MorgothQuick Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Bleeds/dots of the rage/vengeance tree need to be increased and I wouldnt mind a self heal tagged to an ability, say Force Choke heals you for 1% per second that its channeled or something like that. That would help us non Immortal Juggies who have to stand there and channel the bloody thing at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyrasXIII Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Bleeds/dots of the rage/vengeance tree need to be increased and I wouldnt mind a self heal tagged to an ability, say Force Choke heals you for 1% per second that its channeled or something like that. That would help us non Immortal Juggies who have to stand there and channel the bloody thing at least. ok so im not diagreeing Juggs need a little love but after SCANNING through this thread, so far, people want.... - more tanking abilities... - more DPS... - self healing..... you already have heavy armour, massive HP, taunts, gaurds, CC abilities..... are people really just asking for a godly class? seriously theres no pleasing some people, i regulalry see juggs putting out loads of damage because they dont die, compare that to a marauder who does half the damage because they get squished. Think about it, they up a tanks DPS, then they'll have to up the DPS classes DPS. If that happens, the healers then cry cos they get ripped apart...... so they get more survivability...... then tanks cry about that because all of a sudden they cant kill light armoured people again..... and the circle begins again.... seriously stop crying ffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vid-szhite Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) ok so im not diagreeing Juggs need a little love but after SCANNING through this thread, so far, people want.... - more tanking abilities... - more DPS... - self healing..... you already have heavy armour, massive HP, taunts, gaurds, CC abilities..... are people really just asking for a godly class? seriously theres no pleasing some people, i regulalry see juggs putting out loads of damage because they dont die, compare that to a marauder who does half the damage because they get squished. Think about it, they up a tanks DPS, then they'll have to up the DPS classes DPS. If that happens, the healers then cry cos they get ripped apart...... so they get more survivability...... then tanks cry about that because all of a sudden they cant kill light armoured people again..... and the circle begins again.... seriously stop crying ffs. And you've missed the point completely. We don't want all of those things to be usable at the same time, we want them because our class is currently mediocre at everything it's supposed to do, even when built for purity. 1) Juggernauts need more tanking abilities, because currently they are the worst at holding threat and are only mediocre at soaking damage. A Jugg Tank does the worst DPS of the three tanks by far, to such a degree that a Juggernaut Tank is pretty much sacrificing his ability to get the 1v1 medal in PvP simply because even though we don't die, it takes an hour for us to kill them too. But we don't care about that so much. If having more DPS is what we'd get to help us generate more threat, we'd take it. We'd even take straight threat without more DPS. Tanks don't care about their DPS except when it's not enough to hold hate, and right now, it often isn't. 2) Juggernaut DPS has an undeserved reputation for being bad or mediocre. However it actually does stack up, many feel it isn't as high as it should be. We don't have significantly better survivability than a Mercenary, who also wears heavy armor, who has direct heals that can be used on ANYONE, and can get an additional 10% damage reduction just by spamming tracer missile. Jugg DPS is about the same as Merc DPS, we have the same armor ratings and the same HP, except Merc is easy to play, pulls less hate, can do its damage without worrying about movement, and doesn't have to worry about getting knocked back nearly as much. Mercs also RECEIVE more healing through talents in their primary DPS tree. 3) Because Juggernauts take very spiky damage while tanking, with sudden dips into low HP that REQUIRE the use of our cooldowns, having a single emergency self heal that didn't wear off and make the healers panic is very much needed. The other two tanks take very steady damage, Powertechs because of very good shields and far more armor, and Assassins because of very good shields and streams of steady self-healing. Combine that with our threat problems, and you'll discover that healers hate us. If we're the tank, they have to work harder, and we have to work harder, just to do the same thing that comes easy to the other two tanks. Our tank tree has the worst survivability buffs of any other, so bad that many consider using our DPS tree to tank because aside from the third tier, it has more (but still sucks at it). We don't want to be a God class, we just want boosts to certain aspects of our class to bring us in line with others. Consider the poster right above you - if you've seen Vengeance dots, you know that they tick for only double digits even at 50, and the self heal he's asking for is, at most, a whopping 4% heal. Whether or not either of those things are needed, is that really going to turn us into a God class? I have been unfairly denied groups as Jugg DPS, and I have read stories of Full Rakata Jugg tanks being replaced as the main tank mid-raid with a fresh-50 Assassin tank because the Assassin was so much easier to deal with. Can it really be considered crying when we do have significant problems due to the lack of those things you mentioned? The devs have said since beta that we needed a boost. We were supposed to get them at launch, but they weren't ready yet. Consider the fact that we're getting new abilities in 1.2 - whole new abilities - would we be getting those if the devs didn't think we needed them? Edited March 7, 2012 by Vid-szhite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryhavocwar Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I came to this game from LOTRO. The Juggernaut Immortal tree is very similar in playstyle to a Champion from LOTRO, with the exception of fewer AOE attacks. Since my main in LOTRO was a Champion, I was able to tweak my playstyle a bit to match that and find I can tank pretty well. I have noticed that when I use one of my AOE attacks, the mobs instantly switch to me. I just wish I had a couple more AOE attacks to keep that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vid-szhite Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I came to this game from LOTRO. The Juggernaut Immortal tree is very similar in playstyle to a Champion from LOTRO, with the exception of fewer AOE attacks. Since my main in LOTRO was a Champion, I was able to tweak my playstyle a bit to match that and find I can tank pretty well. I have noticed that when I use one of my AOE attacks, the mobs instantly switch to me. I just wish I had a couple more AOE attacks to keep that up. Indeed. That's really all we've ever wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midichlorien Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) Weak argument if you ask me, The DPS job is to deal huge amounts of damage to mobs, OUR job is to keep threat of them. PT's & Assassins are both great AoE tankers and single target tankers.. We can only keep main target threat but are severely lacking in the AoE department. That's unfariness. We don't have an AoE ability that does 3-4k damage over 3 seconds with a 1min CD, We don't have any threat generating abilities at all except for backhand. I don't even see the purpose of going Immortal, I go Vengeance and tank better. Here are two things that would make the Jugg on par with the PT & As.. ~ An AoE ability that does moderate amount of damage over time and generates threat ~ Give the Immortal tree talents that add threat to current abilities. I am totally on your side. As threat is directly based on delivered damage in this game, a tank needs certain dps abilities in this game, modified by certain threat boni. The special threat bonus on certain skills is the point where some tweaks should occur. ...and yes, threat is based on damage and NOT on an abstract count of damaging tics/time unit. It was tested, have a look here: http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-Threat-conversation). The only method to solve AE-threat problems is to give certain skills (sweap, smash) special threat boni in Immortal or modify skills (light saber throw on more than one target? without a minimum range? dozens of possibilities where you don't have to convert an Immortal Juggernaut into a dps monstre or hurt PvP too much). Btw I really dislike the long animation time of smash for timing on moving mobs and for the chance to get kicked while jumping with the result of rage loss and cooldown, but no damage/threat delivered... Edited March 7, 2012 by Midichlorien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VelnikSP Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) That pbaoe scream/slow thing should deliver like 500 damage points worth of threat. Make it part of the immortal tree. Edited March 8, 2012 by VelnikSP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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