Playing a sorc, hoping for a sorc nerf

[MiketheApostate]

Well, if there are 2.5 builds, and only one has it, then by math wouldn't you say that even most do not

 

Not trying to be contrarian, it just seems that it was assumed that this is par for the course of sorc builds. In PVP, in my experience, it's common but not that common.

[MiketheApostate]

I'm curious how these sorc players claiming they are squishy would react to having to play a Scoundrel / Operative out of stealth.

No doubt that those both are far more squishy to play. Sorc feels squishy when out bubble is burst and on CD, but I don't think it's even close to as squishy as this.

[Yutaa]

What makes you squishy? Please do enlighten me.

 

We have zero damage mitigation/damage immune abilities and light armor.

 

As for absorbtion with bubble - we spend 1 gcd to pop it, you spend 1 gcd to break it. Ok sometimes 2 gcd...

 

Result - We can't toe on toe with equally geared...anyone.

 

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So as a BM sage I will really welcome TW/CL AOE nerf.

Because this will reduce whining, hopefully reduce sorc/sage population and after this nerf our problems will become visible.

[Valsdad]

We have zero damage mitigation/damage immune abilities and light armor.

 

Name a mitigation ability that a DPS spec has that you would like as a sorc / sage. (other than mara / sent) and then prove to me how light armor is any different mitigation wise that any other armor class. To validate this, I would like to see a difference in mitigation beyond 10%.

 

As for absorbtion with bubble - we spend 1 gcd to pop it, you spend 1 gcd to break it. Ok sometimes 2 gcd...

 

What about the GCD's and cool downs spent to actually get to you multiple times? Yes, multiple times, because of your stuns, snares, knock back, and your own sprint.

 

Result - We can't toe on toe with equally geared...anyone.

 

The reason people complain is that you never have to go toe to toe with anyone. If you are toe to toe with a melee class; it is you who made the mistake. Not to mention that there are multiple classes and specs with less ability to survive.

 

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So as a BM sage I will really welcome TW/CL AOE nerf.

Because this will reduce whining, hopefully reduce sorc/sage population and after this nerf our problems will become visible.

 

Yes, Sorc / Sage totally need buffs.

[EternalFinality]

Well, if there are 2.5 builds, and only one has it, then by math wouldn't you say that even most do not

 

Not trying to be contrarian, it just seems that it was assumed that this is par for the course of sorc builds. In PVP, in my experience, it's common but not that common.

 

It depends on the ratio of Sorcs using each build. It's not equal.

[EternalFinality]

As for absorbtion with bubble - we spend 1 gcd to pop it, you spend 1 gcd to break it. Ok sometimes 2 gcd...

 

Sometimes more.

 

Also, your GCD to put it up doesn't have to occur in combat.

 

Result - We can't toe on toe with equally geared...anyone.

 

A healing Sorc can survive infinitely against a single person.

 

Also, this game is about group PvP, not 1v1s.

Edited February 24, 2012 by EternalFinality

[MiketheApostate]

It depends on the ratio of Sorcs using each build. It's not equal.

Absolutely. In my experience, I've seen a lot more people using the 0/13/28 builds than other DPS builds. I may be wrong, and my local sample more skewed versus a global one.

[pathiss]

A healing Sorc can survive infinitely against a single person.

 

Also, this game is about group PvP, not 1v1s.

 

This is a flat out wrong. While its true that a sorc can survive infinitely against people that don't know how to interrupt or use cc / combined with poor dps, it quite simply isnt true when a player has half a brain and uses interrupts and cc. Players that half a brain, destroy equally geared sorcerers unless they are guarded.

[Erasimus]

Absolutely. In my experience, I've seen a lot more people using the 0/13/28 builds than other DPS builds. I may be wrong, and my local sample more skewed versus a global one.

 

First I have both a 50 Gunslinger and a 50 DPS Hybrid Sorcerer, the Gunslinger is my main.

 

The Hybrid builds for Sorcerers are common for several reasons, but one of the primary reasons is that the top tier talents are pretty useless in PvP situations. Even with the top tier talents Sorcerers really don't have any burst comparable to other classes.

 

To be viable in PvP on my Sorcerer I have really no choice but to go hybrid. I find that in PvP on my Sorcerer I mostly focus on keeping pressure on the healers with AoE, using CC to help keep our healers alive, etc. 1vs1 against any equally geared competent DPS class is usually a loss. To win I have to run, CC, slow, DoT, basically use all my abilities to have a fair chance of winning and hope at least some of the slows and other abilities of my opponent are on cool down.

