The Suggestion Box

[mrHaterade]

@Dreegan, it does seem that way. I wouldn't be surprised if advanced classes were more specialized originally, but somewhere along the line talent trees became more powerful. It does make for more interesting and evolutionary gameplay, but it obviously has its drawbacks.

 

All in all I like the current setup. It's nice that I can just change my spec to get a whole new style of gameplay out of my marauder. That said, it causes way too much overlap, and way too many jacks of all trades. Is there even a single specialist class in this game?

[xDreegan]

@Dreegan, it does seem that way. I wouldn't be surprised if advanced classes were more specialized originally, but somewhere along the line talent trees became more powerful. It does make for more interesting and evolutionary gameplay, but it obviously has its drawbacks.

 

All in all I like the current setup. It's nice that I can just change my spec to get a whole new style of gameplay out of my marauder. That said, it causes way too much overlap, and way too many jacks of all trades. Is there even a single specialist class in this game?

 

Sniper and Marauder are the only specialists so to speak. However, both of those classes don't have much changing between their trees.

 

For example, the only real difference between our three trees is what attacks we use the most. The actual playstyle doesn't change. Choosing between DoTs or regular Damageto wth this class is not hard to do. Speccing Anni or Carnage is only truly going to affect what abilities are on your bar and how often you hit them. Basic principles stay the same because no matter what we spec into, you're still just playing a Marauder. The rotations are simple and boring and don't allow for a lot of on the fly gameplay, aside from using our very situational defense skills and whether or not to pop Berserk or Predation. I don't disagree with talent trees, but some games do it better than other. They should've just made the advanced classes stand alone, picked a dedicated healer, support healed, tank and off-tank with their own DPS trees and whatnot. That way they could've designed better end-game content and not have to spread the utility ans abilities so thin that DPS classes have access to abilities only healers get, just because they have a heal tree.

 

Only reason the messed up classes and skill tree attempt haven't crushed this game is because its piss easy. Even our class is easy to understand. More key-bindings =\= higher skill cap. I hope they release an expansion within the year that does a hit of an overhaul.

[mrHaterade]

There's actually quite a bit of difference in potential play style between the three trees.

 

Annihilation requires you to drop and maintain dots on targets and try to maximize their crits to get healed. Because your Force Camo makes you invulnerable it allows you to pop in, bleed people, and pop out hit and run style if you like. Maybe drop a big Annihilate when you have the opportunity. If you want to you can go one on one since you have dots, heals, and that big hitter. It'll take a little longer, but you'll still put a hurt on that single target.

 

Carnage you need to be more careful about picking your battles since you only have one big hitting combo, no healing, and no invulnerability. You're best off going one on one so you pick off healers and stragglers.

 

Rage lets you run in, build a quick burst of rage, pop Crush, Force Camo out, then jump into a crowd and Hulk Smash for big numbers. You can then pop Berserk and commence to cleave the piss out of the group for even more decent numbers.

 

Clearly Annihilation gives you more options than the rest.

[mrHaterade]

Updated the list with more suggestions from the thread.

[Cindikle]

Chuckles. Like there's so many ways to roll Carnage. Give me a break, dude. Don't get all puffy and offensive just because you can't grasp the concepts. I fully read your post. It's flawed for the reasons I pointed out. Try again.

 

12 more damage?

 

Are you also counting Execute? 45% chance vs 15% chance to proc it. VS=50% chance to proc ataru=15% chance to proc Execute. Mass = 100% ataru proc + 50% chance to proc a second = 45% chance to proc Execute.

 

Or Sever? 30% surge to scream, mass and ataru?

 

More than one build existing does not make them all good. BW did a very good job on our class to prevent hybred specs. Only thing I've thought about was dropping anni points for rage points to beef up VS and get obliterate.

 

In the Carnage tree Massacre > VS.

[EasymodeX]

Chuckles. Like there's so many ways to roll Carnage. Give me a break, dude. Don't get all puffy and offensive just because you can't grasp the concepts. I fully read your post. It's flawed for the reasons I pointed out. Try again.

 

No really, when you don't even factor in crit or crit damage, why are you even bothering try to do an analysis?

 

Or rather, when you only factor in crit for one attack, and ignore crit or crit damage for the other attack ... please.

 

Like I said, your 'analysis' is a joke and you're just wasting your time.

[mrHaterade]

In the Carnage tree Massacre > VS.

Yes, if you're full Carnage, Massacre beats Vicious Slash. No one is disagreeing on that point. In Rage, however, Vicious Slash with Berserk is more effective than Massacre with Berserk in Carnage.

 

@Easymode, you apparently missed the point of the sub-discussion. I'm talking about the benefit of Berserk for Ataru vs Shii-Cho. Since Ataru assumes full spec in Carnage, and Shii-Cho assumes full spec in Rage we can also factor in its benefits for the form if fully spec'd in the corresponding tree.

