I hate the Republic now more than ever...

[Lordgeneral]

So you enjoy working for an Emperor who wants to kill everyone, including the Sith, just to absorb their power?

 

That isn't true if you play the story you will realise that you

 

 

Become the Emperors Wrath, his own personal agent amongst all other sith and listen to him alone, not even the dark council commands you, he has more plans than consuming things for power but you need to play the story.

 

[Darth_Solrac]

Ugh why can't people see this? THERE IS EVIL, CORRUPTION, HYPOCRISY ON BOTH SIDES.

 

Advantage Empire in that they are indeed more honest, & upfront bout their threats, crimes, & willingness to do whatever they deem necessary. The stagnant debate, indecisiveness, & weak willed corruption of the majority of the Republic Senators I'm sure to see when I RP a Jedi Knight will only make me making him a dark one sweeter.

 

I do fully believe that the Republic would commit crimes similar to the Empire's if they knew they could still somehow preserve their 'moral high ground', if it would win them a war tomorrow, etc.

 

All in all, it's just more fun playing Empire....sue me.

[Darth_Solrac]

I think its obvious that if it were real life, we would all be Republic and rooting for them to win unless you are a psychopath.

 

Its just that in the virtual game world, the rest of sane people get to indulge in some of our darker sides when we play Empire.

 

No one in the right mind would actually want something like the Empire to succeed in the real world.

 

.......^^This.^^l

 

(Sorry for the double post.)

Edited March 5, 2012 by Darth_Solrac

[smartalectwo]

I have a feeling that some people prefer the Empire because the Empire allows them to feel better about themselves - 'I'm better than most of these people'. Whereas being amongst the Republic and the Jedi makes folk uncomfortable, as the Jedi and Republic have solid principles that they at least try to live up to. So people need to point to the times the Republic and Jedi fail, and insist that this is the whole truth - so they can feel better about themselves again.

[Temeluchus]

So the Republic is clearly heroic and would never intentionally or unintentionally do anything bad or commit acts of genocide. Hmmm:

 

 

Voss: the Jedi instruct the Gormak in the ways of the Force and inadvertently create the Voss. The Voss run around thinking they are better than the non Force sensitive Gormak they were once part of and touch off a war that has raged for centuries.

 

Sure, the Jedi didn't set out to do harm but as they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

Revan: There is a lot of Republic support going through the Foundry. Revan's plan is to unleash droids on the galaxy that will kill 99% of anyone with a drop of Sith blood, this includes Republic descendants of the original Fallen Jedi who never went to the darkside or wanted anything to do with them,anyone who has Sith heritage yet may be a loyal Republican, any converts or defectors to the Republic that maybe trying to bring down the Empire.

 

Being conservative, if Revan is allowed to succeed billions on the Imperial side die, and hundreds of millions in the Republic die as well(remember, one drop of Sith blood). Compare that to the Emperor, who if allowed to succeed, would kill the everything in the whole galaxy and The Emperor gets the slight lead for Conductor of the Crazy Train.

 

Bounty Hunter: Not only does the Republic run a public smear campaign against the BH based upon lies and the slightest smidgen of truth, they wantonly slaughter anyone associated with the BH. This includes innocent civilian party goers on NS as well as others.

 

This is resolved by the Supreme Chancellor saying "oops sorry about that, didn't realize my second in command was lying and that far out of control, so before you do/don't kill me I wanted to say sorry and don't worry I'll clear your name."

 

Balmorra: Cheketta uses Republic personnel and equipment to start a resistance movement. When it starts to come crashing down around him he clearly violates the Treaty and calls in actual Republic and Jedi troop support to bolster his resistance.

 

Great Hyperspace War: the Republic defeats the Empire with help from Sith infighting. Victory isn't good enough, they decide to invade Sith space in reprisal and systematically move from planet to planet destroying anything Sith and killing all those they find on the planets.

 

The Master Jedi in the timeline vids explicitly says he can't help but wonder if the Republic's actions during the Great Hyperspace War led them to the state the galaxy is in today.

