Jugg vs PT: The Fundamental Difference

[Prolyfic]

The Golden Rule: The Shieldtech is a Resist-based Proactive Tank.

 

The two key words in this statement are Resist and Proactive. These two words are what establishes the playstyle of the Shieldtech tank as it relates to the playstyle of the other SWTOR tanks. Let's take a look at each in detail below.

 

 

Resist

- A Resist-based tank is one of two approaches to damage mitigation in MMOs (the second being a defense-based tank such as the juggernaut). The foundation of a resist-based tank is to reduce the damage of incoming attacks as much as possible, whereas the foundation of a defense-based tank is to

avoid

as many incoming attacks as possible.

 

This is best illustrated by looking at the following example 10 seconds (7 GCDs) of incoming damage on both types of tanks.

 

Defense Tank

: Miss, Miss, 1500, Miss, 3200, 1500, Miss

Total DPS unmitigated:

620

 

Resist Tank

: 500, 500, 500, 1600, 1600, 750, 750

Total DPS unmitigated:

620

 

As evident in the example above, the

defense tank

takes less frequent, heavier hits (or more burst dmg) and the

resist tank

takes more frequent, weaker hits (or more

consistent

dmg). The Key to mastering the Shieldtech class lies in ones understanding of this specific concept and how it relates to build, ability use, and stat distribution. This brings us to our second key word because the real strength from playing a

resist tank

is revealed when one utilizes a

Proactive

playstyle.

 

 

 

Proactive

- The concept of playing

proactively

is most easily explained as the opposite of playing

Reactively

, meaning you use key defensive abilities to diminish the effect of large bursts of damage

before the damage occurs

. Alternatively a

reactive

tank will

respond on demand

to those large bursts, instead of attempting to predict them and prepare for them.

This explains why

Resist

,

Proactive

Tanks have such defensive cooldowns as +10% health over 15s. Which seems lack luster to the sudden instant burst heal of the Juggernaut tank. The difference is in the combination of factors, not in the individual comparison between abilities though, as Juggs are much more likely to take a single large hit that they NEED to heal back from - a

proactive

shieldtech will

never

get hit that hard to begin with.

 

In another example, Shieldtechs receive a shield that

reduces

incoming dmg whereas Juggs receive a shield that

prevents

incoming dmg. On the surface, these two abilities are not equally useful. But when you factor in the

resist

-based philosophy of the shieldtech and utilize

proactive

use of this ability, its value raises immensely.

 

Shieldtechs using this shield to stack onto already impressive resistance numbers need

very

little additional healing to maintain. Whereas a Jugg will tend to save his total

defense

shield for when he needs to

avoid

losing health

completely and immediately

- such as after a big crit chain. The shieldtechs shield does very little to save the shieldtech who just got crit chained with no defensive abilities active, however. The shieldtech who had his shield on when he was crit barely notices any spike dmg at all.

 

 

 

While the concepts above may seem fairly elementary to more experienced players, it's of vital importance to understand and deeply evaluate the differences between a playstyle that focuses on "

absorbing and resisting

" dmg, versus one that focuses on "

dodging and avoiding

" damage as our last example details below.

 

For this final example, we'll look at an ability outside of the BH class - The Sorceror's Static Barrier bubble buff which outright prevents incoming dmg for its duration. When applied to a jugg this strengthens his strengths and allows him greater defense, but when applied to a PT it actually causes him to overheat potentially reducing dmg output, agro, AND survivability! This is because shieldtech's Vent Heat ability procs off of

shielding hits

, so we actually WANT to keep the attacks incoming consistently to continue venting heat (just also keep the dmg on them low).

 

A Shieldtech that is unaware of these conflicting strategies may suffer unnecessarily low performance if they unwittingly group with sorcerers who bubble the whole fight. It took me WEEKS to figure out why a friend's Sorceror was a worse healer for my PT than the same friend's Operative. It was the bubble abuse causing me to overheat and die on trash pulls kicking my repair bills through the roof. A better understanding of the fundamentals of Shieldtech could have prevented that frustration, and I see a lot of people on this board who seem to be at the same place I was when I started my Shieldtech, so I wished to share what I learned since then.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Prolyfic

[Kalikin]

Thanks for the info, very helpfull

[pure_laced]

While this is known to the more skilled players, it is a very well written explanation between the two. Kudos.

 

Post this on the Sorc forum as well so the healers have a clue.

