DO NOT Provide Better Gear in Ranked WZs

[Elkirus]

I love this. some elitist seem to forget that 80% of people that play this games arent the "hard core" 10hours a day pvp players.

 

I want a game with the possibility to get neat gear without having to stress myself for it. Id agree with ranked players to get something like a tittle or w/ebut the gear should be available for every player. not only those who go in and pvp for hours and hours.

 

Singed from the working class!!!

[BlazingShadow]

I would gladly play pvp with no reward of gear.

 

Not saying some rewards wouldnt be cool, ranks, titles....

 

Holy crap, logic and reason with no attempt at trolling or starting an argument??!?!?! CODE RED CODE RED

Edited March 11, 2012 by BlazingShadow

[SirSparhawk]

Expecting those who farm gears to have an edge on others to understand what Skill vs Skill means huh ? hehe

 

While I totally agree with with the OP, I don't see it coming at all... it's been such for ages in alot of MMOs, and those who call themselves hardcore PvP'ers won't ever agree to be on par with others.

And sadly enough, the gamin industry is trying to please those, cause they do all that to get money, not for the fun.

 

Metallica once said "sad but true"

 

ps : make em grind Ranking/Comms for a T-Shirt stating "mine's bigger than yours"

 

Im a hardcore pvper, all I do is pvp and I would always agree to pvp against equally geared opponents because I dont need a crutch to excell at pvp. Peopl who dont wanna fight equally geared ppl are obviously the ppl who are bad at pvp, they need that advantage to feel good about their lack of skill. Id much rather have vanity gear over stat gear.

[Gaff]

Agreed OP. Would be nice to PvP for PvP's sake, and not because you feel obligated to grind gear to not suck.

[DaxRendar]

I PvP daily and I fully support this thread

 

Great Post OP!

 

Let's make Rewards Cosmetics, Speeders, Pets, Titles, and the like. Keep PvP competitive and balanced, especially the "Ranked PvP" that's supposed to be competitive.

[UncleJimbo]

I joined SWTOR only for the PvP and as long as I have been playing games I can say that is nothing more satisfactory knowing you beat your friend or another person in a fair fight.

 

I left WoW for the same reason, I went afk for 4 weeks due to some IRL issues and the new season starter during my absence. The gear gap was very steep and made me unsub ... this was roughly 2 years ago.

 

I also played WAR and loved the PvP in that game despite the bugs. In tier 4 the gear gap was so dam high that I was just another mosquito that was squashed while the destor stormed the bases.

 

Aion was the same story, the shier amount of grind in that game was mind boggling and made me leave .... Rift the same ...

 

I started to see a pattern in most decent MMOs, that the design team take the easy road and add gear, then add some more gear, the when player have nothing to do they add a new gear tier. That is fine and dandy for PvE, I liked it when I was an avid PvE player, but for PvP I think a different incentive is needed and a different solution of putting PvE player on equal footing with PvP player when the two worlds meet up in fights.

 

The new direction seems a bit wrong and unfair for most players that pay a sub and will not join rated warzone for different reasons and they are the majority of most MMO players, people with real live engagements, jobs, etc. I met a lot of these players even when I was an avid player, spending 10 hours playing video games and a lot of them are skilled players, but I cannot think of how the gear gap will smack them in the face and little by little make them leave and find other games fitted for their play style.

I was and will be part of the side of the players that will be in the rated and have access to said gear, but if the other side will not have access to it (be it at a lower rate, but has do be decent) I can only see how players with rated gear go and satisfy their egos in normal warzones and talking down to other players.

 

A decent solution would be to increase all stats for PvP gear when a new tear for PvE is added; this way the balance of PvE vs PvP players is rather fair. Also make expertise work only in warzones and PvP world zones, this way the PvE player is not at a disadvantage when they meet in other PvP enabled areas.

 

To make it short: PvP gear should be about bragging and shows, not about increased stats; but if stats should be changed, make the stat increase be smaller, not a huge gap that cannot be filled by skilled players.