 

At level 50 and in the exact same gear those are the numbers I see after fully respeccing to Carnage and Rage. Sorry, but Berserk has a lot better effect on Shii-Cho than Ataru. If you disagree you probably missed something or are thinking of some other angle. Again, I'm only talking about the benefit of Berserk for Ataru vs Shii-Cho, and therefor Carnage vs Rage.

[EasymodeX]

At level 50 and in the exact same gear those are the numbers I see after fully respeccing to Carnage and Rage. Sorry, but Berserk has a lot better effect on Shii-Cho than Ataru. If you disagree you probably missed something or are thinking of some other angle. Again, I'm only talking about the benefit of Berserk for Ataru vs Shii-Cho, and therefor Carnage vs Rage.

 

+50% single target DPS > random cleave, unless your random cleave managed to hit the tank that is guarding the target you are attacking.

 

Just to make it abundantly clear since you fail to understand Massacre:

 

1. My highest damage Massacre was 4600 damage, including all procs. (Edit: My highest non-Gore'd at 3400).

 

2. My highest damage VS in any spec was 2800 or so (I don't VS as often in any spec as I Massacre; harder to remember). (Edit2: I could probably do 3k if I used it more).

 

 

+50% on 4600 > +100% on 2800, especially when that +100% is on a random target.

Edited March 5, 2012 by EasymodeX

[mrHaterade]

In my current gear, with Carnage I crit on average ~2,000 with Massacre. Same gear with Rage I crit on average ~2,000 with Vicious Slash. No, that's not a typo. On average they're about the same. That's last week, all the same gear, all on the same npc's, in a controlled environment. Using Berserk that's (~2,000 * 6) * 2 with 0 rage in Shii-Cho form vs ~2,000 * 0 with 0 rage in Ataru form. Do you see the difference now?

[EasymodeX]

1. That clearly doesn't include Ataru procs. Massacre gets 1.5 Ataru procs on average.

2. That doesn't include Gore. Gore has a 4.5 usable/15s uptime, or 30%. 30% average ArPen > 20%.

3. The "*2" for ShiiCho Berserk does not affect your primary target, e.g. what you are trying to kill in 90% of cases.

 

Like I said, when you don't include half the mechanics into consideration, your comparison is a joke.

[mrHaterade]

1. That clearly doesn't include Ataru procs. Massacre gets 1.5 Ataru procs on average.

2. That doesn't include Gore. Gore has a 4.5 usable/15s uptime, or 30%. 30% average ArPen > 20%.

3. The "*2" for ShiiCho Berserk does not affect your primary target, e.g. what you are trying to kill in 90% of cases.

 

Like I said, when you don't include half the mechanics into consideration, your comparison is a joke.

1. At level 50 in my gear, yes, that includes the free Ataru proc, but not the possible second proc since it's rng.

2. No it doesn't include Gore, because as I said this discussion revolves around Berserk's effectiveness. Not how much Gore adds to Massacre. Should we also include having a Juggernaut friend sundering their armor before you go crazy on target with Vicious Slash?

3. Then Smash damage shouldn't include any other target than your primary, right? Sorry, but no. You are damaging another opponent which provides a service to your team or yourself, therefore yes, it is a factor.

 

You are trying to change the argument. Sorry, but your straw men won't stand here. Berserk. B. E. R. S. E. R. K. Berserk is not as effective for Ataru as with Shii-Cho.

Edited March 5, 2012 by mrHaterade

[EasymodeX]

1. At level 50 in my gear, yes, that includes the free Ataru proc, but not the possible second proc since it's rng.

 

Really, no.

 

Using an endgame gear set, Massacre itself crits for 3287 before armor. Ataru crits for 997. Massacre crits 29%. Ataru at 35%. Approximately 70% surge, for 100% crit damage.

 

Vicious Slash crits for 3395 before armor. Crits 44%. For 70% crit damage.

 

Using your biased example where Gore does not exist, despite being a part of Carnage spec, Massacre does 2697 on average. 25.41%

 

VS does 2025 on average. 22.47%

 

On average, with Gore, Massacre does 3616.

 

On average overall, with 30% Gore uptime, Massacre does 2973.

 

Ataru Berserk increases DPS by 1349-1808, or 1486 on average on the same target. Edit: Actually more like 1578 on average, considering that you would only use Berserk when Gore is active anyways.

 

ShiiCho Berserk increases DPS by 2025 on average, on a second target.

 

 

2. No it doesn't include Gore, because as I said this discussion revolves around Berserk's effectiveness. Not how much Gore adds to Massacre. Should we also include having a Juggernaut friend sundering their armor before you go crazy on target with Vicious Slash?

 

If you're not going to include same-spec abilities, why don't you try using VS in Rage spec without, say, the 20% armor pen? Or 15% crit? Or ShiiCho stance at all? Maybe VS without Berserk at all?

 

 

You are trying to change the argument. Sorry, but your straw men won't stand here.

