Operative dueling/1v1 Specs

[Xavory]

So I decided to make a thread about the usefulness of non-cookie cutter spec's in duels/1v1, since I've hit a wall with the standard concealment spec. The wall being an almost rank 80 tank assassin that has won the last two "Fight Night" dueling tournaments on our server.

 

So lets get some context here. This discussion is not about the spec you used to destroy some assassin in a warzone, or the spec you use that gets 300k in a voidstar: I'm talking about fighting 1v1, in a controlled environment against the top players on your server(controlled meaning no Merc is spamming Tracers on him while you "solo" him).

 

 

So here are the brackets from the last two tournaments. I can assure you it's not a "L2P" issue, as these brackets should show. Everyone in the tournament is pretty much full BM geared PvPers, and besides Tidus(the Sin) I've only lost one match VS a Beastmode powertech, which still came down to 2:1 and the last hit.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AuF4TLmQ230VdFlWSnBqYWdYR1hiVXNBaUE5bTJtR2c&output=html

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AuF4TLmQ230VdHRENnB0ZjExZmFmQXZ6SF9CNDQ1c1E&output=html

 

Right now I run the standard 3/31/7 spec. After watching another Operative employ the Incisive Action spec(Dev) I think that is probably a better duel spec than Slip Away. However I'd love some feedback from other high level Operatives/Scoundrels about various dueling specs. I am especially interested in the Hybrid healer specs , both Conc and Lethality versions.

 

I realize that Tank spec Sins/Shadows are the most OP'd 1v1 class in the game right now, but until Bioware "adjusts" them like they did us, I figured a discussion about dueling would be more productive than complaining.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Xavory

[Asvero]

Hey Xavory

 

Incisive Action can be useful but it's tough to pull off against these players

I think it's main usefulness is the fact you go into the duel with Stim Boost up which pretty much gives you an extra Lacerate

 

You can try using a Flash Bang off but chances are if you've used the technique before the opponent is probably going to wait for that to use their break

You can try using it in coordination with a Sleep Dart too but you might lose an opener

All of these really limit your use of Corrosive Dart and even Acid Blade to a lesser extent

It's tough to plan the battle 15 seconds ahead kinda what you would need to do

 

Those hybrid builds are always interesting because you don't have to rely so much on openers but I'd be surprised if you could pull off as much damage as quickly as a basic concealment build but it might be worth trying out for a little while

[sMooMs]

well few questions, (1)how close to death are you getting him(are u leaving him at 10%,20%,50%), (2)what seems to be the turning point in the duel, (3) is he preventing you from opening each time (4)if 3 then what r u doing to try and re-gain the advantage?

[Xavory]

Spent a large part of yesterday testing hybrid healing spec's. My consensus is that they don't produce enough healing to survive against the top DPS's players on the server. The top duelists can and will destroy even full heal spec's. The DPS loss is more than the healing gained, it just doesn't work.

 

I may mess around a little with a hybrid lethality spec but I'm not hopeful.

 

I'm not going to complain, I've beaten every class in the game in the tournament with concealment, just the combination of top gear and a top player with a slightly OP'd spec/class is just too much at the moment.

[VirgiI]

Are you full bm geared or do you have the 2-piece rakata? I've seen some pretty compelling arguments for why the +15% to backstab and extra cunning/stats far outweighs the ~100 expertise and 5 extra evergy you get from the full BM set.

[Arrys]

Send Tidus a 12 pack. The class has a really good potential and he knows what he's doing. You are married to getting your opener off and he can deny it.

 

Maybe try a sedatives powered opener and KP in a build that voluntarily sacrifices your opener to get him. Doubt it would work and it would open up vulnerabilities to other classes if it did.

 

your assessment of medicine spec is I think accurate. I have good results with it in even gear against non burst damage classes in 1v1 whittle fights. Main benefit is the free surgical probe after every shiv combined with the healing mitigation of KP lets me stay ahead. Snare dot shiv SP backstab KP every second rotation of shiv SP overload if I have the energy for it.