 

 

 

 

Those are just a few examples,there are many,many more. It's easy to claim that the Sith are evil, because the are overt about what they do and how they rule. Defending the Republic as almost utopian or bashing people for claiming the Empire isn't psychotically evil is just silly at best.

 

Look at both factions as varying shades of gray, you can't really call one side truly good or the other side truly evil.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Temeluchus

[undeadsithdread]

I have a feeling that some people prefer the Empire because the Empire allows them to feel better about themselves - 'I'm better than most of these people'. Whereas being amongst the Republic and the Jedi makes folk uncomfortable, as the Jedi and Republic have solid principles that they at least try to live up to. So people need to point to the times the Republic and Jedi fail, and insist that this is the whole truth - so they can feel better about themselves again.

 

not really because everyone finds republic itself as boring because the perfect good guys and lack of flaws there is no fun or enjoyable besides about how awesome being republic and jedi are.

 

 

i know some people would rather play the rebel alliance over the republic because flawed complex characters faction are a lot more enjoyable then flawess good guys.

 

face it the Senators are the only thing makes republic fun.

Edited March 5, 2012 by undeadsithdread

[smartalectwo]

Look at both factions as varying shades of gray, you can't really call one side truly good or the other side truly evil.

 

I'm... pretty sure you could call the Sith Empire truly evil. Maybe there are good people amongst the teeming billions, but looking at their society as a whole, it doesn't encourage those traits at all. Quite the opposite. Those good people in the Empire are in spite of it, not because of it.

 

On the other hand, there are evil people in the Republic. But those good people you meet in there live by the Republic's ideals. Some people choose to do evil in the Republic, but those people have turned against those ideals and most of the ones you meet, you can turn in or deal with lawfully.

 

You can pick out individual examples. But taking both cultures as a whole, I would have said it's more grey vs. black than grey vs. grey.

 

not really because everyone finds republic itself as boring because the perfect good guys and lack of flaws there is no fun or enjoyable besides about how awesome being republic and jedi is.

 

But there are lots of flaws, and it's very easy to play a flawed Republic character. But as I said, I think some people would be more comfortable being a bad person trying to be good sometimes, than as a good person struggling with being bad.

Edited March 5, 2012 by smartalectwo

[VincentWolf]

Yeah it took me quite a few days of playing this game to see republic's true colors and I fixed most of it on my trooper by the time I've finished my class quest line. Kicked empire *** on so many levels, I'm surprised they still holding up.

And it took me barely few minutes to see empire's true colors, stupid backstabbing unreliable selfish idiots. Both factions have it's black and white, but at least if I really was my character, as a jedi (for example) I wouldn't expect my padawan to backstab me and take my place at the first possibility no matter how much we been through, and I wouldn't expect to be executed just after one mistake after years of service. After all republic still has much more of my respect than empire (that's none, actually in imp case...).

[-sasori]

Playing a Sith Warrior developed in me a genuine dislike for the Republic.

 

 

.

 

I really *really* hate the Republic now. I feel no sympathy for any of the atrocities they are forced, or have been forced, to endure. You deserve(d) every minute of it.

 

 

You get to kill two senators along the way.

But it is really telling that as a trooper you are always around hunting down Republic Defectors and rescuing other special forces by messed up politics or SIS

 

I could swear that Imperial General in the end of the story line used to work forthe republic;)

 

[Spartanik]

This. What this person just posted ends this pointless thread. While both sides make poor or considered evil choices from time to time, the scale the empire weighs in on is far far outweighing the republic.

 

Pretty much, and when you know the emperor true nature that weight is even bigger.

[smartalectwo]

The Sith Empire has had hundreds of years to get into the heads of its people, to the point that even the average man on the street thinks that being ruled by the Sith - The SITH - is fine.

 

You might think that the Sith Empire is honest about wrongdoing, but they're not, not exactly. In the Republic, the criminals know they're criminals. The corrupt senators and the bloodthirsty trooppers have to find ways to rationalise what they've done, in order to deal with it. They know they're working against the law, even if they're able to live with it. The Sith Empire rewrites criminality and evil as if it was normal everyday life. It lets you think that there's no reason to feel guilty.

