Bioware, what are you thinking?

[Cancrizans]

You're right. You should unsub.

 

And you will likely make glib and meaningless comments all over the internets for years to come. Those among us who posses logic welcome your efforts as we welcome a circus passing through town.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Cancrizans

[Rami__]

So just to TL;DR:

 

You're complaining that the game is doing something which the lore never forbade or explicitly mentioned as taboo?

 

You've simply formed your own little interpretation of the SW Lore in your mind and now that a game doesn't do exactly as you see it you complain. You're not forced to play this you know! You can live inside your own SW world in your mind.

 

Another entry for 'Fanboi's gone wrong'.

[Zulex]

So you can roll a sith pureblood trooper,thats just LOLS and sums up this game tbh,bring on GW2

[Sparklehorse]

Anybody that is shocked by them playing loose and fast with the lore in an mmo played by millions of players needs to get a grip on reality.

 

From the very beginning, when this mmo was just announced, it was very clear that many concessions to the lore gods would need to be made to make this work. I'm amazed that this took anybody by surprise.

 

As to the legacy system in general. It's not great but it's ok. It's a new feature and as with any new feature, it will be great for some, for others not-so-much but as is often the case, a good portion of the forum crowd have totally missed the future potential in their rush to lambast the developers for twisting their precious lore.

 

I have news for the lore purists and you ain't gonna like it. There are a lot more people out there that don't give a crap about the lore and would be thrilled to be running around on a Jawa Jedi than there are that would be offended by that prospect. I'm not making a judgment as to whether this is a good or bad thing, just making a point that seems to be getting missed...often.

[Esauru]

I think there is alot of misunderstanding here that I need to clear up...

Or hope I could.

 

Light sided Sith purebloods? Possible.

JEDI Sith purebloods? Seriously.. those people don't even allow marriage, you think they'd allow a demonic looking thing to join them, one or two MAYBE with much suspicion and alot "proving" to do, a big bunch of them..? Take a guess.

 

Force sensitive Chiss? Sure as hell.

Chiss who shoot lightning without training? Really..? Being Force sensitive does not

automatically mean you are Jedi or Sith. You just have the POTENTIAL to do neat ****,

yet sometimes force sensitivity could even but not "enough" to be honed into a Sith

or a Jedi.

 

I personally think alot of people misunderstand being LIGHT side and being Jedi, as well

as being Force sensitive and ACTUALLY using lightning.

 

Let me put out a very simple example.

There are ALOT OF talented artists out there of all sorts, only a handful are EARNING BIG bucks.

 

It's difficult for a Sith pureblood to throw away all those years of teaching to embrace

a whole other set of teachings that conflict with many aspects of their previous teachings.

Yet it is not impossible, there can be a small number of Drizzt Do'urdens.. Yet what if

there's a big bunch of "Lawful good" Dark elves?

 

While on the other hand, it is even MORE difficult for the OPPOSING SIDE to accept you,

considering your entire race's roots go down to that which the Jedi oppose. On top of that

Sith are known to be deceptive, manipulative and treacherous, it does not help their

resume if they want to jump sides.

 

Now to the whole thing about non Jedi/Sith using force lightning/force choke.

True, Luke barely had training and managed to do some amazing **** with the force, but do remember, he is "THE ONE". We on the other hand are the everyday people, unsung heroes

or villains, what-not. To be FORCE Sensitive for alot alot of races is very likely especially

n this era, but force sensitivity DOES NOT mean you can naturally sprout lightning from your hands or even manage a force push. Yes that weird prisoner in Nar shadda managed to

somehow learn force choke and think he is God. <--- I personally think that is ********.

Much like the whole Sith pureblood Jedi, or force choking smugglers.

Lightning shooting Bounty hunters? Not so, it could be some techie stuff and nothing to do

with the force.

 

I only end with this..

Bioware, I am deeply disappointed.

[fordpre]

Well given the fact the races that you can play arent limitied physically or via exisiting lore I cant see a problem. Its not like they are letting you roll a jawa trooper, or an ewok jedi consular is it ? Yes you could complain about Chiss on republic side or miraluka on empire side, however whilst your race might be on one side it doesnt stop individuals being on the other does it ?