 

But then PvP is seldom 1v1. If I can sneak around, cast my AoE, DoTs, and channeled spells uninterrupted I can do good damage. But then letting someone cast TMs or GMs uninterrupted is much worse.

 

The Hybrid Sorcerer is a jack of all trades and while he/she doesn't have any glaring weakness neither does he/she have really outstanding strength.

 

Any changes would have to be carefully thought out to keep Sorcerers/Sages viable in PvP and I don't see much evidence of that here. Mostly it would revolve around making top tier talents "must haves" while still keeping the class viable in PvP.

 

P.S. Sorcerers/Sages are not the only classes that use hybrid builds for PvP.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Erasimus

[EternalFinality]

This is a flat out wrong. While its true that a sorc can survive infinitely against people that don't know how to interrupt or use cc / combined with poor dps, it quite simply isnt true when a player has half a brain and uses interrupts and cc. Players that half a brain, destroy equally geared sorcerers unless they are guarded.

 

I am a geared Sentinel, the class with possibly the most interrupts and the best chance 1v1.

 

I cannot kill a geared healing Sorc in a purely 1v1 scenario. Not even close. Don't give me this "just interrupt and CC!" garbage. The Sorc can CC too. And once everything is on cooldown you're stuck watching them heal. They have too much escapability.

 

Next will be the "learn to play your class" nonsense. Whatever. We all know the truth.

Edited February 24, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Erasimus]

From what I've seen good groups focus the healer and he/she goes down quickly. I've taken down healing Sorcerers on my Gunslinger, but it is true that a really good one is difficult to take down, but so are other healing classes. If you keep a healer occupied that is just as valuable as a kill on another class.

 

One of the issues I've seen in WZs is people are often much more concerned with medal farming than in winning. This even happens in 50 WZs which I really don't understand and of course you don't get medals for keeping a healer occupied or taking twice as long to kill a healer.

 

 

P.S. Maybe there should be a medal bonus for getting the killing blow on a healer

Edited February 24, 2012 by Erasimus

[Spifnar]

Sorc Heals:

 

The bubble needs to be compared to an insta heal more than anything else. It's not a defensive cooldown.

 

It's on the GCD

It can't crit or benefit from alacrity

It has a 20(17)s cooldown per target

It can be precast

 

All of which makes it a cross between an insta-HoT and an insta-heal, but better than either. And makes sorc healing easier than any other healing class. The fix? Up the force cost, and move the 20% increase skill into the healing tree to limit hybrid healing.

 

-------

 

AE damage:

 

It's BW's fault that almost all of sorc burst, procs and insta damage are tied to AE.

 

CL should be a 2s cast and deal less damage. LS needs a damage buff skill high up in the lightning tree, enough that it outdamages new-CL significantly. Possibly buff the proc rate on Lightning Storm to compensate for lost AE damage.

 

Wrath needs to only be used on Crushing and LS. To compensate, it could also reset the cooldown on Shock. Note that shock is a force hog and already on a short cooldown, so this will slightly increase mobility at the cost of force.

 

-------

 

Utility:

 

Sorc low armor and lack of cooldowns means they need evasive abilities. All of their damage reduction abilities deal with being hard to get ahold of: speed, knockback/root, blind. With the above changes, and less huttball matches, sorc utility should be ok.

[Yutaa]

I am a geared Sentinel, the class with possibly the most interrupts and the best chance 1v1.

 

I cannot kill a geared healing Sorc in a purely 1v1 scenario. Not even close. Don't give me this "just interrupt and CC!" garbage. The Sorc can CC too. And once everything is on cooldown you're stuck watching them heal. They have too much escapability.

 

Next will be the "learn to play your class" nonsense. Whatever. We all know the truth.

 

show me how you can kill geared healing commando. They even don't care about your interrupts.

[iceperson]

I am a geared Sentinel, the class with possibly the most interrupts and the best chance 1v1.

 

I cannot kill a geared healing Sorc in a purely 1v1 scenario. Not even close.

 

that's because you're bad

[EternalFinality]

show me how you can kill geared healing commando. They even don't care about your interrupts.

 

I can't kill them either.

[XForget]

Reason 1:

 

 

Reason 3: Bioware isn't going to just simply nerf a class, they will change it so it is more viable in different ways (Operatives for example less damage.. more control), if this is less aoe damage and more single target damage I will take that any day. Less aoe damage and more control I will also take that.

 

I lol'd all the way to the grocery store, the operative nerf is the stupidest nerf ive ever seen, more control ? all they did was lower our damage to the ground, how does that give us more control lmfao

Edited February 24, 2012 by XForget

[Yutaa]

Sometimes more.

