Healers unbeatable solo

[SpaniardInfinity]

Anyway, to my mind there are three main issues with healing in the game at present:

 

• The main one is that Expertise results in a net bonus to healing when all things are equal since damage and mitigation offset each other. Even if you think it's totally balanced now, it's not scaleable (or, rather, it scales too well).

 

[...]

 

Now as I say, I'm not too concerned about healers right now because I can kill them eventually, even if it takes a while. However, the way Expertise works simply means that healing will vastly outstrip damage as Expertise increases.

 

As I say, mitigation and damage offset one another if their Expertise values are equal, which makes each individual heal proportionally more powerful. Let's also consider that new gear will likely have additional Endurance. This means that, within a tier or two more of gear, healer Effective Health will get to the point where it will be a significant balance issue. Rather than hit all healers with a giant nerf bat, I'd prefer if Bioware were able to address those scaling issues sooner rather than later. I suspect they won't, however, and we'll end up with a lot of angry healers

 

The reason healing is "unchecked" by gear is because healers have to fight a global -30% healing received debuff called Trauma on anyone recently engaged in combat. Speaking from a Combat Medic, there is only one way in full Champion gear I can completely break even on that -30% healing debuff: have Kolto Residue from Kolto Bomb on my target (+10%) and Supercharged Cells active (+10%). The +10% increase from my Champion gear allows me to nuetralize the Trauma debuff for the maximum of 10 seconds that I can have all of those criteria met.

 

I won't speak for the other healers over how they break even on this, since I'm not completely familiar with how their healing synergizes with their other abilities/talents. Still, I imagine that we are always trying to break even, and at Battlemaster, there should be at least sometime with our skills that we can actually have a net healing buff from our talents (Combat Medic actually gets net +5% healing on all recently engaged-in-combat targets when all the criteria I previously mentioned are met, assuming full BM gear).

 

The second is that in other games healers have a finite amount of resources. Even if it takes forever without making a dent in their health, eventually they will run out of mana. In this game, compounded by the Expertise issue above, small or medium heals can be interwoven pretty much constantly without ever running out. There are also no resource-affecting debuffs which are the usual counter to healing classes - Mana Burn, for example.

 

As for this, speaking again from a Combat Medic, our resource management is critical to our healing output. Our primary heal costs 25% of our resource to use, unless paired with Advanced Medical Probe for a one-two heal that can only be done once every 9 seconds. If we drop below 8 ammo, 75% of our resource, our resource regeneration drops. Our regeneration continues to drop as our ammo count drops. Assuming I need to be healing significant amounts, there is a very good chance I will not remain resource neutral (optimum) and will need to start bleeding myself dry to keep allies alive. There are ways to allievate this problem through cooldowns for Combat Medics:

 

1. Reserve Powercell - allows us to make one ability cost 0 ammo, on a 2-minute cooldown

2. Recharge Cells ("Reload") - Regenerates a significant amount of our ammo instantly, jump starting our regeneration rate. 2-minute cooldown. Can provide additional ammo instantly if talented. NOTE: We cannot use this to avoid our regeneration! Dropping below optimum ammo regeneration again means we now need to wait for it to return naturally.

3. Supercharged Cells - grants 2 ammo instantly. Because it allows our healing abilities to cost less if chained during this period, we are often saving ammo if used wisely. This has no cooldown, but we only get supercharged by building a charge through healing with that expensive heal or with our small heal Hammer Shot (damage done by Hammer Shot also builds charge).

 

Again, I won't speak for the classes I don't play.

Edited February 22, 2012 by SpaniardInfinity

[ScipioAemilianus]

while this is a big issue, I honestly see BW making strides to correct things that are not working as intended. its almost like when they tested teh game they all were level 50's in full epics. not to mention all the people who want this to drop faster by saying everything worked fine.

 

what will solve this is players having constructive dialog on the issue and not resolving into an epeen fight. Yes it is fun to rolfstomp players all day, but at a certain point its not goign to be over all fun.

 

I can only urge dialog, constructive as well as giving BW time to fix the interupt, I belive they are goign to be doing this. . .I hope they do. then once that is done let the cement dry before tweeking anything else. They can work on bugs on Illum and the overall idea of how that is supposed to work out.