 

Sorry, but when your "argument" is so horrifically terrible, I take it upon myself to replace it with something more coherent.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Averran
ic

[mrHaterade]

Really, no. ... Using your biased example... ... If you're not going to include same-spec abilities ...

Really yes, because those are actual numbers I've seen on my screen, not theory craft. And it's not biased at all. It's a discussion regarding Berserk and its effects on the abilities it augments. Not Gore. Not Smash. Not Force Charge. Berserk. Dunno why you can't seem to grasp that concept.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Averran
ic

[EasymodeX]

Really yes, because those are actual numbers I've seen on my screen, not theory craft.

 

And I've seen 4600 damage off a Massacre. So?

 

 

It's a discussion regarding Berserk and its effects on the abilities it augments. Not Gore. Not Smash. Not Force Charge. Berserk. Dunno why you can't seem to grasp that concept.

 

Gore augments Berserk's augmentation of Massacre.

 

Get over it.

[JGames]

It's not very serious, but I do think that Force Scream is not named good. It should be Force Growl or something of the sort, because when I think of a Scream I think of something high-pitched, not the sound a lion makes.

 

Just saying.

[mrHaterade]

And I've seen 4600 damage off a Massacre. So?

So... look again at your quote vs my reply.

 

Gore augments Berserk's augmentation of Massacre.

Yet Berserk does not augment Gore. L2R.

Edited March 6, 2012 by mrHaterade

[xDreegan]

Bump so it stays on the main page.

 

As per the argument. No one's stated whether or not they even actually notice Berserks lowered CD effect or not. During my play on Carnage I didn't. And would honestly rather pop Predation or Bloodthirst over Berserk as it's more useful in all scenarios. You two can finish your argument when the combat log is released in the 1.2 patch. Until then, kindly keep this thread on it's original purpose. If you're going to try to discuss a point please do so by replying to the other persons ENTIRE POST instead of picking and choosing what to pick apart. It makes you look bad.

[mrHaterade]

@Dreegan, agreed. It was an obvious derailment attempt and some offensive posts were flagged and subsequently removed.

 

I'm taking time off my 'rauder right now to level my 'sassin, and I'll be damned if I'm not taking out targets noticeably faster. It's also a lot easier to survive getting gang blasted. And I'm Deception spec! It just drove the point home that the 'rauder needs some work. I still stand by my suggestion for Overwhelm granting immunity. It would kill two birds with one stone. First, it would allow us to get our damage on target. Second, it would increase our survivability.

[Xerain]

I'm taking time off my 'rauder right now to level my 'sassin, and I'll be damned if I'm not taking out targets noticeably faster. It's also a lot easier to survive getting gang blasted. And I'm Deception spec! It just drove the point home that the 'rauder needs some work. I still stand by my suggestion for Overwhelm granting immunity. It would kill two birds with one stone. First, it would allow us to get our damage on target. Second, it would increase our survivability.

 

I'm basically doing the samething! Sure i'm killing stuff faster in pve but in pvp... lowbie assassin pvp is balls. i'm like lvl 33-34... Oh and some of those talents are OP'ed.

[mrHaterade]

I'm basically doing the samething! Sure i'm killing stuff faster in pve but in pvp... lowbie assassin pvp is balls. i'm like lvl 33-34... Oh and some of those talents are OP'ed.

Yeah some of them are definitely a bit overpowered, but I just maintain the list. Feel free to discuss though.

 

I'm diggin' my 'sassin, man. The play style is very similar to a marauder in my opinion, but assassins are just better suited to handle it. Plus I'm tearing it up in PvP.

[mrHaterade]

Suggestion: Make marauders at least as good as assassins. I love my assassin.

[Xerain]

Suggestion: Make marauders at least as good as assassins. I love my assassin.

 

It's because assassins have a ton of *********** great talents in low tiers of all their trees...

[mrHaterade]

Oh yeah they do! But it's also because the class itself is super fun to play because there's so much they can do. Some random guy asked if I could tank for his pug last night and I told him I'm not tank spec and don't have a shield. He was like, "What else is an assassin good for?!" I just laughed.

[-Oreos-]

only a few things. not sure if they were mentioned.

 

offhand dmg - should be increased. hopefully to at least 75-80% of main hand dmg.

 

gore - should proc off of ataru form (giving the ataru form a reason to be specced into as opposed to a 25% chance to proc a tickle to the opponent).

 

annihilate - dmg is good, but the proc that it creates is kind of stupid imo. yes it may be useful in pve, but in pvp how many times do you really use annihilate that can make use of the time reduction for the 3 procs.

 

for pve it's fine, for pvp the properties should be changed to something like annihilate should have a chance to proc a bleed or something.

 

massacre - dmg should be halved but hit 4 times (consider how many times ur swinging ur light sabre around). that way the overall dmg can be increased by having certain hits crit, and others not.

 

i think that is all...

[mrHaterade]

A few things have been suggested for the offhand, including damage. I like your suggestions for Gore and Massacre though and added them to the list. Not sure what you want down for Annihilation, but if you flesh it out I'll add it.