 

EDIT:

1. A cool thing that I saw was in WAR where each capital had 10 statues of top 10 players and they represented the toons an everybody could see them. Now if this would be added for rated warzones that the top 10 players of each side could have statues spread around their faction controlled territories (or holograms since this is a Star Wars game) it would be awesome, believe me anybody doing rated warzones would want to be displayed to all his fellow players and mostly to the enemy players to rub it in their faces.

2. Implement a bounty system for rated warzones where you get tokens for killing the top 50 players of the opposing faction in warzones or double the amount if you kill them in world PvP; these tokes could be used get trophies that can be displayed on your toon, or have a non-combat companion carry a flag and display them if you wish so.

Edited March 14, 2012 by UncleJimbo

[Laxbart]

Well you guys dont grasp the whole thing i think. If you say PvP is about PvP, then PvE geared players should deal 0 Damage to PvP Players.

 

So we take it for real now: No PvP gear. PvE players will just farm theirselves up, those pure PvE Players will get unbeatable not just for PvP Players but also for PvE Players not having cleared the content. This will make PvE a neccessarity for PvP Players! This SUXX even more then Tiered PvP gear... unless you may not use a SINGLE PvE obtained Item you can't give PvE players all the stuff they want and PvP Players gain nothing expect? Expect what? What should a PvP Player gain?

You mention DAOC... well in DAOC only hard PvE Players could compete. The fractional PvP was fine, still a high RealmRank made u even more powerful (since it provided you more SKILLS not just gear, gear had to be obtained due PVE!) then fresh 50s.

It was MUCH more grinding of Players then anything we have today. Still you say this "grid" is nothing for u -> HOW COULD YOU ENJOY DAOC THEN?

 

Now okay letz compare both:

You cant get Tier3 PvE gear (so cant compete in higher content) without having a Operation "cleared" the HM version. If you just play with a friend you gain the HM-FP gear, which is only t1 (u cant get t2 or t3 with just a random group and the 2 of you)

Same goes for PvP. If you play with a friend and dont bother to gather a group of 8 ppl trying to "clear" the content (gain full t3 and rise in ELO) though bashing other Operation groups. There is and was NO game ever that does what u guys say. And if someone would do it that way u guys would cry even more and unsuscribe just because u cant compete with those good PvE players.

With the current system you CAN achieve it. You can even divide ppl by different things (HP or something like Gearscore or whatsoever) but please dont take away the opportunity for PvP players to get the upperhand against Players who do not invest as much time and effort to coordinate and gather enough people for a long time period to even HAVE a PvP-Group!

 

What u write and say may be meant good. But every real PvP player will need the effort to even beat stonger equipped players to get better themselves.

 

The ONLY thing that is not right in SWTOR right now is the fractional and open world PVP... instanced PvP is going the RIGHT way! ELO is the best system to rate accurately. The tiered PvP gears is just the same, its the RIGHT thing to do.

Please do not do the mistake and go the way WoW did. Because Arena just sucks! If you want the best PvP gear you should gain yourself one of the best PvP groups and earn it just like the PvE players do it too.

 

And SWTOR is nothing about grind... you gain things so fast - don't know why u guys even complain. To gain the best items wont be your problem if you are really a PvP fan... coordination in your group will be!

 

And the ELO system gives the opportunity to match only people in a ELO range (say 0-1000, 1000-infinty, no elo (so no ranked group or fresh 50) ). Makes me think Bioware is on the right path. Now let the FLAMEWAR begin

[Laxbart]

P.S.: It's the same in reallife... u complain because u are a hobby soccer player and can't compete with those earning millions (why dont you earn millions - i mean you also play soccer! OUCH!!!)

Right... the time you invested in this sport is displayed by your "Rank" but they also got the better "equippment" ( better stadium, adidas/nike shoes, a huge income) BECAUSE they invested more time then a "causual" soccer player. They got talent. They earned it over time (while they rose in "ELO") step by step like this gear.

 

And now dont tell me you got the same right to play in FC Barcelona ( 1st league ) then Lionel Messi... or you deserve more money then him. Soccer is just a game like SWTOR.