 

what doesn't help is when players want to stay as the Flavor and will fight anything that constitutes progress.

[Ahhmyface]

I don't think healing needs to be reduced, but I do think the players who spec deep into a damage tree should have the tools to take down a healer.

 

The sniper/gunslinger should have a healing reducer, and the dps trees should have an attack that increases cast times or drains the targets resource pool.

 

This is my opinion as well.

 

Healers should easily heal enough to keep another person up in pvp. But they should not heal THEMSELVES enough that they can easily tank a dps on them. They are supposed to be a squishy support class.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[Brittaany_Banks]

Sage Sorceror healing absurdity (in PvP and PvE) is one of the things slated to be addressed in 1.2. I don't play one so I don't understand the specifics of the mechanic that is not working as intended, but they are not supposed to be as much better than the other healers as they presently are.

 

The only "absurdity" they are speaking of is the ability to cast 2 delieverances in a row at 1.4 seconds each with one conveyance proc which was never intended anyway. Everything else will remain the same

[Mertissielle]

The reason healing is "unchecked" by gear is because healers have to fight a global -30% healing received debuff called Trauma on anyone recently engaged in combat. Speaking from a Combat Medic, there is only one way in full Champion gear I can completely break even on that -30% healing debuff: have Kolto Residue from Kolto Bomb on my target (+10%) and Supercharged Cells active (+10%). The +10% increase from my Champion gear allows me to nuetralize the Trauma debuff for the maximum of 10 seconds that I can have all of those criteria met.

 

I won't speak for the other healers over how they break even on this, since I'm not completely familiar with how their healing synergizes with their other abilities/talents. Still, I imagine that we are always trying to break even, and at Battlemaster, there should be at least sometime with our skills that we can actually have a net healing buff from our talents (Combat Medic actually gets net +5% healing on all recently engaged-in-combat targets when all the criteria I previously mentioned are met, assuming full BM gear).

 

It's not really about breaking even with the Trauma debuff though, as that in itself is just a band-aid fix and is always active in PvP combat, unavoidably. As a result, DPS and Heals are all balanced around the assumption that it's always there.

 

Its existence by itself doesn't change the fact that gear inflation will lead to healing and Effective Health levels being significantly higher proportionally to the damage coming in. Unless the Trauma debuff were to increase in severity as you geared up but that'd be... weird.

 

But yeah, if Trauma was taken out and eveyone had 30% more damage / EH then in real terms, it'd be exactly the same as now, so in terms of future scaleability it's kind of a non-issue. Expertise bonuses to healing beyond Battlemaster will still lead to healing being increasingly more powerful, with less ways to counter it. So there are two options: either take steps now to change the system so it can scale linearly with damage and mitigation or wait until it gets out of hand and then nerf like crazy (possibly by making Trauma a higher percentage, which will mainly harm those with lower gear levels).

 

Even though I'm not a healer, I'd prefer they addressed this now and future-proofed the gearing system than unleash a carnival of nerfs and make everyone mad.

[Raque]

If a healer can not out heal a single DPSers damage, why would you ever bring a healer? An extra DPS would be far more valuable.

 

Because of this, a healer should be nearly unkillable by a single equally geared and played DPS.

[Brittaany_Banks]

If a healer can not out heal a single DPSers damage, why would you ever bring a healer? An extra DPS would be far more valuable.

 

Because of this, a healer should be nearly unkillable by a single equally geared and played DPS.

 

This. It is more than enough we have an automatic 30% heal debuff in pvp combat to deal with AND are marked almost instantly in warzones as the healer. Further nerfing our healing output would kill the class.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Brittaany_Banks

[EternalFinality]

It's true - you cannot beat a *geared* healer solo as any melee class. Even a Sentinel.

 

And yes, that includes interrupting everything possible.

[Ahhmyface]

If a healer can not out heal a single DPSers damage, why would you ever bring a healer? An extra DPS would be far more valuable.

 

Because of this, a healer should be nearly unkillable by a single equally geared and played DPS.

