scorpinot Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) Besides OPs and scoundrels, what other class has positional abilities they wouldn't be able to use that's part of their main rotation? Edited March 3, 2012 by scorpinot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprigum Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Besides OPs and scoundrels, what other class has positional abilities they wouldn't be able to use that's part of their main rotation? Assassins? Some of the mobs also do knockbacks which can really diminish the DPS for some other classes which use channeled abilities. It's really not a great benchmark for DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacobusb Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I dont know if this is anywhere near accurate but My guild uses the Infernal council fight to gauge dps, yes those mobs do use knockbacks and that wouldnt be a perfect gauge of dps but heres how it goes. We have a Madness Assassin in 4/5 Rakata w/ Rakata wpn & off-hand I am an Annihilation Marauder also 4/5 Rakata w/ Columi both main and off-hand An Arsenal Mercenary in 5/5 Rakata, Columi main w/ Rakata off-hand And a Lightning Sorcerer in 4/5 Rakata, Columi Main w/ Rakata off-hand now dont start flaming me here, since individual skill, and the difference of gear all plays a factor here but this is just my take on things, and how things unfold The Merc always kills his Mob first About 4 Percent behind him is the Assassin I, being the Mara, come in next about 4 percent behind the Assassin and well in my personal opinion our sorc is just kind of special since he comes in about 12 Percent behind me. while I believe Mara, Assassin, Merc's and sorc's are great dps I believe Sniper is by far the best DPS in the game Pve wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iwipe Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I don't mind stating for the record that I seriously doubt this has any level of accuracy whatsoever. We really believing that Lethality operative is going to outdps an Arsenal Merc? What? Even if that was accurate (yeah right.) all the Ranged>Melee for any practical NM operations, simply due how melee-unfriendly current content is. Anyone who's played a Merc for more than 5 minutes knows they're blowing everything up. Did you not see I said it is a stimulation. A simulation is the numbers you would get if there is a combat log and you beat on a stationary dummy for x minutes. Simulation numbers and combat log parses on training dummies do not entirely translate to acutual dps but they give you an idea of the dps in a perfect rotation with no movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilFD Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Besides OPs and scoundrels, what other class has positional abilities they wouldn't be able to use that's part of their main rotation? Annihilation marauders can't use beserk. This SERIOUSLY gimps our dps. I'm willing to bet I'd be able to down marauders in the Infernal Council 25-35% faster if i could use this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewyG Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 I'm sorry but that spreadsheet is utterly worthless, i've been raiding ops for 2 months no and that thing is completely and utterly false. I'm pretty positive right now the rough dps order right now goes something like. Merc/commando Sorc/sage Mara/sent Assas/shadow Sniper/gunslinger op/scoundrel and jugg/guard are about the same, on the bottom. . I'm sorry but i am not seeing most of those above Gunslinger/Sniper. In WZs (and i know it is different with ops raids) with a lvl 15 gunslinger i am almost top or the top dps. Merc/commandos, mara/sents and GS/snipers are about the same with their dps from what i've seen but there is no dps meter so hard to tell for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassp Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 I'm sorry but i am not seeing most of those above Gunslinger/Sniper. In WZs (and i know it is different with ops raids) with a lvl 15 gunslinger i am almost top or the top dps. Merc/commandos, mara/sents and GS/snipers are about the same with their dps from what i've seen but there is no dps meter so hard to tell for sure. I couldn't care less about -50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subrosian Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) I'm not saying the spreadsheet is worthless. It's not; Any type of simulation or theorycrafting tool is a step forward at this point. Even without 100% accuracy, it is infinitely better than what Bioware has given us, which is not a damn thing. This is completely incorrect. Without reasonable accuracy, and a way to test that the model actually represents what's going on in-game, a spreadsheet is worse than nothing because it can lead us to draw bad conclusions. We are better off with no information than bad information. Players make decisions about class comps, rotation and gearing based off of spreadsheets that are flat-out wrong. Then the creators of those spreadsheets argue (idiotically) "show me your spreadsheet then" - failing to realize that their entire methodology is faulty. The only way to accurately sim encounters in a game as complex as SWTOR is simply to run them, and that's not something we can do until we have combat logging as well as sites that can aggregate those logs and allow us to data mine them. Edited March 4, 2012 by subrosian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subrosian Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Did you not see I