 

But there is. and that's why the Sith Empire is truly evil. The evil of individual senators cannot compare with a monstrous social construct like that.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Moitteva
removed quoted IC post

[Kronikswtor]

I'm baffled by how many people don't understand the basic differences between a fascist dictatorship and a democracy. The Empire is a fascist state, it has a strong ruling class influenced by the teachings of the Sith and that seems to be the biggest disconnect in this topic...the teachings of the Sith.

 

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.

Through passion, I gain strength.

Through strength, I gain power.

Through power, I gain victory.

Through victory, my chains are broken.

The Force shall free me.

 

Fascist societies aren't founded on murder, yes murder is more legitimate or more easily justified by the Empire but it's a means to an end. It's all there in the Sith code, you reject peace so you can go out into the world and affect it, to change the world you need strength to dominate and through dominance you achieve personnel power and ultimately freedom because no one else is powerful enough to dominate you. The sith code isn't murder everyone indiscrimently, but theres no compassion for the weak. Ultimately to be a great Sith you must live by your passions and have the strength to resist those who want to suppress your passions.

 

The Republic on the other hand has little place for personel freedoms, you must suppress your passions for the greater good. If I want to play my music exceptionally loudly and my neighbours complain then I must compromise, compromise is the foundation of democracy, two groups with two different views and objectives have to find a peaceful resolution and this ultimately leads to politics. Politics is mercurial, if politics was dominated by genuine alturists then there would be no third world famine, no poverty and no injustices but politics doesn't play out that way.

 

The problem all democracies have is that poltics is dominated by self interest and the Republic demonstrates this, some Senators are indeed corrupt and self serving but ultimately it's the impossible ideal of democracy that we cling to. The Republic is populated by corruption and inequality but there are genuinely people in there striving towards trying to make things better but ironically because of of democracy these people can't just shove it down peoples throats, they have to take part in the process and they have to compromise even on what is undeniably right.

 

When I first started playing I thought the main problem with the SWTOR universe is that the Republic is too goody goody and the Empire is completely one dimensional. Unfortunately the Empire is one dimensional....but only as one dimensional as your own understanding of methods of governence. Whilst slavery is accepted there is also the chance to live a life exactly how you want, to be completely free obviously what this translates to is that it sucks to be at the bottom but it's amazing to be at the top. The Empire isn't just rulers and slaves though, theres a middle class too, every Imp officer you meet is an aspiring memeber of the middle class, they are happy that the leadership has direction, they want to advance up the chain of command...acquire more power, move to a bigger house etc, without being Force sensitive you can't ascend to the upper class but that doesn't mean you can't have a decent life.....hell your never doing the house work again are you? Thats what slaves are for.

 

The Republic has it harder, it has to be strong but it can't be immoral. Playing through the Republic super weapons story it's easy to see that there are people in the Republic who want to cleanse the universe of the Sith and the Empire and so they build these ridiculous weapons, they build them to feel safe but thankfully they can never pull the trigger when it comes to using them. It's spineless and it seems duplicitous but thats what happens in a democracy, you get one voice saying "Look theres a force out there that wants to destroy us. We need to arm ourselves so we can defend our way of life!" they give in to fear and they build the antithisis of what we actually represent. But later theres another voice "What have we done!?....to use this thing just makes us exactly what our enemies are, if we use this then we may aswell have just surrendered in the first place because once we use this weapon we can never go back." Thankfully they listen to the second voice and we decommision the weapon....but we keep it. After all it makes us feel safe and well it cost alot of money and time....can't just throw that away!

 

In the end what SWTOR does quite well in it's story is demonstrate something everyone should know from the 20th century. Life is easier when you are being told what to do, you can be perfectly happy in that structure providing your not at the bottom, but we have to strive to be better than that. We have to stick to our morals or people will suffer, we have to stop making the easy choices and start making the sacrifices it takes to keep our world sane, to keep it fair. We never really achieve our goals but we aspire to keep trying and thats what seperates a Democracy from Fascism, the end never justifies the means.