 

Wrong. A healer should get his *** beat by an equally geared dps. People play healers to heal OTHER PEOPLE. If healer2 that i am not touching is healing healer 1 while i beat on him, then fine, I don't need to be able to kill him.

 

In no circumstances should the healer be able to self-heal through a dps blowing all his cooldowns., interrupting, ccing, using stims/adrenal.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[EternalFinality]

If a healer can not out heal a single DPSers damage, why would you ever bring a healer? An extra DPS would be far more valuable.

 

Because of this, a healer should be nearly unkillable by a single equally geared and played DPS.

 

Healers should have the lowest damage mitigation and be able to be killed if attacked alone.

 

Heals on people with higher damage mitigation are healing for a much higher equivalent HP. That's why you bring healers - they keep up the other people.

 

A healer should be able to outheal the damage from a dps if free casting. NOT if they're being harassed themselves. Yet in TOR, many can.

Edited February 22, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Brittaany_Banks]

Wrong. A healer should get his *** beat by an equally geared dps. People play healers to heal OTHER PEOPLE. If healer2 that i am not touching is healing healer 1 while i beat on him, then fine, I don't need to be able to kill him.

 

In no circumstances should the healer be able to self-heal through a dps blowing all his cooldowns., interrupting, ccing, using stims/adrenal.

 

WE are already squishy enough. We use light armor. Everyone else is using medium and heavy armor. Factor that into your BS argument as well kid

[Ahhmyface]

WE are already squishy enough. We use light armor. Everyone else is using medium and heavy armor. Factor that into your BS argument as well kid

 

QQ more. What argument? Fact: healers are not squishy. Nobody cares what the armor type is if you don't die. That is the point of the thread. Have you been asleep or can you just not read?

[Krytycal]

Confirming I've been able to solo kill every healer I've encountered in HoG as deception sin and pyro PT.

[Lasarith]

Im allmost All purple gear - and Even I Cant Kill a single Healer commando - Useing all interrups ect, Plus they Seem to be on my Server Going in pairs so it's 2 healers vs 1 DPs.

[roccorossi]

I can only assume you are playing a tankspecced Guard/Jugg and considering you dont even know how many heals Sage/Sorcs have... yeah

 

A respectable melee with decent gear has no problem harassing a healer so much he has to stop healing his team and focus on himself, so you are helping your team winning the WZ, whats the issue again here?

 

Oh, that you want to kill everyone solo, right

Do us a favor and play some CoD for the istant gratification you so badly need

 

 

 

^^^ This ^^^^

 

and /thread

[veyl]

Wrong. A healer should get his *** beat by an equally geared dps. People play healers to heal OTHER PEOPLE. If healer2 that i am not touching is healing healer 1 while i beat on him, then fine, I don't need to be able to kill him.

 

In no circumstances should the healer be able to self-heal through a dps blowing all his cooldowns., interrupting, ccing, using stims/adrenal.

 

Yeah, you have no clue what you're talking about.

 

If a DPS is on a healer and the healer is forced to heal just himself: THAT IS A BALANCED SYSTEM. Why? Their team is dying. In the case of most warzones, if one dps is consistantly on a healer and the healers team does nothing about it, that team will more than likely lose the match. Its a trade off that any team should gladly sacrifice.

 

Now if the Healer was able to heal himself and two other people at the same time, that's when nerfs should happen because that's when they're OP. ( currently not possible because of 30% trauma debuff) Or if the same healer was able to kill the DPS and never worry about dying... That should also be nerfed.

 

As for the Sorc/sage healer complaints: I've never seen a marauder/sentinel or stunlocking Operative/smuggler have an issue with them.

 

I have seen Operatives kite around a few people though...

[Ahhmyface]

Or if the same healer was able to kill the DPS and never worry about dying... That should also be nerfed.

 

 

 

Your words. Because that is the current state of dps vs healer 1v1. Sure, maybe its a fair tradeoff in a warzone if you keep him healing himself. I can fight a healer for upwards of 2-3 minutes. But I always eventually die. We're not talking about warzones though, where I have a team, and would just get somebody else to help. Solo. REad the title of the damn thread.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[Corran]

Since they can't kill you just leave them alone...walk away from the fight and let them play in their sandbox alone. No one is making you fight them.

