Bilirubin Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Can I continue to reverse engineer and up the tiers of lower level items once they go grey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleet_Xia Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Absolutely! The RE chance is influenced a great deal by the "difficulty" of a patern. Grey items are far easier to RE for new paterns. And you'll notice as you RE grey items that the dificulty of some higher items will acually decrease. Making it easier to RE those items. This mechanism continues to work even after you hit your skill cap. You read many threads here about people having great difficulty REing paterns. Most likely it is because they are trying to RE paterns that are yellow or even orange difficulty. I don't think it is necessary to work every last patern to artifact quality (purple). But it seems to helps a great deal if you RE many paterns to prototype (blue). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilirubin Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 I had noticed that! I was growing concerned that more and more items were turnign grey and I was accumulating new patterns of higher difficulty faster than getting lower level items to blue or purple status. From what a guildie told me, I thought I could only learn from items with green, yellow or orange status indicators, and was getting alarmed I was doing something very wrong. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BebeLeBozo Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I had noticed that! I was growing concerned that more and more items were turnign grey and I was accumulating new patterns of higher difficulty faster than getting lower level items to blue or purple status. From what a guildie told me, I thought I could only learn from items with green, yellow or orange status indicators, and was getting alarmed I was doing something very wrong. Thanks! The colors only indicate how much crafting skill you gain by crafting the item. Grey items give no skill gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitizenFry Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Absolutely! And you'll notice as you RE grey items that the dificulty of some higher items will acually decrease. Making it easier to RE those items. This mechanism continues to work even after you hit your skill cap. Citation? This seems really wonky to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilirubin Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 perfect thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 The colors only indicate how much crafting skill you gain by crafting the item. Grey items give no skill gain. Pretty sure it relates to crit chance, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilirubin Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 Pretty sure it relates to crit chance, too. How so? Are you saying there is a relatively limited window to crit, or that you will crit more often with grey items, even if you aren't adding skill points to artifice (or whichever skill)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleet_Xia Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Citation? This seems really wonky to me. citation? My artifice was 400 before I bought my g6 color crystal paterns- they were yellow difficulty when I bought them. I waited for them to go green difficulty before I tried to RE any of them to prototype quality. I'd say that proves that difficulty is influenced by more than your craft skill level. Wouldn't you? The difficulty color scale continues to change toward grey as you learn new patterns by RE. Eventhough your skill doesn't grow- the difficulty continues to go down for your top tier stuff. This is the whole reason why people are QQing about proc rates being broken. It's because they probably didn't even bother to buy most of their lowbie paterns. I'd also say that difficulty does somehow influence crit chance- I crit 20% of the time on the lowest level foci that I can make. Mats for those are so cheap that I make crit blues just to give away, and then RE the no augment ones for mats. The difficulty level definately influences the proc chance for RE. I think they intentionally set it up to reward people who craft and sell gear below their level with better proc rates. I've been doing that the whole time I've played- and never had much probelm REing a new patern that I wanted. Versus players who power leveled their crafts to 400, and now wonder why they can't get the pattern they want. Edited February 28, 2012 by Cleet_Xia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 My artifice was at 400 before I bought my g6 color crystal paterns- they were yellow difficulty when I bought them. Now they're all greens. That kind of proves that difficulty is influenced by more than your craft skill level, doesn't it? Of course it is - companion affection plays a role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rokuakumu Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 citation? Watch difficulty color scale continue to change toward grey- even if you havn't bought any new paterns. Even though your skill doesn't grow- the difficulty continues to go down for your top tier stuff. This is the whole reason why people are QQing about proc rates being broken. It's because they skipped their lowbie paterns. My artifice was at 400 before I bought my g6 color crystal paterns- they were yellow difficulty when I bought them. Now they're all greens. That kind of proves that difficulty is influenced by more than your craft skill level, doesn't it? Say what? So you're saying that if one REs a bunch of lvl 9 patterns to artifact that the difficulty on your 400 skill-level patterns will go down? This is the first I've heard any mention of this. Can you possibly provide a screen shot of your artifice craft window? If this is true then wow! Major discovery! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleet_Xia Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) Yes... That is exactly what I'm saying, https://live.staticflickr.com/7040/6793644324_ebcd579e96_b.jpg When you sort by "difficulty" the colored dots only seem to be influenced by craft skill level. Those havn't changed since I purchased the paterns. But when you sort by "level"- the difficulty colors change. Sorted by level the level numbers are green, but they were originally yellow. The difficulty color of the mats required (left of the name) is still orange btw... Patern difficulty is somehow influenced by the paterns you have below it. I can't say scientifically what the specific value of each patern is but I'd say these things based on my game play experience. 1)green paterns do not influence the difficulty for crafting or RE of higher paterns. - makes sense because anybody can just buy these... 2) blues do decrease difficulty for crafting or RE of higher blues by a certain amount based on the level of the pattern. Ie a blue level 7 patern does not influence as much as level 15 blue patern. Except that the blues that come from venders & UT schematics don't seem to have any effect. - They are basically just greens with a blue frame. 3) purples decrease the difficulty for RE of blue and purple paterns above them - but not to any greater degree than blues. If I had to guess, each pattern seems to have a fixed difficulty rating attached to it. That difficulty is then reduced by a certain amount for every blue and purple patern below it- in the entire craft. With each patern's difficulty buff determined by it's level. A blue enhancement patern will actually help you craft a lightsaber crystal - for example. That difficulty is also reduced by craft skill level and player character level. Gear seems to have no effect at all on RE chance- I've RE'd in the nude aboard my ship to test this LOL. Makes sense- because we wouldn't want to have a class that was better at crafting all around- just because of their gear. Location might have an effect on RE proc chance- It is inconclussive, but my RE attempts in safe zones seem to proc more frequently. That difficulty level plays into the RNG for both crit crafting, and crit REing. I'm not sure how many artifact paterns I actually have - It is quite a few. But I've never had to RE more than 35 blues to get the proc. I've never had an attempt to craft an item fail-- so the the only thing I can guess is that the diffiuclty colors are actually the difficulty of RE & crit. Edited February 29, 2012 by Cleet_Xia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerid Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Y But when you sort by "level"- the difficulty colors change. Sorted by level the level numbers are green, but they were originally yellow. When you sort by "level" that's the level of the item vs the your character level. It doesn't have anything to do with how difficult it is to make and/or RE. You must have been under 50 when you hit 400 skill. And as you got closer to 50 the colors would have changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rokuakumu Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Yeah, the level ones are just relative to character level. Still seems interesting though. Might try to RE bunch of greys to test this on a low skill toon and see if you get any more 'skill' in terms of non-grey craftables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleet_Xia Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 You are right- I hit 400 Artifice before level 50. I've been a 50 for over 3 weeks. The g5 color crystals were also green post 50 & post 400, those just turned grey a few days ago.- my companion affection scores barely changed in the period of time between the g6 turning green and when the g5 turned grey. What else could have caused that besides the paterns that I RE'ed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerid Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 You are right- I hit 400 Artifice before level 50. I've been a 50 for over 3 weeks. The g5 color crystals were also green post 50 & post 400, those just turned grey a few days ago.- my companion affection scores barely changed in the period of time between the g6 turning green and when the g5 turned grey. What else could have caused that besides the paterns that I RE'ed? Dunno, I can just tell you my Armstechs have been fed by my other guys. Both Imp side and Rep side they're my last guys to be leveling up. They'd stay at the same level and were fed materials by my other guys. When I sort by level, it's always had the same colors, till I advance their character level. For the longest time my Rep Armstech was on Tarris, but could make up to level 35 Barrels (I pretty much just make barrels and Techblades with him). Most of the barel schematics I've learned are Purple up to the level 35 range (He was fed credits to level investigation as well as salvage materials from my Cybertech and Armortech) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GellonSW Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 The idea of REing grey stuff being easier is blatantly false and I want to see a dev confirm that its like that. I have several 400 skill crafters and