 

We just need a league system =) (Amateurs vs. Amateurs , Pros. vs Pros. )

Still if you play outside this league, you may meet Messi on your playfield (if he would bother to not play in league but also in different towns on "open PVP fields") you would be smashed just like u will be when queueing into WZ's solo.

 

The thing is: It may be just a game. But games are always divided by skill and equipment...

everywhere in any kind of sports. You just fly over the roof wanting to compete with Messi while playing soccer once a month for 2 hours... F A I L! :>

 

Global queue mixed with seperated "Leagues" will be the solution!

[DaxRendar]

P.S.: It's the same in reallife... u complain because u are a hobby soccer player and can't compete with those earning millions (why dont you earn millions - i mean you also play soccer! OUCH!!!)

Right... the time you invested in this sport is displayed by your "Rank" but they also got the better "equippment" ( better stadium, adidas/nike shoes, a huge income) BECAUSE they invested more time then a "causual" soccer player. They got talent. They earned it over time (while they rose in "ELO") step by step like this gear.

 

And now dont tell me you got the same right to play in FC Barcelona ( 1st league ) then Lionel Messi... or you deserve more money then him. Soccer is just a game like SWTOR.

 

We just need a league system =) (Amateurs vs. Amateurs , Pros. vs Pros. )

Still if you play outside this league, you may meet Messi on your playfield (if he would bother to not play in league but also in different towns on "open PVP fields") you would be smashed just like u will be when queueing into WZ's solo.

 

The thing is: It may be just a game. But games are always divided by skill and equipment...

everywhere in any kind of sports. You just fly over the roof wanting to compete with Messi while playing soccer once a month for 2 hours... F A I L! :>

 

Global queue mixed with seperated "Leagues" will be the solution!

 

Congratulations on winning the "Logical Fallacy Post of the Day!" award!

 

MLB Players are expected and required to use bats meeting certain criteria to assure "fair play" and "competitiveness" that are actually worse than the best available technology. The reason they get paid millions is because they can outperform others based on skill and is the reason that performance-enhancing drugs are banned as well.

 

Motorsports also feature strict rules for competitive balance.

 

PvP in this game should be no different. The advantages of skill, practice, experience, and teamwork from regularly playing with others should be the deciding factor - not whether you had more free time to "lose" your way up to top tier PvP gear (remember BW has said you will get Ranked Commendations whether you win or lose in Ranked Matches so people with horribly low ELO Ratings but a lot of time will still end up with the best gear).

 

I do agree they need a way for PvPers to be on an equal or better footing gear-wise than Raiders (especially when engaging in "organized" PvP like WZs or Ranked-WZs) but that doesn't mean that their current system is flawed.

[Laxbart]

Congratulations on winning the "Logical Fallacy Post of the Day!" award!

 

MLB Players are expected and required to use bats meeting certain criteria to assure "fair play" and "competitiveness" that are actually worse than the best available technology. The reason they get paid millions is because they can outperform others based on skill and is the reason that performance-enhancing drugs are banned as well.

 

Motorsports also feature strict rules for competitive balance.

 

PvP in this game should be no different. The advantages of skill, practice, experience, and teamwork from regularly playing with others should be the deciding factor - not whether you had more free time to "lose" your way up to top tier PvP gear (remember BW has said you will get Ranked Commendations whether you win or lose in Ranked Matches so people with horribly low ELO Ratings but a lot of time will still end up with the best gear).

 

I do agree they need a way for PvPers to be on an equal or better footing gear-wise than Raiders (especially when engaging in "organized" PvP like WZs or Ranked-WZs) but that doesn't mean that their current system is flawed.