[CptBrit]

The only thing from the guild summit that I thought "***" was giving non-force classes force choke etc. Even if it is only a token move it is still weird.

 

I personally won't be taking part in the new races as I have 8 characters already but I would have made a Lightside Sith Pureblood Guardian if I'd not already got a level 40 Human Guardian...

 

That is unless I delete my Smuggler and make a Chiss one...

[IronJelly]

Any word on whether these open to other classes as well?

 

Because a Miraluka Imperial Agent would be amusing to me

[RuQu]

Any word on whether these open to other classes as well?

 

Because a Miraluka Imperial Agent would be amusing to me

 

They do.

 

Get a race to 50 on any character, and that race can be used to create a new character of any class, any faction.

 

You can also unlock with (lots of) credits.

[VanorDM]

JEDI Sith purebloods? Seriously..

 

I have a pure blood sith in my crew as a Jedi Knight, and I have sent one to Typhon to become a Light side Jedi. So no, Jedi Sith is not at all unreasonable, it's quite clearly established in the current lore. Heck I helped a former member of the Dark Console who is now a Jedi Knight.

 

Also Jedi are in fact allowed to get married.

 

You really should learn a little bit about the Lore both in and out of game, before you try making arguments like this.

 

Chiss who shoot lightning without training? Really..?

 

Lightning isn't that big of a deal really. A number of Jedi discover how to use it without training in the EU lore. So the idea of a Chiss using force lightning isn't that far fetched either. Especially considering that to do it, means that that character is somehow related to a Sith who can shoot lightning, so them getting training isn't exactly far fetched.

 

We on the other hand are the everyday people, unsung heroes or villains, what-not

 

No we are not, you are completely and totally wrong with that statement. Our characters are not unsung heroes, we're Epic heroes. My Jedi Knight is the Luke Skywalker of this era. Our characters are far, far from being everyday people, we are the movers and shakers of the galaxy.

 

Making a statement like that makes me wonder if you've actually even played though the storyline at all, because you couldn't be farther from the truth if you tried.

Edited March 7, 2012 by VanorDM

[DMSL]

Lightning isn't that big of a deal really. A number of Jedi discover how to use it without training in the EU lore. So the idea of a Chiss using force lightning isn't that far fetched either. Especially considering that to do it, means that that character is somehow related to a Sith who can shoot lightning, so them getting training isn't exactly far fetched.

 

Well actually it is a big deal. Only someone that is Force sensitive can wield Force lightning. So it makes sense in this game for Force sensitive classes to use it but not for others. Species is not the point being made it's the classes that annoy people that Bioware is messing with. I do agree with the protest. It's ridiculous for, for example, a smuggler to have Force choke.

[TheOnlyKyrenS]

So you're telling me that out of the thousands of years of lore, not one person decided to defect or use their free will to do as they please?

[Redderic]

uhm think about kotor 2 with the miraluka sith....

it happens bro ysomad?

[VanorDM]

Only someone that is Force sensitive can wield Force lightning.

 

Force Sensitive does not mean you are a trained Jedi or Sith, it also doesn't mean you can use a light saber.

 

Luke used the Force to blow up the first Death Star and he had what, 5 minutes training? The EU lore is filled with people who are Force Sensitive, but aren't full fledged Jedi or Sith using force powers, typically they're a one trick pony, and can do maybe one thing.

[Hebrind]

To OP:

 

As far as I know, BioWare pitch an idea to LucasArts, who then say "Yeah, that's fine, go ahead!" and that's how lore is born? Anyways.

 

Your whole argument smacks of "I want to pigeonhole a certain race as a certain class" - and the world, whether real life or fiction, doesn't work like that.

 

There's evil in every race, whether you're white, black, Sith Pureblood, zabrak, human, chiss, whatever. For examples...

 

Miraluka sith happened in lore, that isn't in the game at the time of writing.

If we went by your logic, Zabrak would be Empire only, as the only Zabrak in the films is Darth Maul.

 

If we went by your logic, this game would become really stagnant really quickly - and nobody wants that D:

[Lord_Scythe]

This is a HORRIBLE idea. It makes a total mockery of Star Wars lore, and will completely ruin the game's atmosphere and integrity. Simply from the perspective of a Republic player, I do not want to see a bunch of Purebloods and Chiss running around on Carrick Station, it will just look completely stupid.