said it is a stimulation. A simulation is the numbers you would get if there is a combat log and you beat on a stationary dummy for x minutes. Simulation numbers and combat log parses on training dummies do not entirely translate to acutual dps but they give you an idea of the dps in a perfect rotation with no movement. Which is useless information. Sims are not a good way of modeling something as complex as SWTOR. WoW has been out for 7 years, and not one of the sims has been able to provide statistical proof that its data matches the parses of top players. In fact, they sims have been consistently wrong, because correct sim-ing requires modeling the entire party, the boss encounter and taking into account things like CD timing, movement, buffs and usage of all abilities (grips, knockbacks, stuns, interrupts, externals, etc). Interestingly enough, the only reliable way to model anything is to have a combat log and an aggregation site, then use complex data mining techniques to extract data. Since most MMO players do not have a post-graduate research level background in Statistics and Research Methods, it's unlikely you'll see discussion on that level emerge on forums, or from random people doing something as primitive as plugging numbers into spreadsheets. The players who do this level of research in an MMO tend to keep their methods proprietary, because it's time intensive and there's little reason to share the fruits of your labor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zothlar Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Which is useless information. Sims are not a good way of modeling something as complex as SWTOR. WoW has been out for 7 years, and not one of the sims has been able to provide statistical proof that its data matches the parses of top players. In fact, they sims have been consistently wrong, because correct sim-ing requires modeling the entire party, the boss encounter and taking into account things like CD timing, movement, buffs and usage of all abilities (grips, knockbacks, stuns, interrupts, externals, etc). Interestingly enough, the only reliable way to model anything is to have a combat log and an aggregation site, then use complex data mining techniques to extract data. Since most MMO players do not have a post-graduate research level background in Statistics and Research Methods, it's unlikely you'll see discussion on that level emerge on forums, or from random people doing something as primitive as plugging numbers into spreadsheets. The players who do this level of research in an MMO tend to keep their methods proprietary, because it's time intensive and there's little reason to share the fruits of your labor. Thank you for expressing this better than I have ever been able to do. Hopefully you will make people understand how complex the interactions are between abilities, talents, fight mechanics, buffs and debuffs. Maybe you can make them realize you can't compute meaningful results without an enormous amount of actual logs to be analyzed by someone who understands statistics at a level that would leave most of us drooling and incoherent. Preach on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farizz Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) Which is useless information. Sims are not a good way of modeling something as complex as SWTOR. WoW has been out for 7 years, and not one of the sims has been able to provide statistical proof that its data matches the parses of top players. In fact, they sims have been consistently wrong, because correct sim-ing requires modeling the entire party, the boss encounter and taking into account things like CD timing, movement, buffs and usage of all abilities (grips, knockbacks, stuns, interrupts, externals, etc). The Purpose of sims / spreadsheets is not to arrive at a real game dps number, and I have never seen one in WoW that claimed to do this. Their purpose is to compare rotation/priority of abilities and stat weights, the actually dps numbers are for relative comparison between same class only. To this end the sims and spreadsheets have actually proved themselves time and again. The person who quoted spread sheet numbers as a means to compare class dps has misunderstood their purpose. Edited March 5, 2012 by Farizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprigum Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Did you not see I said it is a stimulation. A simulation is the numbers you would get if there is a combat log and you beat on a stationary dummy for x minutes. Simulation numbers and combat log parses on training dummies do not entirely translate to acutual dps but they give you an idea of the dps in a perfect rotation with no movement. A lot of the fights are nearly ideal for max DPS, this game doesn't have that much stuff to avoid to be quite honest, and of those ranged DPS are going to be least effected. There is just no way that spreadsheet is anywhere in the neighborhood of accurate. Anyone who's actually clearing NM modes knows that Operatives aren't doing 10% more DMG than arsenal mercs in ANY situation, that's just absurd. There was operative simulations floating around with any TA proc granting a "free" SP proc for heals (which wasn't being factored into GCD), which made Operatives healing look pretty inflated as well. I wouldn't be surprised if this simulation is doing something similar with lacerate that auto-procs the attack even during GCD and then again always multiplies the bonus to the proc. Giving the operative nearly unlimited usage of one of our most damaging abilities. I also have to wonder if