 

I doubt incisive action would provide much benefit on any good player we really only have 1 cast time to interupt and they burn it the instant you go for that heal is my experience. Meaning you get a big heal in your debilitate or flash bang window if their CC break is down.

 

If he uses a good bit of maul perhaps the -20% accuracy on flashbang would get you something. Seems to help in whittle spec(medicine) against tanks in general.

 

Is the fight lasting long enough to get double stun advantage from slip away? If not maybe that modest extra defense of flash powder would be more beneficial and let you maintain your strategy on other fights.

[PinnyFox]

I have to ask: Are both players on even ground, as in your opponent knows an operative is coming for them and can prepare with making sure all their cooldowns are up, shields are up, etc?

 

If so, then that's why an operative will always lose in one of these matchups. An operative's strength isn't in a straight "Fair" 1v1 fight, and trying to make a spec to do that will end up sub-optimal. That's not to say you can't do it at all, but it'll be significantly harder if not impossible to actually kill people if they know you're coming and prepare themselves accordingly.

[Agrian]

I have to ask: Are both players on even ground, as in your opponent knows an operative is coming for them and can prepare with making sure all their cooldowns are up, shields are up, etc?

 

If so, then that's why an operative will always lose in one of these matchups. An operative's strength isn't in a straight "Fair" 1v1 fight, and trying to make a spec to do that will end up sub-optimal. That's not to say you can't do it at all, but it'll be significantly harder if not impossible to actually kill people if they know you're coming and prepare themselves accordingly.

 

This ^^.

 

Stealth gives the element of surprise. if someone already knows your there gunning for them, it completely negates the purpose of stealth.

 

another question. WHERE are you fighting these guys? look around you for terrain you can abuse. remember that you do have a variety of ranged abilities inherent to the class that other melee classes do not.

[Anelyn]

Is just the fact that sin / shadow tank hybrids or full tank spec, are very strong in 1v1 situations and their defensive CDs can outlast ours easily (and are better of course).

 

Since you say the fights are in a controlled environment, I suppose there is no LOS you could use to create advantages (like root from sever tendon and then make a fetish from hugging the pilar while corrosive dart is on him etc).

 

In open, you really can't do much since they have a sprint (on 20s cd if am not mistaken), a pull, and we can't remove their dots (except every 1 min with evasion). Is impossible to kite a good sin tank and we don't have the lasting power to duke it out with them either (considering they don't trinket the stun and we get some good dmg going).

 

IMHO, your best bet is to not use vanish on opener, as he will sit your stun, pump damage into him to force his defensive CD, then flashbang there to make sure he trinkets it, put the corrosive dart on him and vanish. If you have stim boost up and running, you are regenerating some hp, while he can't stealth or regen (only if he blows force shroud, but he should use that on his 1st vanish which should happen by then, if not, you're still getting ahead if you can re-open on him with no trinket).

 

I always avoid them even in WZs, because they are too much trouble :> I rather hunt marauders / sents

[Xavory]

I'll try to answer a few of these.

 

Are you full bm geared or do you have the 2-piece rakata? I've seen some pretty compelling arguments for why the +15% to backstab and extra cunning/stats far outweighs the ~100 expertise and 5 extra evergy you get from the full BM set.

 

Full BIS gear: Full BM, Champ ear, Matrix Cube, Rakata 2p.

 

I have to ask: Are both players on even ground, as in your opponent knows an operative is coming for them and can prepare with making sure all their cooldowns are up, shields are up, etc?

 

If so, then that's why an operative will always lose in one of these matchups. An operative's strength isn't in a straight "Fair" 1v1 fight, and trying to make a spec to do that will end up sub-optimal. That's not to say you can't do it at all, but it'll be significantly harder if not impossible to actually kill people if they know you're coming and prepare themselves accordingly.