 

No.. no... and... no =)

U again. Start to compare apples with... anything. In the HIGHEST league, things get equalled out. Yeah. Ofc. It's like having full t3 and playing against all the other full t3 players. THERE the dividing factor INDEED is the SKILL. Why? Because you just can't get more or better gear. Because it is not allowed (not programmed into the game) still if you could hack the game, you could make an item granting you all stats +10000 -> that would be those items "banned" out of reallife sport because the real world does not limit the beeings by any Datasheet but by everything the world has to offer ( Games also dont offer everything programming has to offer, also you COULD make a +10000 to all stats item )

 

You guys just fail at comparison =)

 

I only stated SWTOR is going the right way (if they add some more restrictions, like in real sports -> League, Elo, Brackets, Rank, Rating - just divide the players by GEAR and SKILL because both is a measureing factor. )

The only thing that fails is that League 1 players can just play against League 3 or 4 Players inside the "League-system" thats what fails instanced PVP.

All of you praising DAOC, why has no game ever tried the same way? Because PvP there was the most imbalanced **** ever. 1/10 players though it was the best PvP ever because they had time to farm PvE and time to farm a high RealmRank... that's so brutal for the causuals you seem to be... why?

 

In the league system every league will be equalled out by itself due to players beeing only able to play their way up and gain slight advantages over slightly the same "powered" team. Rise one League after another, one gear after another.

 

e.g. League 4 = new 50s, League 3 = tier1 (so only tier 1 obtainable while playing in league 3), League 2 = tier 2, League 4 = tier 4

 

Things just need to be adjusted for that (realmwide WZs etc)

[DaxRendar]

You guys just fail at comparison =)

 

...and I could make the same argument about you

 

The only thing that fails is that League 1 players can just play against League 3 or 4 Players inside the "League-system" thats what fails instanced PVP.

 

Thank you for agreeing with what people are saying in this thread

 

I only stated SWTOR is going the right way (if they add some more restrictions, like in real sports -> League, Elo, Brackets, Rank, Rating - just divide the players by GEAR and SKILL because both is a measureing factor. )...

 

In the league system every league will be equalled out by itself due to players beeing only able to play their way up and gain slight advantages over slightly the same "powered" team. Rise one League after another, one gear after another.

 

e.g. League 4 = new 50s, League 3 = tier1 (so only tier 1 obtainable while playing in league 3), League 2 = tier 2, League 4 = tier 4

 

Things just need to be adjusted for that (realmwide WZs etc)

 

Your solution doesn't work as there simply isn't the in-game population to support it. People already complain about queue times with them only segmenting the population into 1-49 and 50 Brackets. Imagine the increased level of consternation if they break it into Tiers by Gear as well?

 

Even with Cross Realm WZs imagine how that first "Full T3" Team is going to feel when they have nobody to be matched up against?

 

If you want to look at a successful model of how this can be done, look into Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2. Completely separate Builds/Gear/Loadouts for PvP. Accessible to everyone. Fair and Competitive Play.

 

That's how you make PvP an eSport

Edited March 14, 2012 by DaxRendar

[Elkirus]

A good player dosent need to outgear another to win.

 

Ranked should give you stuff to show off but not stuff to beat on lower geared players.

[Laxbart]

 

Even with Cross Realm WZs imagine how that first "Full T3" Team is going to feel when they have nobody to be matched up against?

 

 

As i already stated: In the upper realm ( 1st league ) the timeframe in which players will get their gear is almost the same. There wont be a "first full t3" team... maybe they get 10/10 t3 items first... still the second team will have 9/10 almost 10th completed... like all others too.

 

One does not simply compete with the best just because you think u are as good. You aren't or you also would have 9/10 t3... you wouldnt be complaining because you would play the *********** game! And yeah i work, i have a girlfriend, i meet with my friends every weekend, i started playing SWTOR a month after release and i still managed to gain full BM gear without much time spent - unlike in WoW where it took ages to gain 1 item.

If such a occupied gamer can do it with like no effort... why are you complaining? Rank 60 is easy as hell, you get thrown after your gear from the first WZ's on. The difference between the easy to obtain t2 pvp gear and the t3 is almost not existant.... and u still... still... want what exactly? PvP Players also want PROGRESS in the game not just their looks! (though it would be cool if the last - and really hard to get items would be "style only")

 

Yeah... Guild Wars PvP was soooo successful... i stopped playing after 1 week =)

 

Well i just wont get it... u guys complaining are the first to unsubscribe. And i hope u will do it fast, because u are just causual gamers - real gamers do not complain about well executed upgrades.