[undercat]

The problem all democracies have is that poltics is dominated by self interest and the Republic demonstrates this[.]

 

The thing is, the Republic *isn't* a democracy. It's a confederacy, some member units of which are democratic, some of which aren't. Its Senators are, for the most part, appointed - despite the name, the Galactic Senate is closer to the UN General Assembly than it is the US Senate.

 

Certain planets do seem to have democratic forms of government. Coruscant, f'rex, elects its Senator (though given the amount of criminality we see in game as well as the inability till the PC comes along to provide water, sanitation and power to segments of its populace ten years after that infrastructure was destroyed, it may come close to being a failed state. And given both the size of its population and the historic depiction of Coruscant as having a huge divide between the haves and the have-nots, it wouldn't surprise me if much of the population was disenfranchised.)

 

Ord Mantell had an extremely corrupt, crony democracy going before its government went against the will of the people when it decided to stay with the Republic and war broke out. Given that level of corruption, it wouldn't be surprising if past elections had been rigged. Then at some point, the Republic joined the civil war and put troops on the ground - with the stated goal of keeping the planet in the Republic, not of keeping the peace or protecting the population from atrocities (which continued to happen and were occasionally perpetrated by Republic troops). Ord Mantell is currently a failed state, and failing hard, with no functioning government.

 

Tython (which may not even be a member of the Republic, but it is a Republic-only planet in game) is a planet-wide monastery. And ho-boy, if you thought the US treated illegal immigrants poorly... The Jedi and the Republic seem to be just fine with letting the Twi'lek pilgrims be abducted and eaten alive by the Flesh Raiders. It's the Jedi PC that stops the Flesh Raider attacks, before which, the Council seemed perfectly fine with making some disapproving noises but nothing more. (Yuon even said something about disagreeing with the Council but not challenging them, despite, ya know, people being murdered). Should also mention here the late-game development of the Jedi being placed in charge of the Republic's armies, rather than being under the control of the civilian government (and that said, we don't see the separation between civilian government and military hierarchy seen in modern Earth democracies).

 

Alderaan, though not currently a member of the Republic, historically has been an extremely important and influential one, and it doesn't even pretend to be a democracy. It's a straight-up feudal monarchy, currently warring over which family will control the throne.

 

Corellia, the last influential Republic planet we see in game, does possibly have democratic elements - there's a cabinet and a Prime Minister (that said, we don't know if those members are elected, appointed by a democratically elected representative body, or appointed by corporations). But corporations are also extremely powerful, far more so than in the modern first world. It reminded me of a less dystopian Shadowrun. So corporate oligarchy, possibly with some democratic flair?

 

Not meaning to defend the Empire, btw, nor meaning either to attack or defend the Republic either (though I will say that Belsavis has a whole new level of evil on Gitmo. At least I hope Gitmo doesn't have a bunch of Dr Mengeles running around, performing horrific experiments on inmates). Just saying that the Republic as portrayed in game is not a democracy, though some of its member states are.

[Kronikswtor]

The thing is, the Republic *isn't* a democracy.

 

Fair nuff, you will have to forgive me on the semantics lol, I'm pretty new to the deeper elements of SW lore but what your saying makes complete sense. Either way though it translates to the same thing, the Republic has a cumbersome method of governence that results in inconsistencies and an ethical mess whilst the Empire is rather consistent.

[LyriaFrost]

When I first started playing I thought the main problem with the SWTOR universe is that the Republic is too goody goody and the Empire is completely one dimensional. Unfortunately the Empire is one dimensional....but only as one dimensional as your own understanding of methods of governence. Whilst slavery is accepted there is also the chance to live a life exactly how you want, to be completely free obviously what this translates to is that it sucks to be at the bottom but it's amazing to be at the top. The Empire isn't just rulers and slaves though, theres a middle class too, every Imp officer you meet is an aspiring memeber of the middle class, they are happy that the leadership has direction, they want to advance up the chain of command...acquire more power, move to a bigger house etc, without being Force sensitive you can't ascend to the upper class but that doesn't mean you can't have a decent life.....hell your never doing the house work again are you? Thats what slaves are for.