[akhra]

Thank you for this write up it should help out our healers, and my heat

[OlosBC]

Overall good information, though i think you're wrong about the sorc bubble.

 

It's not a defense boost, it's a damage absorb dependent on their bonus healing, and is rather good and efficient, especially since it's instant and can be used proactively.

 

The bubble is a flat 3k-4k damage absorb, and even if armor and shield dont apply to the bubble, which i dont believe to be the case, it's still a survivability bonus.

 

Also, since none of PTs defensive abilities/stats require heat or are affected by heat, you can't die from overheating. Overheating is bad and you can lose agro from it, thus possibly wiping the party, but you personally won't die as a direct result of overheating.

 

Oh and one ability that DOES give you +defense (effectively) is your own oil slick, as it reduces target's chance to hit. And if you're not using ot during hard hitting phases or on cooldown because you're worried about overheating, you're bad.

 

 

For reference i main a PT tank, currently 9/10 NMM after starting ops 3 or 4 weeks ago, and i almost always have a sorc healer with me. My alt is also a sorc.

[Pinnick]

Good writeup for those that do not know the difference between the classes.

 

Thanks for educating and sharing the knowledge.

[Prolyfic]

The bubble is a flat 3k-4k damage absorb, and even if armor and shield dont apply to the bubble, which i dont believe to be the case, it's still a survivability bonus.

 

Oh and one ability that DOES give you +defense (effectively) is your own oil slick, as it reduces target's chance to hit. And if you're not using ot during hard hitting phases or on cooldown because you're worried about overheating, you're bad.

 

I apologize for that bit of confusion, but its really semantics. I will fix above. Though the sorc shield is still "absorbing dmg" as per the description, its not "reducing" it like a resist tank would like. it is still outright "preventing" the dmg from coming into the mitigation calculation (much more like +defense does when you dont have the bubble buff, since its the top of the calculation)... that prevents shield from proccing completely til its out and prevents heat from dissipating the entire time the bubble is on you.

 

Our oil slick makes all mobs miss 1/4th of the time. Unlike the bubble, there are still numerous incoming hits reaching mitigation and potentially getting shielded. while yes, it is still +defense, we still vent the same amount of heat if there are 4 or more mobs hitting us at once (due to the vent heats proc cd).

 

in short, the sorc shield prevents venting completely and the oil slick reduces it, but only when you're not fighting enough mobs (when you are fighting fewer mobs, you have much less overheating anyway so its impact on your venting is negligible)

 

Also, since none of PTs defensive abilities/stats require heat or are affected by heat, you can't die from overheating.

 

Directly, yes, but indirectly that's not true at all.. When I die, it's not because I run up heat and can't taunt. It's because I run up heat and lose agro due to reduction of dps. When the healers have to swap to dps to keep them up, it stresses them and makes it harder to keep up the tank. it's not a direct no heat = death. it's indirect, no heat = less agro = less incoming heals = death. Also while more rare, you do need heat to interrupt and there have been cases where I have died due to being too overheated to interrupt a important boss attack after being shielded.

 

For reference i main a PT tank, currently 9/10 NMM after starting ops 3 or 4 weeks ago, and i almost always have a sorc healer with me.

 

please dont take it personally, I'm not at all implying PT tanks cannot be successful with a sorc healer. I am only showing people how the different tanks receive different levels of benefit from different buffs mechanically, and helping people to understand why and how their tank works.

 

if you are running NM with a steady sorc healer, you don't need this info anyway

Edited March 1, 2012 by Prolyfic

[OlosBC]

Ill see about running a test tonight, but I'd be willing to bet that shield can indeed proc with bubble up.

 

With any amount of appreciable incoming damage, the bubble will not last any longer than a second or two, so even if it does prevent shielding, it would only delay the next proc by a couple seconds.

 

Ptech aoe is easy, and doesnt really factor in to boss fights anyway. Just make sure dps kill normals first and then u dont have to worry about them other than tagging em to keep em off healers.

[Mastermavrick]

nicely said , though i myself don't mind shields to mitigated some damage when i know i have a threat lead. Helps a lot of HM Foreman crusher & Fabricator for frenzies / 10stack+damage buff when in concert with oil slick & energy shield.