You guys dont want to do real PvP (u can do it now already) all u want is "**** i want to play 1 hour a week and still be as good as PvP Players who invest 10+ hours a day to get where they want to be. Even if they have to fight way better equipped teams.

 

I on the other hands say: Go forth Bioware, i love SWTOR the way it is =)

And yeah. Mysteriously i beat BM geared players with my T1 PvP equipped twink And i also bashed BM equipped groups with my main and 2 underequipped players.

At the end those items just grant stats - your skill will still decide. Until u meet people of the same skill level u already will have maxed out or almost maxed out ur gear.

 

Of course its not perfectly balanced but it is fair as it is: Same amount of players against same amount of players.

If you want Items to vanish out of PvP look at how other games did do it: RO - Guildcastles/Guildwar (IMHO best solution for any MMORPG, if ur a successful guild u will want one of those hard to get castles ) and straight up a "Mosh-pit" where u just battle each other.

DAOC -> Give a own "PvP Progess Tree" where u can gain super powerful active and passive skills like 50% more dmg for 10sec, 50% faster casting, straight up 10% less dmg, another CC-Break (or maybe 2 or 3 more the higher u get).... but this would have to offer at least 30 different skills (more likely a double as big skilltree as level progress tree is) so u have all the stats combined in the gear inside a skilltree (doink and again, it is the same as gear is somehow )

 

What do you guys want to offer PvP Players instead of just "style" because just "style" is not a motivational factor for most serious gamers. Its just the kind of game u play. If this would be a ego shooter id say: YES UR RIGHT!

But MMORPGs were always bound to equip because this is what makes an RPG an RPG, u can equip and level your toon - u can make him wear strange stuff. U have a big weapon with like "uh i deal tons of dmg" or you have a weapon like "i poke u so often u wont even decipher the numers". You can have a Mage or a Warrior.

 

Guild Wars was too much "Shooter"-Like for me. I hated it that i couldnt level my toon well and everyone was like the same. Noone was saying "damn ur class is good" because well, you didnt even need to level to do pvp... thats not whats a MMORPG is about. It's about, gear, level, looks, and... ENDGAMECONTENT... not GAMECONTENT. Because u will need to reach the endgame before u can hope for this content. In CS u just decide in the beginning of each round what u want to become (Sniper etc.) While in an MMORPG u decide on character creation in which kind of direction u go. From there on you have to "build" your toon.

 

For u guys this solution would be best: You cant level, u create a toon and be lvl 50. You cant gain gear, u create a toon and he is already equipped with everything the game has to offer. You are causuals - so u wont reach the "style items" so... u have nothing to do since u cant achieve a ****. You unsubscribe. Ahhh and: There is only one skilltree with 30 skills and u have 30 skillpoints to spent. So everything is fair now. Everyone skilled the same way. Everyone geared the same way.

SWTOR wouldve been dead already if it were made like u guys want it. And prolly only the 15 persons crying in this thread would be playing it. DANG - no - you wouldn't!

 

Now what is the right solution? I think we should let the programmers decide, what will improve the game. Since they did program a game we like playing And they will do what they can to improve it, or they loose money and probably their job, which most programmers love doing.

Don't understand how you guys are so hostile against the only system that proved to be as competetive and fair as possible without loosing the "RPG"-flair.

WoW has proven that on this system - the highest amount of active people in the world seem to like this "WoW" or "grind"-like System better then ur "i dont have to do anything to be as good as anyone"-like System, especially in the asian room.

 

Grinding is not bad... it's actually fun (although you need a lot of MOTIVATION - this seperates most players). Ur attitude towards it is what fails it. Ur casual "i want to gain everything without investing anything" attitude was destroying games since some time now. Let's stop it here and go back to the good old grind RPGs that we all loved so much when we had more time to spend =)

If you play MMORPGs and ur too lazy to grind. Go play shooters! Or Guild wars! Or programm ur own SW MMORPG for free and do it like U want.