 

Here's the problem with this paragraph, though...

 

There isn't "the chance to live a life exactly how you want" in the empire. You have zero ability to just exist and live however you'd like. Not even if you're sith. You must act in a certain manner, or you'll get snuffed out. It's a culture that breeds paranoia and a lack of true connection with one another. Relax for a moment as one of the people at the top? Get knocked off by the rest of the people who want your position/office/cd collection.

 

What the empire has is a small number of people with absolute power (the sith), another small group that has some vestige of power (imperial military officers, imperial intelligence), and the other 99% who are essentially fodder (ordinary citizens) or slaves.

 

Essentially it sucks to be non-sith within the empire. The sith can -- and have demonstrated that they WILL -- execute you, for any reason if they feel like it. Don't kowtow fast enough? Force choked/litghtning'd to death. Bump into a sith as he charges through a narrow hallway? They scream at you and kill you right there for "daring to touch them". Etc, etc.

 

I'd argue that a lot of the officers AREN'T happy about the leadership. Mostly because they're not really given leeway to do their jobs without the sith poking their fat noses into things, and trying to micromanage, thinking that they know better. The agent's storyline has a number of instances of this. And you see a lot of grumbling about the sith from the military when the sith aren't around to kill them for daring to speak up.

 

So it's not quite that it "sucks to be at the bottom" (which it does), it's more like "it sucks to not be at the very top". And even at the top it kind of sucks. Upward mobility for non-force users is almost non-existent. The only way you MIGHT move up is if you try and go into the military or intelligence, and even then you're still under the risk of being randomly killed for no reason by some whiny sith in a moment of pique.

 

It's a rather sick society.

Edited March 5, 2012 by LyriaFrost

[Xenedus]

Here's the problem with this paragraph, though...

 

There isn't "the chance to live a life exactly how you want" in the empire. You have zero ability to just exist and live however you'd like. Not even if you're sith. You must act in a certain manner, or you'll get snuffed out. It's a culture that breeds paranoia and a lack of true connection with one another. Relax for a moment as one of the people at the top? Get knocked off by the rest of the people who want your position/office/cd collection.

 

What the empire has is a small number of people with absolute power (the sith), another small group that has some vestige of power (imperial military officers, imperial intelligence), and the other 99% who are essentially fodder (ordinary citizens) or slaves.

 

Essentially it sucks to be non-sith within the empire. The sith can -- and have demonstrated that they WILL -- execute you, for any reason if they feel like it. Don't kowtow fast enough? Force choked/litghtning'd to death. Bump into a sith as he charges through a narrow hallway? They scream at you and kill you right there for "daring to touch them". Etc, etc.

 

I'd argue that a lot of the officers AREN'T happy about the leadership. Mostly because they're not really given leeway to do their jobs without the sith poking their fat noses into things, and trying to micromanage, thinking that they know better. The agent's storyline has a number of instances of this. And you see a lot of grumbling about the sith from the military when the sith aren't around to kill them for daring to speak up.

 

So it's not quite that it "sucks to be at the bottom" (which it does), it's more like "it sucks to not be at the very top". And even at the top it kind of sucks. Upward mobility for non-force users is almost non-existent. The only way you MIGHT move up is if you try and go into the military or intelligence, and even then you're still under the risk of being randomly killed for no reason by some whiny sith in a moment of pique.

 

It's a rather sick society.

 

This is a problem with the Empire that even the Sith recognize. This is partly what Malgus was trying to change when he made his bid to come to power. The main reason crap like this continues is that the head honcho of the Empire practically never makes an appearance and that leads to all the other sith fighting over control of everything. Because the dark council is constantly changing and most members of the council got there by being bigger monsters than the person before them they aren't liable to change anything either.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Xenedus

[DaWaffle]

Here's my 2 cents on it.

