[Analysis] The state of Kinetic Shadow ( and Darkness Assassin) PvP.

[Dannicus]

Explain to me in the form of something other than a three paragraph essay why we need to give a stealth tank more survivability than it currently has?

 

In PVE it's ok because most enemies cause almost only white damage, as in non-tech/force. In PVP, most abilities are yellow, as in tech/force, and a couple of AC's and their particular trees (Marksman sniper here) are almost if not entirely white-damage based. Yellow damage does NOT trigger shields, and CANNOT be dodged/deflected or miss, and since lots of yellow damage is also internal/elemental armor doesn't mitigate the damage. I won't get into the aggravations this leads to as a MM sniper in PVP given this is a tank thread, but I can definitely tell you that my Vanguard is INCREDIBLY squishy, and stupidly so. Why? Because most attacks cause yellow damage, of which my being tank barely dents or diminishes the effects of. And then there's also the fact that half my talents do nothing because they rely on my shield proccing, which doesn't happen in PVP.

 

In all seriousness, PVP tanks only really are "tanks" by virtue of the taunt and guard skills. They truly have little against the majority of classes and attacks that their being a tank even matters against. This is a failure in the design for PVP in this game, really. They need to overhaul that aspect to be quite honest with you. I'd be ok with tanking stances causing less damage to players while active to help offset increased survivability, but at least then I could feel like a tank. I die as fast on my sniper as I do on my vanguard, and that's pretty damned retarded.

[AMKSED]

Er... you know that Shields don't work against Tech/Force attacks at all right?

 

And neither does Defense?

 

And almost all relevant attacks in PvP are either Tech or Force? The only exception to this being the Jedi Knight/Sith Warrior classes -- whose comparative ineffectiveness in PvP can be attributed to the fact that almost everything they do is subject to Shield/Defense checks but their own defenses only work well against... check this out... other Jedi Knights/Sith Warriors.

 

Go check out the abilities on TORHead if you don't believe me. Almost every single high-damage ability for almost every single class EXCEPT for Jedi Knights/Sith Warriors is a Force or Tech attack.

 

If tank defenses worked in PvP they wouldn't be overpowered... they would just be TANKS. They may even have a place in large-scale PvP such as in Ilum. Shadows and Assassins are particularly affected by this oversight because their low armor (the lowest of any tank class) is supposed to be offset by a higher shield and defense chance. Furthermore, their main defensive cooldown is ALSO tied to defense chance -- a statistic that is almost entirely circumvented in PvP.

 

lolno

 

Tanks would be mega overpowered if their defense abilities were able to take advantage of Force/Tech attacks.

[Alex-PcJ]

Shield works versus any attack that says "deals xxx weapon dmg" in the tooltip.

-No, if you think so give me the video pruf =) Even if they work, the chance is clearly much too low.

What are you gonna do besides this as tank geared? crit for 800?

No, I want to be able to defend against force/tech attacks with at least a small chance but not once in 1.5 minutes

And about the acc issue on Bm gear, you know you can swap those out right?

Yes, i do that. But why do I need to collect on a set larger than all the rest that would be capable in pvp? I believe that this is not correct.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Alex-PcJ

[Tiresias]

I would like to resurrect this thread for some more prime-time discussion. A few points of FACT that some of the respondents do not seem to understand:

 

1. An attack that does "weapon damage" is not necessarily a melee or ranged attack, and an attack that does kinetic/energy/elemental/internal damage is not necessarily a Force or Tech attack. Having said that, most attacks do follow these norms.

 

2. The fact that defense and shield chance is useless against most attacks from most classes results in certain classes being unfairly punished by these mechanics. For example, a Shadow has excellent defenses against a Sniper but practically no defenses against a Sorcerer -- the right answer should be a middle ground to avoid "hard counter" matchups that have been proven to suck the life out of moderate-scale PvP.

 

3. All tanks are punished by the failings of defense and shield chance in PvP. It makes the "defensive" set of armor basically useless and minimizes the impact of some cooldowns. However, the tanks are not affected equally:

-Vanguard/Powertech have high armor but rely on shield chance for damage-based procs.