[Ashikuro]

Interesting post. So what are people's experiences like with hard mode/nightmare ops tanking? Everyone I hear is telling me Jugg is the way to go for harder difficulty ops tanking. What issues do you guys see? I would think the limited heat mechanic would really limit threat and the "resist" vs "defense" tanking also seems like it could be a limiter.

[Ashikuro]

Interesting post. So what are people's experiences like with hard mode/nightmare ops tanking? Everyone I hear is telling me Jugg is the way to go for harder difficulty ops tanking. What issues do you guys see? I would think the limited heat mechanic would really limit threat and the "resist" vs "defense" tanking also seems like it could be a limiter.

[Badhand]

Sweet Jebus. An MMO player that can write English sentences, and knows the difference between "their, they're, there" and "your, you're".

 

I may swoon.

 

Also, thanks for the great analysis.

[thorizdin]

Interesting post. So what are people's experiences like with hard mode/nightmare ops tanking? Everyone I hear is telling me Jugg is the way to go for harder difficulty ops tanking. What issues do you guys see? I would think the limited heat mechanic would really limit threat and the "resist" vs "defense" tanking also seems like it could be a limiter.

 

All of the tanks work in Operations about equally, which is actually pretty impressive. I know we've done HM with all three and NiM with Jug & Sin. (Our PT wasn't geared enough.) I have no doubt that PT can do NiM as well, we just aren't running them regularly because we still have people being geared up.

[OlosBC]

I maintank as a powertech and have had no class related issues. Was having a bit of threat troubles when our dps started getting rakata weapons and i was still rocking tionese, but that's mostly fixed now that I have columi. My survivability has definitely been fine.

[Faydra]

I've been running around as a PT tank with my sorc healer husband and have only run FPs with him healing me. Since I've been dragging my feet/savoring the story, I'm not 50 yet.

 

I haven't had an issue with overheating in the regular/leveling FPs we've run (mostly with our one friend and companions).

 

Is this because all my tanking has been done wtih him bubbling me and I've always been compensating my heat around that? Or is it because in the FPs we've done, it's not really been an issue (though, two-manning Hammer Station at level was interesting...).

 

Will this be an issue for HM FPs (which I'll be able to do very shortly)?

[Shatterstar]

Starting a fight with the bubble on isn't usually a problem, especially for boss fights. It is the "bubble and re-bubble as soon as I can" crowd that make life difficult for a shield tech. I did KuS the other day with a sorc obsessed with his bubble, and even though I told him to save it for bosses for me, he kept re-casting it for all the trash, and recast as soon as he could. I had heat problems for most of the FP, and have no intention of re-grouping with him until he learns to listen.

[Zuuf]

This explains why Resist, Proactive Tanks have such defensive cooldowns as +10% health over 15s. Which seems lack luster to the sudden instant burst heal of the Juggernaut tank. The difference is in the combination of factors, not in the individual comparison between abilities though, as Juggs are much more likely to take a single large hit that they NEED to heal back from - a proactive shieldtech will never get hit that hard to begin with.

 

Interesting post, but I'd like to get clarification on a couple of issues.

 

What sudden instant burst heal do you think Juggernaut tanks have? Juggs don't have any heals. If you're classifying Endure Pain as a heal, those are temporary health points. Not a heal in any contemporary sense.

 

Whereas a Jugg will tend to save his total defense shield for when he needs to avoid losing health completely and immediately - such as after a big crit chain.

 

You seem to be making the argument that Juggernauts should wait until after they get hit and then use defensive cooldowns to survive until healers can save them. Whereas Powertech's don't have that luxury. No tank should be playing like this, regardless of class. Every tank should be proactive. Juggernauts should be using their cooldowns in advance of the damage given out. Any tank who is playing the Reactive game is simply rolling the dice on their survival.

 

Other than Retaliation, I can't think of a single ability that makes Juggernauts a "Reactive" tank. All tanks need to be trying to act pro-actively.

 

I realize that the thrust of your post is meant more as an explanation of Powertechs, but I think you've done a disservice by trying to use Juggs as the counterpoint for your example. Good info on Powertechs, bad info on Juggs.

[oakamp]

good post.

[FluxWing]

What was the point of this post? There is no initial question or problem you're trying to adress. I'll just a big chunk of information about damage mitigation compared to avoidance.

 

Like an essay without an introduction, purpose or goal. Nice info, but it's floating in a void.