 

It's a tournament. It's held on flat ground. Best 2 out of 3, double elimination, full CDs, Full buffs from every class, all consumables. Perhaps you have neglected to look at the two links I posted, but I've placed 2nd and 4th in the last two tournaments, with three of my only 4 losses coming to the winner. The notion that it will be " hard if not impossible to kill people" if they know I'm coming is kinda moot. I've killed every class in the game in these events, including several Tanksins with lesser gear/skill than Tidus. This tournament is being held on a High Population PvP server, with Battlemaster or higher opponents only.

 

Is just the fact that sin / shadow tank hybrids or full tank spec, are very strong in 1v1 situations and their defensive CDs can outlast ours easily (and are better of course).

 

Since you say the fights are in a controlled environment, I suppose there is no LOS you could use to create advantages (like root from sever tendon and then make a fetish from hugging the pilar while corrosive dart is on him etc).

 

In open, you really can't do much since they have a sprint (on 20s cd if am not mistaken), a pull, and we can't remove their dots (except every 1 min with evasion). Is impossible to kite a good sin tank and we don't have the lasting power to duke it out with them either (considering they don't trinket the stun and we get some good dmg going).

 

IMHO, your best bet is to not use vanish on opener, as he will sit your stun, pump damage into him to force his defensive CD, then flashbang there to make sure he trinkets it, put the corrosive dart on him and vanish. If you have stim boost up and running, you are regenerating some hp, while he can't stealth or regen (only if he blows force shroud, but he should use that on his 1st vanish which should happen by then, if not, you're still getting ahead if you can re-open on him with no trinket).

 

I always avoid them even in WZs, because they are too much trouble :> I rather hunt marauders / sents

 

I'm starting to believe this is true. When evenly matched in skill and gear, class imbalance will begin to show. I'm going to adjust my tactics somewhat for the next one and see how it goes. It's not just that this opponent knows how to play, or even knows how to play against Operatives. He knows how to play against ME. We've been guildmates in MMOs for 10 years now and he knows exactly what I do to beat people. With the class imbalance, I can't use the same knowledge against him nearly as well.

 

I am going to switch to 5/31/5 and try getting some CC>heals off mid fight once his CC break is on CD. The fights don't last long enough to use the stun twice anyway.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Xavory

[Anelyn]

Am not sure as I never dueled yet (not in a serious tournament like situation at least) but I suppose there's no trauma debuff in duels, so you could pop some great heals for the duel purpose, heck even a 4s stun could give you 2 full big heals and 2 TAs from that, or a simple root when you have TA's up, then just cast 2 1.5s heals as his interrupt range is 4m.

 

Also this may lead to some good opportunities for you (the root and heal one especially) as he may be forced to use the force pull if he wants to stop the heals, which is cool, you traded a 12s cd for a 1 min (or 45s?) one, so you are pulling ahead.

 

Is an uphill battle even if you do small flavor things to force him make mistakes and exploit them, but could be doable, or at least increasing your wining chance.

 

In a way no LOS items means also you can't abuse roll into cover to move fast and create distance to force him to panic (not that great in WZs most of time, but still useful). Also he can't pull you from cover so you can heal safe since he's snared and at 10m+ distance. Just couple of things

 

Another thing you can try, after he popped his defense cd and is gone, get distance root him, and cast orbital strike on yourself, then spam heals, you will finish casting before he can interrupt (same crouch to prevent pull), and he either lets you cast or comes in and takes dmg.

 

That's how I would try to duel such a tank sin, instead of trying to brute force him down and outlast his dmg / cds.

 

Ideally you always want to force him to take decisions to ruin the flow of his battle plan, this way you will always be a step ahead as you know what you can provoke him to do and be a win/win situation for you (small wins leading to victory) :>

 

Hope it helps, let me know if you tried any of this tricks :>

[Asvero]

Correct me if I'm off base here

But a debilitate will only allow one heal as it uses the 1.5 second GCD so its only 2.5 seconds of free time. With debilitate it would yield more to keep up a heavy dps rotation then to go into self heals. Also I believe Assassins have a 10 yard interrupt.