that's pre-acid blade nerf. Since then we've gone down a LOT. I just don't think this was calculated properly. Simulations are less than useless unless done properly, and it's important to valid the simulation with in-game meters and parses. We can't currently do any of that and so I'm going to go out on a limb and say this "simulation" is just a fabrication of mechanics that *might* be working properly. But how could we know? We have nothing to base the numbers on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaknaphein Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Meanwhile classes like Sorcerer generally have high DPS uptime because of their range and lower positional sensitivity. We also need to account for all of the different possible resistances on any given boss fights, and take into account single versus multi target damage (i.e. if a boss fight has a ton of adds, a Sorcerer hitting Death Cloud and Chain Lightning is going to do more damage than a Concealment Operative). Sorc aoe on adds : http://www.torhead.com/ability/aveZKJv/chain-lightning http://www.torhead.com/ability/fAylTmX/death-field Operative aoe on adds: http://www.torhead.com/ability/83MfTyJ/carbine-burst http://www.torhead.com/ability/2CUyw6D/fragmentation-grenade Argument fails.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subrosian Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Sorc aoe on adds : http://www.torhead.com/ability/aveZKJv/chain-lightning http://www.torhead.com/ability/fAylTmX/death-field Operative aoe on adds: http://www.torhead.com/ability/83MfTyJ/carbine-burst http://www.torhead.com/ability/2CUyw6D/fragmentation-grenade Argument fails.... The torhead numbers are wrong... proving my point about why you can't rely on sims. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaknaphein Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) The torhead numbers are wrong... proving my point about why you can't rely on sims. S Do not stand on numbers but on actual abilities. The point was that you overcame or misjudged Op aoe to non-existent whereas it's the oposite. Edited March 5, 2012 by zaknaphein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dissentus Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I'm sorry but i am not seeing most of those above Gunslinger/Sniper. In WZs (and i know it is different with ops raids) with a lvl 15 gunslinger i am almost top or the top dps. Merc/commandos, mara/sents and GS/snipers are about the same with their dps from what i've seen but there is no dps meter so hard to tell for sure. Burst damage and most damage does not equal actual dps and warzones are not a good indication at all to judge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylriana Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Anyone who's played a Merc for more than 5 minutes knows they're blowing everything up. That's probably because of the multiple bugs enhancing merc DPS, which those calculations probably don't take into account Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewieMcScotty Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 That's probably because of the multiple bugs enhancing merc DPS, which those calculations probably don't take into account Theres only 1 bug affecting are dps and thats HSM getting buffed by ALL stacks of Heat Signature on a target instead of just his own. That also requires more then 1 merc dps to be in the raid with you. With that being said im consistently out dpsing everyone in my guilds HM/NMM raids by small margin even when we dont bring another merc with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylriana Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Theres only 1 bug affecting are dps and thats HSM getting buffed by ALL stacks of Heat Signature on a target instead of just his own. That also requires more then 1 merc dps to be in the raid with you. With that being said im consistently out dpsing everyone in my guilds HM/NMM raids by small margin even when we dont bring another merc with us. I haven't independently confirmed it, but supposedly there's a second bug where high velocity cylinder was subtracting a flat value rather than its implied scaling value, adding up its damage. There's no doubt though that Arsenal/Gunnery is one of the strongest RDPS specs in the game right now solo, I think they're closer to snipers than some of the people here try to make it sound though ( it's hard to tell when theorycrafting still isn't totally solid and we don't have parses though ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sogar Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I don't mind stating for the record that I seriously doubt this has any level of accuracy whatsoever. We really believing that Lethality operative is going to outdps an Arsenal Merc? What? Even if that was accurate (yeah right.) all the Ranged>Melee for any practical NM operations, simply due how melee-unfriendly current content is. Anyone who's played a Merc for more than 5 minutes knows they're blowing everything up. Same as yours ... I have simed both operative specs and there is no way concealment deals more sustain damage than lethality (the difference is small though) if done correctly ... well that's the tricky part. Anyway, there is no way concealment deals so much damage so I really doubt any of these results. Lethality op DPS is the hardest one to optimise in my experience but is not that bad and actually can do fairly well even during phase when you can't melee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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