[Prolyfic]

I realize that the thrust of your post is meant more as an explanation of Powertechs, but I think you've done a disservice by trying to use Juggs as the counterpoint for your example. Good info on Powertechs, bad info on Juggs.

 

I appreciate your input and I'll try to clarify. First off I am in no way trying to imply that it is easier or more simple to play either tank over the other. That said..

 

When it comes to abilities that boost your defense, it makes sense that the jugg will want to use these abilities proactively to avoid getting hit as much as possible. I am more focused on the situtional defensive cooldowns than the CDs you will pop at the beginning of any dangerous fight, whether they are relics, or extra hps. I am not implying that the PT is 100% proactive, or that the jugg is 100% reactive, simply that these approaches make up the core of their class design.

 

For instance I will address the ability you mentioned..

 

What sudden instant burst heal do you think Juggernaut tanks have? Juggs don't have any heals. If you're classifying Endure Pain as a heal, those are temporary health points. Not a heal in any contemporary sense.

 

Endure Pain: Increase HP by +30% for 10s, after 10s you lose 30% hp, 90s cd

 

vs

 

Kolto Overload: Restore 15% hp over 10s, 90s cd

 

 

Endure Pain is a burst heal with an additional effect of +30% max health for 10s and a cost of 30% health when the 10s is up. When you use this ability, your current AND max hp goes up 30%. That is most assuredly a burst heal as it gives you the emergency capability to heal yourself until a healer can get on top of things. Most of the time you see these types of heals get changed in MMOs to cost only the max hp and not the current hp too after duration but that's not the way juggs works atm making it even more risky to use proactively.

 

Assuming the jugg is properly geared for an enounter, why would he want to use this ability proactively? due to the nature of his defense (burst, based more on randomness), he may use it up front for the first 10s, then avoid taking a bigger hit than his healer can handle until 20s into the fight in which case the ability gets wasted. On top of that, its a gambling ability.. if you run out of time you will lose health, right? Why would you use that 10s duration early in a 2 minute fight when you may not even need it? Wouldnt it be best served recovering from a vicious blow near the end into a 2 minute fight or using it to layer health during the middle when your healer is out of energy so he can get some back? after which time the health loss wouldnt bring you down to 1hp?

 

Maybe if the jugg was undergeared, he would NEED the additional HP to survive the mobs alpha strike. In that case, yes.. its best served proactively but that's not the case I am focused on, as I am writing more to tanks doing content they are properly geared for.

 

meanwhile PTs have no downside or risk for using their ability as early in the fight as possible, however it doesnt have quite the burst capability to serve us as well later in the fight as jugg's heal does. It heals only 15% (half of jugg) over 10s but doesnt take anything away from us when its over.

 

This ability is one of the best ways to illustrate the minor differences in mechanics between defense tanks and resist tanks.

 

TBH this concept is not new at all to SWTOR. There have been resist tanks vs defense tanks for the last 10 years or more of MMOs, swtor devs only fit in the concept into their classes.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Prolyfic

[Prolyfic]

What was the point of this post? There is no initial question or problem you're trying to adress.

 

You must not visit the pt board very often?

 

or you would probably already know how few people who visit it truely understand these concepts. If you are one of them prior to reading this post, good for you.. this explanation of fundamentals isn't for you at all

 

I wrote this post to illustrate the core differences between the tanks, primarily to help people who proactively seek out knowlege about their tank.. but also to link to people reactively who demonstrate a potential need for this info.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Prolyfic

[FluxWing]

It took me WEEKS to figure out why a friend's Sorceror was a worse healer for my PT than the same friend's Operative. It was the bubble abuse causing me to overheat and die on trash pulls kicking my repair bills through the roof. A better understanding of the fundamentals of Shieldtech could have prevented that frustration, and I see a lot of people on this board who seem to be at the same place I was when I started my Shieldtech, so I wished to share what I learned since then.

 

If you had posted something like this, which is hidden in the very end of your post, it would have been easier for the reader to determine if I actually need to know the difference between a PT and a Jug tank or not.

 

Otherwise your average reader my click your post and think: "woah, wall of text!" and leave.

 

Or think of it as a very elaborate answer to an untold question.

 

When I clicked your post I was expecting a post why Juggernaugts are so much worse than Powertechs for PvP or something, only based on the Thread's name.

 

Don't get me wrong. You explain some very important concepts. I should be part of a stickied guide or something, but as a stand-alone post it was (to me) kinda confusing.