 

It is lore breaking in the worst way and for the WORST reason: convenience. I for one am willing to forgo this "feature" until REAL new races are released...whether that be in the near future or several years down the road...or frankly...never.

 

This decision is so bad and so detrimental to the integrity of the game and even, given the fact that these games are being used these days as a source of "canon", to the Star Wars franchise as a whole, that this is something I would NEVER want to see in the game for any reason whatsoever.

 

For those who may think "well you have to have the race at level 50 to make one..." you should realize that that is an extremely minor limitation which will not significantly change the fact that you will be seeing an impossible number of these cross faction races running around once the patch hits.

 

I personally will not be able to suspend disbelief, and I ask that Bioware SERIOUSLY reconsiders this move, both for the health of the game and Star Wars as a whole. Star Wars is too significant and admired an IP to trifle with things like this simply so you can provide people with a "perk".

 

EDIT: Since so many people seem to want to pick and choose which aspects of this they want to respond to so they can have the last word without actually addressing the issue, and keep bringing up the notion that "there will always be X number of any race that switches to the other side etc. etc." without reading the 2 or 3 posts I made explaining why that is meaningless in the context of these changes, I will state reason that is so here.

 

Allowing that there will always be a percentage of a race that does not follow the normal political or ideological affiliations the majority holds...that is NOT what will be represented in the game if this change goes through. What we WILL see is an INORDINATE and UNBELIEVABLY large number of cross faction races, MUCH larger than anything that could EVER be explained by the idea that there will always be some who change sides.

 

That argument holds no water.

 

I am gonna use logic. I know you are going to have a hard time following after all your posts on the crystals.

 

This is not Star Wars I-III or IV-VI.

 

This is TOR. This is the concept of Bioware. There is no lore for this timeline. That means that Bioware is making the lore for this era in the Star Wars universe as they go.

 

Your argument holds no water as there is no canon for this timeline.

 

With all your negative canon posts I suggest you move on to a different game. You are not happy unless it is canon and since OT canon cannot work for this time period I think you would be happy else where. I know I would be very happy with you else where.

 

Perhaps arguing with other game builders how incorrect their games are would be more your style.

 

For anything else I refer to my sig!

[DMSL]

Force Sensitive does not mean you are a trained Jedi or Sith, it also doesn't mean you can use a light saber.

 

Luke used the Force to blow up the first Death Star and he had what, 5 minutes training? The EU lore is filled with people who are Force Sensitive, but aren't full fledged Jedi or Sith using force powers, typically they're a one trick pony, and can do maybe one thing.

 

So we are to assume now that every char is Force sensitive in SWTOR? It really doesn't make sense for an Inquisitor, Sith Warrior, Jedi Knight or Consular ability to be used by say a Smuggler, Trooper or Imperial Agent. These are class abilities and should be only available to those where it makes sense game and lore wise. These are iconic characters with iconic abilites if they implement this it becomes nothing more that a silly gimmick.

[RuQu]

I am gonna use logic. I know you are going to have a hard time following after all your posts on the crystals.

 

This is not Star Wars I-III or IV-VI.

 

This is TOR. This is the concept of Bioware. There is no lore for this timeline. That means that Bioware is making the lore for this era in the Star Wars universe as they go.

 

Your argument holds no water as there is no canon for this timeline.

 

With all your negative canon posts I suggest you move on to a different game. You are not happy unless it is canon and since OT canon cannot work for this time period I think you would be happy else where. I know I would be very happy with you else where.

 

Perhaps arguing with other game builders how incorrect their games are would be more your style.

 

For anything else I refer to my sig!

 

Are the personal insults necessary? Are they part of the base on which you are building the aforementioned logical argument (that never appeared)?

 

The OP makes a logical argument.

 

He asserts:

 

1. Legacy will allow cross-faction race characters.
   
2. The numbers of cross-faction race characters will be large.
   
3. Large numbers of cross-faction race players will decrease immersion for him.
   

 

He concludes, based on the above, that the Legacy system will decrease his immersion.

 

He then asserts:

1. The Legacy system will decrease his immersion.
   
2. Decreased immersion will decrease his enjoyment.
   

 

From which he concludes that the Legacy system will decrease his enjoyment.