 

People rolling as Imperials are fully aware of the Empire's reputation and so expect atrocities to occur often. Therefore, they don't bat an eyelash when someone has a slave, or tortures someone else for information. They just consider it part of the culture

 

When they encounter someone from the Republic (i.e, "The Good Guys") who does this, it immediately strikes them as off. It doesn't occur to them that this person is the exception to the otherwise good rule.

 

If the reverse were to happen with a character from the Empire, (Say, meeting a good person in a sea of Evil) it just seems to back up their claims.

 

Like I said, just my 2 cents.

[ByronixHero]

Why people even bother to mention the Empire's honesty about being evil, is quite beyond me. They're goddamn evil, at least those leading them are.

As for the OP. Unless you're not living on Earth, I though I'd add that that's how politics work. The politicians behind them in many cases have to "backstab" them, or they risk greater consequences. One operation failing is minute compared to the destruction that could happen should open hostilities commence. Just because Havok is an elite squad, doesn't make them any less expendable.

Claiming the Empire holds the moral high ground because it's leaders are honest about failure's ramifications (which 95% of the time is firing squad and an unmarked grave, if any) is a stupid notion.

[Duduneco]

The biggest difference between the Empire and the Republic is that at least the Empire is honest and upfront about your lot in life.

 

The republic is far more sinister than anything the Empire has to offer up.

 

Play The sith inquisitor story line. If you played, then you would think the republic is an angel compared to The Empire in The Inquisitor story.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Duduneco

[soulself]

I have to agree, after a visit to Belsalvis as a republic player i am pretty sure that the republic ain't good at all, i mean sure the empire are jerks but they are up front about it.. but

 

 

The republic tossing people in jail and making the kids born in that prison stay in jail just cause of what their parents did is really messed up

 

 

that along would make any jedi i roll a tad on the dark side cause no way in hell anyone with any common sense would go along with that.

Edited March 6, 2012 by soulself

[Shackleforde]

Empire=bad Republic=good, simple as that

[soulself]

Empire=bad Republic=good, simple as that

 

I disagree.

 

Republic = tries to look like they are good but has many corrupt people running it

 

Empire = Looks bad and has corrupt people running it, Playing though the Imperial agent story line you can get the sense that the empire would not be half as bad if it was not for psychotic sith leering over them.

 

 

that's another thing i always find funny is people that say the sith aren't evil, sure there are a few that are good but the majority are evil. and please don't go with that whole different points of view crap.

 

for example a guy back talks you and you calmly point out your point of view and explain what is wrong that is the good way to handle thing, on the other hand shocking them chocking them and stabbing them repeatedly is the evil way to handle things.

[Daskillz]

Empire=bad Republic=good, simple as that

 

Ever run Hammer Station, keep in mind that it was made by the republic. Nobody is perfect and both have their downsides it is just that the Empire is like yeah we don't care for aliens and we are ok with slavery while the republic can say one thing and do another.

 

So there is not really a good I guess one can argue that republic is the lesser of the two evils but I even wouldn't agree with that.

 

I will say that the Empires Structure is unmatched. From the Sith Warrior Story line and what I did of the IA story line it really seems like the people who want to be in the Dark Council are more sinister than the Sith that are actually on the Dark Council. I found it quite ironic in that.

[Meharial]

 

I will say that the Empires Structure is unmatched. From the Sith Warrior Story line and what I did of the IA story line it really seems like the people who want to be in the Dark Council are more sinister than the Sith that are actually on the Dark Council. I found it quite ironic in that.

 

This. Many on the Dark Council come across as being somewhat level headed, cunning and collectively do a decent job of keeping the Empire on track without making the Emperor come back from his vacation to slap them all down. Nearly everyone else with the slightest amount of ambition is also ******* insane.

[bookist]

So why are people saying the Empire is better because it is honest? Yes the Republic does have it's problems, but the Empire does there things on a much larger scale. Then because it is honest about it it does them larger. Oh, but it's ok because the Empire at least admits to its faults...