A MMORPG toon is something like a "THAT MUCH TIME I HAVE INVESTED"-Label, not just a meatball to play with :>

 

I'm so frustrated about this post here. Already thinking about unsubscription because u guys turn me inside out and make me loose interest in this game. You will probably make the game so bad because you cry enough for Bioware to take it for real and then it will just go worse and worse like WoW did. They also just wanted to make the game like those cry kiddies wanted - resulting in the destuction of the coolest MMORPG ever (CLASSIC WOW: 40 MAN RAIDS - GONE BECAUSE CRY, THE DYNAMIC PVP-SYSTEM WITH RANKS - GONE BECAUSE CRY - ARENAS AND THIS BG OVERUSE - IMPLEMENTED BECAUSE OF CRY)

 

LET THE PEOPLE WHO INVENTED THIS GAME IMPROVE IT. THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING!

Edited March 15, 2012 by Laxbart

[jerramieD]

that is crazy of you to say! you are not playing the tape all the way to the end! We DEFINATELY need that gear! esp since the game is gettign dangerously close to being a failure. I will say.. there are some very OP situations in pvp and I agree changes need to be made but none of it matters unless SWTOR allows transfers and there are cross realm/server pvp-wz AND FP/raid Q'n. I fear the end is in site!

[Wetworks]

I would gladly play pvp with no reward of gear.

 

Not saying some rewards wouldnt be cool, ranks, titles....

 

100% agree w/you & op.

[Anrew]

I honestly believe it's not the majority. But neither of us can prove this at the moment.

 

To my mind, however, the people who get bored when there's no more gear incentive for PvPing are people who really shouldn't be PvPing in the first place, because they're doing it for all the wrong reasons. But then again, I guess that makes me sound like somebody trying to make the argument that Christmas shouldn't be about receiving gifts.

 

Me, personally, I have never, ever PvPed for what I could gain from it. I've only ever PvPed because it's fun. If it weren't, I wouldn't do it. Maybe that's the larger problem. If people really think PvP isn't fun enough that doing it is its own reward, then giving them more shinies is only ever going to satiate them for a very short time. I really think these aren't the people to whom you should be catering.

 

The irony is that for every player you retain because you're giving him another piece of gear for which to strive, you may very well be driving away two players who get frustrated because they're perpetually undergeared and always at a disadvantage. This is exactly what happened to Age of Conan.

 

I'll admit I'm not a big pvper, but working towards gear does motivate me, although not that much since I was valor 50 before someone in my guild got lvl 50 and he is now a bm and I'm still at 54 valor (maybe its still not enough for me to pvp all the time). In most cases I think pvp gear should give a different kind of advantage like click to break a stun or snare. Don't do that though, because there is enough people who still freak out about being chain stunned etc. But something to contribute to what a class's role is in pvp. If Ilum worked something like lotro's pvmp then "maybe" something the break snare/stun thing wouldn't be bad.

 

Also someone on this page mentioned that gear doesn't matter in pvp (apologize for not knowing your name and easier for me to just do one quote). I would argue that perhaps objective wise it doesn't but surviving one on one expertise plays a large part. Its amazing how much dmg i can heal myself through as a sage when im being pounded and i pop the expertise adreanal. So yes skill is very important, but in pvp gear does play a part.

 

I honestly don't get everyones doom and gloom with this game. Honestly what do people expect 3 months into launch? Hell even games that have been around for 10 years still have bugs, get new content released that is buggy, or new update causes server issues or things seem unbalanced.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Anrew

[Jaxtaro]

Here's my problem.

 

If gear can make up for and accommodate for class imbalances, then it's better to have gear make up for it than to simply allow such insane class imbalance ruin the game for people. When you remove gear from the equation, then it's only about your choice at character select, which is harder for me to swallow than that someone earned some gear and made themselves better, transcending innate class imbalances.

 

Until BW fixes classes (and they CERTAINLY fail in 1.2 so far), then the only way to compensate is through pvp gear.