 

He then asserts:

1. The Legacy system will decrease his enjoyment.
   
2. Any system that decreases his enjoyment of the game is a bad system.
   

 

From which he concludes that the Legacy system is a bad system.

 

This is a valid logical conclusion, which means if his assertions are true then the conclusion must be true.

 

Now let's examine the assertions to see if they are true:

 

1. Legacy will allow cross-faction race characters.
   
2. The numbers of cross-faction race characters will be large.
   
3. Large numbers of cross-faction race players will decrease immersion for him.
   

 

1. This one is a fact.
   
2. This is speculation. If it proves true his conclusion is valid, if not, it isn't.
   
3. This is a personal opinion, and, as such, the conclusion will only apply to people who share it. I, personally, do not hold this opinion and I am not bothered by large numbers of characters of any race.
   

 

So far, we can conclude that if his speculation proves true, this system will decrease his immersion, but not mine.

 

1. The Legacy system will decrease his immersion.
   
2. Decreased immersion will decrease his enjoyment.
   

 

1. See the previous conclusion. Conditional upon 2 and 3 above.
   
2. This is subjective, but clearly holds true for him (and many of us, including myself). Accepted as true.
   

 

Through this point we see his argument is valid, assuming his speculation is correct and you share his views on species and immersion. Under those two conditions, his enjoyment will decrease.

 

1. The Legacy system will decrease his enjoyment.
   
2. Any system that decreases his enjoyment of the game is a bad system.
   

 

1. Again, this was found to be true, assuming his speculation is correct and you share his views on species.
   
2. This is generally accepted as true by definition.
   

 

So, logically, the OP has reached a perfectly valid logical conclusion based on two conditionals: that his speculation on the number of people playing cross-faction races is correct, and that your immersion will suffer from that increase.

 

The only way to debunk his argument is to disprove those two points.

 

The speculation is only that, speculation, and is just as valid as any speculation to the contrary. Only time will tell how many people want to play Republic Chiss and Purebloods or Imperial Miralaku or Mirialans.

 

The second is entirely subjective opinion. He considers the races to be fairly uniform in their politics, and thinks that the number of defectors, refugees, etc should be sufficiently low as to be confined to a few NPCs at most and not player characters. I, on the other hand, think that opening it up to players to create their own story, such as my Chiss refugee RP framework I described earlier, makes this a tool to increase enjoyment regardless of faction-species player demographics.

 

There is almost no way to change a players view on that second one. I have provided alternative ways of viewing those cross-faction race players, but if that troubles you it probably always will...and therefore you are correct to conclude that, for you, this is a bad system, while I am correct to conclude otherwise.

[RuQu]

So we are to assume now that every char is Force sensitive in SWTOR? It really doesn't make sense for an Inquisitor, Sith Warrior, Jedi Knight or Consular ability to be used by say a Smuggler, Trooper or Imperial Agent. These are class abilities and should be only available to those where it makes sense game and lore wise. These are iconic characters with iconic abilites if they implement this it becomes nothing more that a silly gimmick.

 

It is meant to be implemented within your personal Legacy story.

 

If you want to have your Smuggler as the son of a Jedi, and give him Force sensitivity, you are free to. If you want him to be old buddies from the time they destroyed a moon-sized space station together and he can't use the Force...don't let him.

 

It was unclear if they require familial bonds in the Legacy system to pass down such powers, or if it was (as I interpreted it) global to all regardless of assigned relationship. Even if it is available to all from a game mechanics standpoint, as a person who is bothered by the "college roommate" gaining Force powers when you hit 50...just don't use them. No one is making you put the ability on your bars, but the option is there if your son takes up Smuggling instead of going to the Jedi for training.

[VanorDM]

So we are to assume now that every char is Force sensitive in SWTOR?

 

No, only those who are in the family line of a Jedi or Sith will be able to use force powers.

 

These are class abilities and should be only available to those where it makes sense game and lore wise.

 

The only people who will be able to use force powers are those who are in the family tree of a Force user. That means that they are very likely to be Force Sensitive. Even without training, there's a number of cases of Force Sensitive people using Force powers in the EU lore. Your lack of understanding of both EU Lore and how the system will work doesn't really change anything.