-Guardian/Juggernaut have SIX talent points that can be spent to increase defense that end up underperforming in PvP.

-Shadows/Assassins have much lower armor than any other tank (a 5% differential even in bad gear that grows as gear gets better) and are expected to make up the difference with higher shield chance.

 

4. In some cases, DPS classes can muster much stronger defenses than Kinetic Shadows. Commando/Mercenary have an umbrella 25% damage reduction on a 2min cooldown. Sentinel/Marauder has an umbrella 20% damage reduction on a 1min cooldown that can potentially have a very high up-time.

 

 

I honestly believe that if the damage bugs on Project were fixed and if defense and shield chance were improved to function in PvP FOR EVERY CLASS we would see more Shadows and Assassins out there.

 

Anecdotal evidence: I played a same-faction Huttball game tonight where there was a total of 10 Jedi Counselors (the other 6 were Troopers... yeah) and I was the only Shadow. This is my experience in most Warzones: tons of Counselors and Inquisitors on both sides but I'm the only one with a double-bladed Lightsaber.

[ShadowOfVey]

I think if defense, shield etc just flat out worked on everything in pvp (at the existing rate it works on melee attacks etc) it'd be far too powerful.

 

If such stats did work on force/tech at a lower but still useful rate though, just enough to where it might be useful to use such stats in pvp, I'd be all for it.

[Khabarach]

-Guardian/Juggernaut have SIX talent points that can be spent to increase defense that end up underperforming in PvP.

Actually there are a grand total of 14 talent points in the Immortal tree that are based around Defense or Shield. they are:

 

(2) Quake - Accuracy is the counterpoint to Defense in the first combat roll. There's a reason PvP'ers swap out Accuracy mods if they can.

(2) Lash Out - Retaliation procs only when you successfully Defend. Unsuprisingly, it doesn't proc much in PvP

(3) Guard Stance - Straight Defense buff.

(3) Blade Barricade - Both procs from and buffs defense.

(2) Revenge - procs from Defense/Shield

(2) Shield Specialisation - buffs shield

 

It's actually impossible to avoid all of these when progressing up the tree, which kind of sucks.

 

Making Defense/Shield useful for PvP doesn't necessarily mean that tanks will be unkillable. They could easily do something like make defense/shield increase the effectiveness of guard or taunt on players. That way it'd increase the 'flavour' BW seems to want of tanks being protectors rather than damage soakers in PvP without it making tanks unstoppable.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Khabarach

[Halefthaut]

OP forgot to tell what server he plays on, because mine is overrun by shadows/sins in 10-49 pvp

 

That AC is the most balanced of all IMO

[IshyUK]

Agree with the OP 100%

[anstalt]

I don't think making shields work against all attacks would unbalance anything.

 

Atm, most pvp tanks wear DPS gear due to broken defensive stats. This allows them to do moderate damage whilst retaining great tank utility. However, their shield chance and absorb rate suffer as a result.

 

By fixing defensive stats, all that would happen is these tanks would gain a minor increase in survivability. Even at 50% shield chance / 50% absorb, that equates to roughly 25% damage reduction. PVP tanks geared for DPS dont even come close to those figures. My shadow, currently KC with DPS gear, has ~35% shield (with kinetic ward up) and maybe 25% absorb. Fixing defensive stats would only give me ~8.75% extra damage reduction compared to now against force/tech attacks. Hardly groundbreaking.

 

However, it would allow pvp tanks to start building for defence again. If PvP tanks built for defensive stats, they'd lose their DPS and hit like a wet fish, but they'd also be much more survivable. Thats what tanks are there for!

[Bastilara]

Slightly off-topic

 

Your argument for mind snap is that its only benefit for a 12s CD is a 10yd range, its also free of cost, whereas its 1 rage, 1 ammo, or 8 heat for the other tanks, while small, an interrupt every 8 seconds is a huge out on throughput.

 

My only complaint with Shadows is that project's dmg has delay and shocks is instant.

[Ahhmyface]

Darkness is better than deception, sad but true. I don't dispute the need to make force/tech attacks defendable, but I think deception needs a lot more help. We do maybe 30% more damage for half the survivability and 2/3 the utility.