 

What would be stupid is sticking around and loosing when your could have gotten away. They will eventually wear you down if they are trying.

 

Go find a buddy and get him later if your the vengful type.

 

Edit: you can beat them if they are trying to beat you...but you have to interupt them...but if they are only using their heals then just leave the fight.

 

this is bad advice unless you are talking about world pvp

 

 

in warzones - a team vs. team game - SOMEBODY had better be pressuring that healer so they are more concerned with keeping themselves alive than anything else. PVP 101

[JiUasp]

Resource fatigue/draining, and it having a significant impact on a healer's survivability, is a missed mechanic here that would add some depth/complexity to fights. It should be as important as range is to melee. Otherwise you end up with stun/burst being the only thing that matters, (I know it will always matter, but it doesn't have to be the only thing that matters).

 

Saw the same thing in WoW at some point, (no idea how it is now), and the same thing in Rift. I generally don't have a problem with the amount of healing/survivability a class has so much as whether or not it's an endless supply.

 

Can I just say that I am a Sage healer and I run out of force QUICKLY without anyone draining it from me. A good healer who's keeping themselves (if focused on by dps) or a group of 3 or more up at a time, will RUN OUT of force well before the fight is over. Without you taking it from them.

 

They even gave us a move called Noble Sacrifice because they anticipate our force draining so quickly while keeping everyone up. Hitting the move restores a very little bit of force, but you lose your own life as well, making yourself an easy target. Your only other choice then, once the pressures on, is to run away, break combat and mediate and hope that you're able to evade the attack with enough time to run back and try to heal whoevers left still fighting.

 

Honestly if another class could drain my force, I'd be literally USELESS and respec to a hybrid dps sage. That's not what someone who delved deep into the healing tree at a great cost to damage/put in the work to actually GET the expertise gear deserves.

[Redae]

I'm a level 42 madness assassin.

 

I don't have much of a problem going against sage healers. Commmando's are a tougher fight however.

[Araudry]

Healers should not be able to be solo'd.

 

Lol..

[Rykke]

I used to be a Shield/Pyro powertech and healers while were definitely difficult to break through, I could scare them off or even kill them when I had adrenals and relics up. It was really easy to keep them occupied between all the ways I could interrupt.

 

I recently changed to deep Pyro because my friend wanted to try tanking on his Juggernaut and now healers do not stand a chance at all. I no longer need to rely on relics or adrenals and they will still go down. Despite losing an interrupt from no longer having access to Jet Charge, I still handle healers just fine. In fact I killed a full champion geared commando heals through guard..

[Kiphere]

It is important for everyone to realize that all PVP should be balanced with 1v1 in mind. We cannot consider any other situations other than a sterile environment with no other factors in play. If 1 class is consistently beaten by another class in this situation the game is obviously broken.

 

In the case of healers vs melee, a healer does relatively weak damage compared to their DPS spec and they are able to heal. the Melee is doing damage that is getting healed by the healer, this is obviously overpowered and needs to be dealt with. The melee class needs some sort of way to stop the healer from healing, something that makes the cast fail to complete, interupt it so to speak. Also, healers shouldn't be able to heal damage.

 

1v1 PVP is what MMOs are all about. They have multiple players available in the game so that you have more opportunities for 1v1 matches against your peers. In situations such as this where 1 class has an obvious advantage over another class there has been a breakdown in the overall "purpose" of a MMO. It's like sitting at home with a friend playing rock paper scissors except you've chosen to play as Rock and he's chosen to play as Paper.

 

Bioware, please listen to the people posting these sorts of issues, they know what they're talking about.

[Senefera]

Labradoraki again... Edited February 22, 2012 by Senefera

[Frankyblue]

this is bad advice unless you are talking about world pvp

 

Omg all of you just going off about wz's. This thread is about WORLD PVP . It isn't about running into a healer while your alone for 10 seconds in a wz. It is about running into a healer that is alone while your alone off doing stuff in the world. At least read all of the OP's post in a thread before you go puking your off topic rants and correcting people that are right in the first place.