums.

 

I find this very amusing. In the thread you linked, the consensus seems to be that Bioware's changes bring the game closer to canon but will have little impact on the story and playstyle as a whole.

 

It looks like you found the "wrong subsection of the forums" again.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Darth_Slaine

[ScarletBlaze]

There's also another situation on the pure blood sith, just becasue they are making them honestly how many are you going to run into in one night.

 

Not everyone stands around in a cantina and roleplays. Some do it in groups while questings, doing flashpoints, etc.

 

So actually running into a lot in one night is highly unlikely.

[jaxdane]

The problem is it doesn't make sense because Sith practice on Absolution and Power. If I was a Dark Lord of the Sith and saw my apprentice sporting a Cave made crystal than I would think my apprentice was weak because as I have stated. The Sith in there own beliefs perfected there Saber by making there own which is a Synthetic Crystal forged by them not picked out. A synthetic Crystal 90% of the time turns red and if a Synthetic Crystal turns any other color its a true rarity like Exar Kun which had secrets he discovered through a hologram. If he hadn't found the secrets than I am pretty sure he would be sporting a red helted saber like every other Sith Lord you see or read about.

 

The problem I have with your side of this debate is too many of your points are punctuated with "If I were a sith". Why should the entire player base have to conform to what you think a Sith or Jedi would think or do when there is so much lore (isn't that what started this discussion anyway) that tells us what we can and can't do.

As far as how people feel about seeing tons of Sith pureblood jedi runnig around honestly why pay so much attention to what others are doing this is supposed to be about your story. I just don't see how what race another person is becomes so important to others.

you see them and generally they are gone within a few minutes.

Edited March 12, 2012 by jaxdane

[kotandlayz]

Sith use red lightsabers. Jedi use blue-and-green. The Light/Dark restrictions have NOTHING to do with being Jedi or Sith. A Dark-Side Jedi can't use Jedi colors because of his dark alignment, while a Light-Side Sith can't use red because of his light alignment. I argue that this move actually HELPS role-play.

 

As for the "heroic ability unlock. . ." yeah, that bothers me a bit. Though it would be cool to have a Sith Warrior who can use Force Lightning, or a Sith Assassin with some improved lightsaber attacks, an Imperial Agent using Force Choke. . . well, you could RP it as a miniature tractor beam projector mounted in your armor. . .

 

in the die 20 saga edition knights of the old republic book and jedi training manual you have over 25 different crystals for making lightsabers and they have different colors and abilities. some give dark points for using, some give light points for using. it would have been nice for that to be used here.

[Majspuffen]

Why not cap the number of Jedi players that can reach 50 on a server so that we don't have more Jedi Masters running around then there should be according to canon?

 

Because Bioware said, years ago, that this was an era where there were Jedi and Sith aplenty.

 

It has been pointed out before that you probably won't see too many Sith Jedi or Troopers. First, it looks like you would need to choose to have your lvl 50 pureblood Sith as the head of your lineage -- a limiting factor. Second, players who began by choosing a very "Empire" class would now have to want to play a republic class -- another limit. Third, they would need to say, "I'd like to be a Republic Sith" -- even further limited.

 

I can only hope that you are right. Still, if bioware presented some lore I wouldn't have need to be concerned.

 

The real problem here is that some people don't like a particular RP concept, in this case race/class, and usually they would attack it saying, "Not lore-based" but now they cannot. Stop worrying about how other people's RP will impact your immersion. Either roll with it or ignore it.

 

Sigh, again, this is a story-driven MMO and for changes like these I would like to see some explanation as to why it is happening. Right now it is just a perk to please the masses.

 

Wouldn't you want to see a reason? Your craving doesn't have to be as strong as mine but surely you would appreciate it if Bioware themselves stated why we are seeing this in the game all of a sudden (especially considering how strict they were about this in the beta. Why the change of heart? Could it be all the QQ on these forums?). That way people would have official lore to support their republic sith purebloods.

 

And I can already see your response, it will be something in the lines of "They don't have to", to avoid answering the question. All I'm asking is; would you not appreciate it? Yes or no? You already know my answer, I would love them for it, even if I would think that the lore they presented was bad. It shows that they care.

 

I find this very amusing. In the thread you linked, the consensus seems to be that Bioware's changes bring the game closer to canon but will have little impact on the story and playstyle as a whole.

 

It looks like you found the "wrong subsection of the forums" again.

 

If you read the whole thread you'll see that there are mixed opinions about the legacy system as a whole and that I am not the only one who is upset about this change. Cancrizans is making some valid points and expresses them better than what I could.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Majspuffen

[DarthRavnos]

@Majspuffen - You're wasting your effort here. Hence why I dropped off from replying on the thread. The people who are debating in favor of the story breaking changes are narrow minded.

 

To sit here and say "My story is unique... I am the product of a stranded ship that had one Sith Pureblood child on it... I was trained by the Jedi in the ways of the Force..." gets really old when everyone on the server has the same back story.

 

You end up with a Jedi Temple full of Sith Purebloods. Not to mention these "Jedi" use Flamethrowers. And everyone has a "rare" white lightsaber (thanks Geologist vendor!). How does this derail the lore of the Star Wars universe? I ask hoow does it not?

 

People in here can't grasp the "big picture". And it is very simple...

 

When the Star Wars universe only ever mentions a rare instance of something occurring (take the Exile's Crystal for example) and every player thinks they can whip up a background story that explains how they themselves were able obtain or do this rare thing. It is no longer rare nor does it make sense anymore. It would be as if BioWare allowed you to obtain the title Emporer.

 

If we saw 100 Emporer's in the same room would it make sense? Is there some sort of convention going on?

 

Another example... Anyone can pull the mystical sword from the stone. Oh okay? That makes sense too I guess. And if everyone is wielding the sword of kings then who is the actual king?

 

Again... a lot of narrow minded replies. And a lack of forethought from the game designers / developers.

[da_krall]

Thank God I dont RP on Republic side...enjoy your sith pureblood jedis...thats gonna be really *********** awkward "I SLAIN OVER 100 JEDIS BUT NOW I AM ONE BECAUSE THE FORCE TOLD ME TO DO GOOD HHUUUUHRUHRUHRUHREUHREURHEU :B!"

 

Doesnt that sort of describe raven??? the hero of every roleplay star wars freak ever??

 

As for The OP and bioware destroying your RP. Its role play, no one can spoil it for you ever unless they lobotomise you. How is someone running around with a red colour or a sith pureblood be less immersion breaking than seeing the 100th super rare and really feared Desaad run past you? Or any of the class story? they are so immersion breaking im surpirsed any RPer would do them.

Edited March 12, 2012 by da_krall

[Retro-]

I can't say that this is killing roleplaying.

 

One major problem I think most people have including myself to some extent is a mindset that only jedi/sith have force powers, which I think is mainly due to the fact the movies (ep.4/5/6) take place during a time period where there are no force sensitves.

 

But if you look at this period in time, jedi/sith are everywhere and its not hard to logically conceive that some that are not officially force users would have some latent powers or abilities from somewhere within there own family lineage.

 

I do think its good idea however NOT to allow these abilities into pvp as you create massive amounts of balance issues.

[Raeln]

Why not cap the number of Jedi players that can reach 50 on a server so that we don't have more Jedi Masters running around then there should be according to canon?

 

Haha, now there's a point. There are more Jedi consulars than there are troopers by a long shot. Quite interesting, I always thought there were hundreds of thousands of soldiers per a single Jedi. In TOR it's quite the opposite. More like a hundred Jedi to 1 trooper/smuggler.