Good theory crafting but there's a handful of holes in it

Edited February 28, 2012 by Asvero

[Anelyn]

Yep my bad, 10m on their interrupt.

[Asvero]

Also rereading your post

I'm nearly certain going into cover won't stop a pull

If it does I'd feel like an idiot for missing out on it all this time

It just gives you a block against a ranged attack

[Rapto]

I have dueled my sin buddy (full BM tank sin) quite a few times and I have a similar tactic to what anelyn posted but a bit different aswell. Going to be a short example of what usually happens and what I do.

 

Assuming you get the opener, debilitate right after to start the resolve white bar right off the bat. A good sin won't trinket that as they're waiting for your flash. You should be able to pump some decent dmg into him.

 

After just stay alive with dmg and kiting if needed waiting for his resolve to go down. Once his resolve is refreshed you should be hurting, prob more then he is (ya they do a **** load of dmg with crazy dmg mitigation). Flash and heal. This is where they have to trinket or they'll lose as you can heal up to full.

 

After the trinket vanish/sleep dart then heal/recuperate(you are OOC) for the duration, keeping an eye on the timer and you can generally get a full re-stealth with near full HP and re-open with a HS.

 

If he doesn't trinket your flash then you've already won healing up to full

 

I haven't lost yet with this strat. Of course things can change depending on how the sin reacts, but if its a "tourny" the sin prob won't of dueled you a million times to know exactly what you are going to do.

 

Don't use your trinket on his stun or he'll just vanish/sap/seethe to you and basically **** you up.

 

Standard 3/31/7

Edited February 28, 2012 by Rapto

[Xavory]

The problem with Tank Sins is their healing. They do less (not much less) damage than we do in the short term, but they also take far less, AND can heal. The only real option for healing would be to use Debilitate to force him to pop his CC break, then Flash Bang once his resolve is down and heal up.

 

I think the only real chance is landing both openers and pulling off a full Flash Bang heal, while avoiding his Vanish>Sap>Seethe.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Xavory

[Xavory]

Coot, the Sin I'm talking about is a guildmate of mine for 10 years. We were gladiator level Arena partners in WoW and have dueled each other a million times.

 

I do think your strat is the key to winning. The fact that the Tank Sin outclasses us(everyone?) it's going to require perfect play or forcing him to make a mistake. Should be fun. =)

 

I have to say, in terms of 1v1 duels, the game is pretty balanced, with the current exception of Assassin/Shadow tank spec's. I still want to see a Merc/Commando and Guardian/Jugg with Best in Slot gear and top skill compete. I've seen pretty much every other class beat every other class depending on the player.

[Vaipyr]

As much as I love my med/lethality hybrid spec (because it plays the most closely to how I wanted to play MY op, opposed to like a rogue) I doubt you'll find much success with it 1v1. As you've already noticed the healing just isn't enough to beat out the DPS in a straight up fight and the damage is lackluster on single targets as well. Med/lethality is pretty much a straight up pure support role. You heal the team, you provide aoe and occasional burst on low hp targets before moving on to heal again. Against bads and undergeareds (it's a word now) you can work wonders 1v1 but against good players in decent gear it's an upward climb in futility. Against a tankasin? Fuggetaboutit.

[SpoeMeister]

As being new to the PvP scene, I thank the OP for this thread. I have read a lot of things I want to try out in PvP :-)

 

Sorry for not contributing, I just wanted to say thanks to OP for starting this thread and a thanks to Rapto for sharing a strategy I did not think of for myself. Maybe now I can start being a good Agent.

 

I approve this message!