[Sernon]

The "lore card" would make sense if the game was built as an intricate Star Wars simulator, where players would blend into the backdrop easily, and the world was utterly dynamic and responsive. Instead we have this themepark ride, where the players represent the only truly dynamic part, and what they look like will stand out a thousand times stronger than the backdrop.

 

So Bioware create this theme, and they put it on the box, and they sell the game this way. An adventure set in the Old Republic. And they provide the visuals and the aesthetics. And that's what you buy, that is what you subscribe to. That's the selling point!

 

Now by providing this "lore friendly" freedom to look utterly out of place, and able to defy the aesthetics and initial theme, you're encouraged to continue your adventures. Not as a part of this world, but in defiance of it! That's apparently the new selling point.

 

First we establish the aesthetics, now you're free to oppose it! For that's the only freedom left to explore. Yeah, I'm sure that's a lore friendly execution. But not in a themepark computer game, where exceptions turns out to be the only rule that can ever be applied.

 

 

The selling point just changed, that's what I'm going for here, to summarize. The initial attraction no longer applies. And thus some might protest, for they did not subscribe to this personal defiance campaign to counter the aesthetics of the game, just to be a rebel.

 

---

[OddballEasyEight]

I am gonna use logic. I know you are going to have a hard time following after all your posts on the crystals.

 

This is not Star Wars I-III or IV-VI.

 

This is TOR. This is the concept of Bioware. There is no lore for this timeline. That means that Bioware is making the lore for this era in the Star Wars universe as they go.

 

Your argument holds no water as there is no canon for this timeline.

 

With all your negative canon posts I suggest you move on to a different game. You are not happy unless it is canon and since OT canon cannot work for this time period I think you would be happy else where. I know I would be very happy with you else where.

 

Perhaps arguing with other game builders how incorrect their games are would be more your style.

 

For anything else I refer to my sig!

 

Maby you should read up a bit on the canon then... because there IS plenty of canon for this timeline... Bioware cant do whatever they want.

They still have plenty of lore they have to live up to, and there is a full total of 2 known sith that were jedi in the entire known history of the galaxy.

This is because of the sith society structure of course, one that promotes the sith way of life, and its not going to be very nice or forgiving to citizens that think differently.

 

Also, those two sith were jedi ~36.000 years before the battle of yavin. Some 33.000 years before this game. And they were part of the Je'daii, the forefathers of the present jedi culture, they werent actual jedi... they practiced balance in theforce rather than what the jedi of today do. They embraced both the dark side and the light side as one.

 

For there to suddenly be a huge influx of Sith purebloods showing up everywhere in the republic would take some sort of massive event, like the discovery of a hithertoo unknown sith colony or something like that.

 

 

but of course you dont care... you just want to play a sith pureblood jedi because its "cool".

[VanorDM]

because there IS plenty of canon for this timeline.

 

No there really isn't, that's why Bioware picked this era, because there was next to no canon writen when they made KotOR 1. So they can actually do pretty much anything they want because Bioware is the one creating the Lore for this era. The same way that other writers have created the Lore for other eras.

 

and there is a full total of 2 known sith that were jedi in the entire known history of the galaxy.

 

There's at least one Sith Jedi in this era already, he exists because my Knight redeemed him and he went to Typhon to become a Jedi. So your whole argument pretty much falls apart, because Sith Jedi do in fact exist, in this era already. That is part of canon lore.

[SnapWolf]

Let me dedramatize the whole deal here.

 

Who gives a crap about the whole Legacy deal? You make your whole personal Legacy thing. If you begin to make a deal out of everyone else and their characters (their race is completely cosmetics in term of gameplay btw), there is obviously a problem.

[Ravazrukiz]

ok its sounds like to me both sides are god moding like a mofo , if you have a problem with this sith purebloods joinin then get people form a guild an ignore them simple , i do agree that some sith did become jedi BUT thos are RARE and EXCEPTIONS and to say hey everyone can turn from the dark side just makes me scratch my head and go wait a min not all of you can do that because lets be honest if your a chiss player and you defect or playin on the republic side you have a bounty on your and should be flagged for pvp , same for any other defections or anything , if wanna addd this thats all im asking for is the ability to attack any purebloods and chiss who decide to defect and vice versus for republic people too