every one have had different experiences RE-ing from grey to green to yellow to whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilirubin Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 I have also confirmed that constructing and REing grey items reduces the difficulty level of the upper level items without granting additional expertise to the skill. So I seem to have two different tasks--leveling to 400, and building my number of blue and purple items up. Also, it does seem to me that I am getting more crits in construction and RE successes with the grey items. I would also love clarification on this point since I suppose this could simply be the probabilities working themselves out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleet_Xia Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) The idea of REing grey stuff being easier is blatantly false and I want to see a dev confirm that its like that. I have several 400 skill crafters and every one have had different experiences RE-ing from grey to green to yellow to whatever. I don't think anybody actually said that.... What I said was that having low blue & purple paterns appears to improve the RE chance of higher paterns. Not the other way arround. I also said that each item has a different difficulty level. My guess is that the difficulty for armors is intentionaly lower- because of the quantity of mats invovled. I doubt that all level 15 items across all the crafts have exactly the same base difficulty. Doing that would penalize armormech & synthweaving. Their recipes have twice as many mats. I did say that craft skill level increases the crit crafting chance on low grey items. I'm not positive that the number of paterns has any influence over that but it's obvious that skill level does. My critcraft rate for level 11 foci was less than %10 when I was crafting batches of them for the GTN in my mid 30's with an artifice arround 300. At 50/400 the rate now is basically 20% The easy way to test this is for 50/400's to reset their crafting skill - level them to 400 with as few paterns and mats as possible. And then measure what their proc rate is for their level 47,49 prototypes and artifacts. There is a mats list for doing just this posted for several crafts in this forum. Prices on the GTN for g1-g3 mats are so inflated that lowbies obviously arn't the one's buying them. So- yes people are already doing that- and they've been raising bloody hell that the RE rate is broken. The only available variables to cause their poor proc rate are crew affection,the number of paterns they have, & their honesty. Edited February 29, 2012 by Cleet_Xia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleet_Xia Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Also, it does seem to me that I am getting more crits in construction and RE successes with the grey items. I would also love clarification on this point since I suppose this could simply be the probabilities working themselves out. I don't think having a higher patern improves your RE chances for a lower level item. But it may improve your improve your crit craft chance. I'm going to put this another way........ But I am convinced there is a different mathematical formula behind both RE & crit crafting, and RNG is just part of it. And if it works the way I think it does- that formula is different for each of the grades. Theoretical Example: RE formula for a g3 item "g3 item name" difficulty = X Player Level = Z Craft Skill Level = Y # of g2 blue paterns = A # of g2 purple paterns = B # of g1 blue paterns = C # of g1 purple paterns = D (((X - Z - Y - (A * buff) - (B * buff) - (C * buff) - (D * buff)) / X) +1) * base RE chance = RE chance the number the RNG is rolling against Theoretical Example: Crit formula for a g5 item "g5 item name" difficulty = X Player Level = Z Craft Skill Level = Y # of g6 blue paterns = A # of g6 purple paterns = B (((X - Z - Y - (A* buff) - (B * buff)) / X) +1) * base crit chance = crit chance the number the RNG is rolling against The formula that determines what colors to display for the difficulty in the "mat" collumn to the left of the name & the difficulty color to the right of the name when sorted by difficulty appear to follow this formula: "item name" difficulty = X Player Level = Z Craft Skill Level = Y X - Y - Z = ____ and the mathematical value is simply translated into a color - these colors have not changed since I hit my level caps. The color of the level number to the right of the item when sorted by level appears to follow the difficulty formula behind the RE chance. Why the difference I do not know. But I do know that those colors have continued to change after I hit my level caps of 50/400. And while I was leveling they would often change during marathon crafting/ RE sessions that did not involve any skill or level gain. So the formula behind their color is obviously different. And that formula obviously includes more variables than character level and craft skill level. The number being used for "difficulty" is possibly the value listed when you sort the items by "rating" Why would they use a more sophisticated formula to determine the color of a few numbers in the UI than they used to determine the RE or crit chance? Why would they even use a different formula? My guess is the level number colors are the only ones that are working as intended. And that after patch 1.2 the others will start working the same way. It's not as simple as the result of a pure RNG Vs. a fixed base chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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