[Anelyn]

Also rereading your post

I'm nearly certain going into cover won't stop a pull

If it does I'd feel like an idiot for missing out on it all this time

It just gives you a block against a ranged attack

 

You are immune to charge / pull mechanics while in cover. You do not need real cover, just crowching (take cover in place) does it. The only difference between op and sniper cover is that they can't be interrupted on their cast abilities, while we still can, but neither can be charged or pulled (by enemy).

 

There is a thread on smuggle forums with videos showcasing how to use it

[billrizer]

If u are interested in hybrid build, you can try this: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401rfcMdhoozZMI0Rdkb.1, or something similar. You can adjust points in low level of tree, but i recommend to keep Tactical Opportunity and Energy Screen. You have ability to do some dmg and instant healing. Pop Cloaking screen+sleep dart to apply debuff when u feel u need to heal up or need extra control. If you want to make a special spec for dueling with tank shadow, then prob should move some points to imperial brew.

 

The problem with this spec is lack of energy due to long time fighting, even you have Endorphin Rush. You need to spend some GCD for free shooting to control energy if possible. But it's effective for dueling and recover from opponent's burst. And always know when they will burst according to their buffs. Btw tank sin is really hard to duel with, don't know if things would go better after they buff our healing tree.

Edited February 28, 2012 by billrizer

[Arrys]

I think the only real chance is landing both openers and pulling off a full Flash Bang heal, while avoiding his Vanish>Sap>Seethe.

 

Are nades allowed? 12 meter diameter GTAOE without a 3 second channel. 4 second Stun that breaks on damage, 2k Dot, 55% snare, root. 6 min CD makes it 1 nade but it would be a vanish counter and you could chose your side effect. personally stun or big Dot.

 

Hey whats the difference between them and adrenals other than no one sells them on GTN.

[Anelyn]

Coot, the Sin I'm talking about is a guildmate of mine for 10 years. We were gladiator level Arena partners in WoW and have dueled each other a million times.

 

I do think your strat is the key to winning. The fact that the Tank Sin outclasses us(everyone?) it's going to require perfect play or forcing him to make a mistake. Should be fun. =)

 

I have to say, in terms of 1v1 duels, the game is pretty balanced, with the current exception of Assassin/Shadow tank spec's. I still want to see a Merc/Commando and Guardian/Jugg with Best in Slot gear and top skill compete. I've seen pretty much every other class beat every other class depending on the player.

 

Out of curiosity, did you duel assault vanguard in ion cell (tank one), or PT pyro? Their burst is out of this world even compared to ours, and you can't purge all his dots, and his railshot / HiB will simply **** us outside of evasion (I have a hard time with them without all CDs since if I don't crit, my dmg is laughable on their boosted heavy armor, while every attack they do pounds me to bits).

[Xavory]

Out of curiosity, did you duel assault vanguard in ion cell (tank one), or PT pyro? Their burst is out of this world even compared to ours, and you can't purge all his dots, and his railshot / HiB will simply **** us outside of evasion (I have a hard time with them without all CDs since if I don't crit, my dmg is laughable on their boosted heavy armor, while every attack they do pounds me to bits).

 

Yes, in the last tournament, the guy that beat me in the losers bracket was a full Pyro PT. And yes, his burst is from another planet. It was still close, he won 2:1 with each fight pretty much coming down to the last hit. I didn't use my purge enough as I was trying to play to offensively. He lost in the semi finals to a marauder 1:2. The game that he won against the Marauder, they were both at about 40% HP and the Pyro just insta-killed him before he could pop UR. It's a sight to behold

[Anelyn]

Ya that's what I pictured

 

I always purge if they are in Ion Cell as it costs 3 ammo / 25 heat to use the dot missile / shot and they don't get free dot from normal shots + combustive / plasma.

 

Am a bit surprised marauder (anni ofc) couldn't pull some wins vs the tank sin. They have very strong defensive CC's and good sustained / burst and self healing.