[Niddhog]

The main difference being that a tank specced guardina/jugg does close to no dmg when compared to a darkness sin. We are by far the tank that does the most dmg.

 

The only wz where you would want a true tank (as in tank spec AND gear) is huttball and there juggs make for a better carrier not due to their mitigation but mostly due to their insane mobility alowing to bipass the y-axis. In every other wz i would pick a sin a thousand times before a jugg.

 

Going to nit-pick here. Its the "Z-axis" Yes... the Y-axis in a standard Cartesian plain looks up/down on a screen.. but its 2-D. Its meant to be looked down on (was invented LOOOOONG before computers- its supposed to be on a desk). Imagine Y-axis as north/south, and X-axis as east/west. Z-axis is added as up/down to make a Cartesian grid 3-D.

 

That being said, yes Juggs/Guardians are hands down the best ball carriers. Everyone knows this. They can instantly "pass" w/ 0% interception chance to any friendly OR enemy. This INSANE mobility compared with best defenses makes them hands down the champs. Knocked off? charge back up (friendly or enemy!) Better yet... there will always be an enemy respawning and poking his nose over the ledge to CHARGE/SCORE. In fact... as others have said they make the best reinforcers due to their better CD's/passive resistance (along with Vanguards, I'd kill for a flat % damage reduction CD)

 

As far as the original topic... I don't know how yall come up with definative #s about which tank does more damage. I always felt vanguards did the most- but then again they area ranged class (I know their ranged is weak, but still) and can constantly be shooting people as they run. However.... w/out an actual damage meter/training dummies to test (removing all external variables... damage done at end of WZ =/= damage meter... aoe, uptime, targets defenses/how often attacking guarded+defense CD usage... etc), how can we say, hands down, that Sin tank is significantly greater than the others? Or that its "comparable" aka within a 1-2% of vanguard. Maybe Guardian/vanguard is similar, but vanguard just has higher uptime of damage due to ranged? *shrugs*

 

Oh and upheaval taking my 2nd force potency charge does in fact piss me off >( PA DOES get bonus damage from FP now though, I noticed that overnight. It was nearly 1k extra damage! That being said, even with large surge our burst takes a long time to set up + usage of a cooldown, and includes a channeled spell. No... it can't be interrupted, but I don't know how many times a smart pvper just used a knockback/down on me to "interrupt" it.

 

Another issue... about allowing tanks to shield force/tech. Imagine your pvp gear had stats on it that only worked against 3/8 AC. Say it allowed you to deal extra damage against heavily armored foes only. So all the stats (besides base stat) on your pvp gear ONLY works on less than half the AC in the game? How pissed would you be? Welcome to being a tank. Aside from the odd accuracy, all of our tanking pvp gear has absorb/shield chance/defense on them. These only block (most) of the damage of 3 classes (3 and a half really, even dps spec'ed sin/shadow deal their burst through force, the melee attacks are just there to beef up/proc the force ones). Yes, we can always swap mods. This entails buying all our pvp gear, THEN having to use extra columni/rakata/MOAR pvp gear to "fix" the stats. OR buy subpar leveled mods from the GTN (crafters can at most make 50 rating mods, columni/champ is 56, rakata/BM is 58). Thats just borked.

[Niddhog]

Slightly off-topic

 

Your argument for mind snap is that its only benefit for a 12s CD is a 10yd range, its also free of cost, whereas its 1 rage, 1 ammo, or 8 heat for the other tanks, while small, an interrupt every 8 seconds is a huge out on throughput.

 

My only complaint with Shadows is that project's dmg has delay and shocks is instant.

 

That 4 seconds when trying to kill a healer? FUUUUU makes all the difference. As a tank we sacrifice dps for survival/utility, so we can't just walk up and 3 shot a healer (least not a sin, see weak/long ramp up burst).

 

There is a lot of controversy over the project delay. It does allow you to stack more burst (especially as an infiltration) so that your project lands roughly at the same time as your next attack, making 2 GCD's hit in the same few split seconds. HOWEVER (especially on sages, where the rock might have to travel 30m) it gives extra time for a heal to land/reach a health power up, pop a defensive CD, etc.