 

Get some gear.

 

A healing Sorc can survive infinitely against a single person.

What about healing commando?

 

Oh and I think you where whining about hybrid spec.

 

Also, this game is about group PvP, not 1v1s.

 

In many vs many situation the only reason to jump on other ranged is - they(merc/commando, sniper/gunsliger) may actually kill someone if left alone.

 

And if you left sage/sorc alone what will they do? I know the answer - they will get 300k damage medal.

Unacceptable.

[TetraCleric]

that's because you're bad

 

This. 1v1 against a healer sorc is an attrition race, and DPS will win the attrition because Force runs out quicker than health for a healer getting beat on by a competent player, and because the sorc doesn't have the dps capabilities to keep up with the sentinel.

Edited February 24, 2012 by TetraCleric

[Acyu]

 

 

A healing Sorc can survive infinitely against a single person.

 

 

 

 

no they can't lol. once you need to start using consumption to regenerate force, you're going to die because of the GCDs.

 

and yes, sorcerers do run out of force, o.m.g. impossibru!

 

when you need to heal against a high pressure class like a marauder, force runs out in 20-30 seconds. And this is when you need to somehow get off a CD so you can RUN and abuse LoS and take full advantage of the crap graphics engine and frame rate lag.

 

I'm glad this game doesn't perform like WoW, because healing sorcerers would be wrecked.

[BacklashEH]

If you are getting hit by aoe don't stand in it, the radius isn't that huge and there are few reasons for several people to be in that same radius.

 

If you are in an 8 man ops and you are the only healer, and you aren't getting guarded, it's a miserable experience once the opposition figures out they need to kill you first. If you haven't healed in this type of situation numerous times, you should try it before speaking on it.

 

If you couldn't outheal one players damage, how on earth would you even be able to play with 3 or more on you at all times?

 

If you are in an 8 man ops where you have a guard and a back up healer or two that actually know what they are doing, yes that's going to be a much more difficult situation to deal with. That's a group stacking problem though, you are always going to have an uphill battle if you are outstacked in this style of game. I'd be all for them making a dps only map at some point (my favorite kind of pvp)

 

I agree with the guy that said tk throw should have the slow removed in pvp.

 

I also agree that the bubble enhancement box should be moved into the heal tree and further up it. Even still, it negates 1 or 2 hits, and can be put on others. I'd rather enjoy having one thrown on me when I play my trooper.

 

Dots should also drop after the player that applies them dies.

 

I think you should also give knight/warrior the sprint ability on possibly a longer cooldown.

[MiketheApostate]

First I have both a 50 Gunslinger and a 50 DPS Hybrid Sorcerer, the Gunslinger is my main.

 

The Hybrid builds for Sorcerers are common for several reasons, but one of the primary reasons is that the top tier talents are pretty useless in PvP situations. Even with the top tier talents Sorcerers really don't have any burst comparable to other classes.

 

To be viable in PvP on my Sorcerer I have really no choice but to go hybrid. I find that in PvP on my Sorcerer I mostly focus on keeping pressure on the healers with AoE, using CC to help keep our healers alive, etc. 1vs1 against any equally geared competent DPS class is usually a loss. To win I have to run, CC, slow, DoT, basically use all my abilities to have a fair chance of winning and hope at least some of the slows and other abilities of my opponent are on cool down.

 

But then PvP is seldom 1v1. If I can sneak around, cast my AoE, DoTs, and channeled spells uninterrupted I can do good damage. But then letting someone cast TMs or GMs uninterrupted is much worse.

 

The Hybrid Sorcerer is a jack of all trades and while he/she doesn't have any glaring weakness neither does he/she have really outstanding strength.

 

Any changes would have to be carefully thought out to keep Sorcerers/Sages viable in PvP and I don't see much evidence of that here. Mostly it would revolve around making top tier talents "must haves" while still keeping the class viable in PvP.

 

P.S. Sorcerers/Sages are not the only classes that use hybrid builds for PvP.

I'm in much the same boat on my Sorc. It was either to focus on healing primarily, or do a hybrid build, to be competent in PVP. Possibly others may fare better with pure lightning or madness and I just suck, but I've tried enough different builds in PVP and PVE to break myself early on due to respec costs. And the hybrids are the only one that really put me on the charts per se.

 

The 1v1 scenarios are just entirely different. Some classes it seems we can wreck fairly easily, and some hold their own well, but a marauder eats through hybrid dps sorcs like nothing else and a good PT can cause serious trouble.

 

I think you're right, a pure nerf would miss the point, because hybrid builds are really what makes sorcs feel viable in a PVP sense. And if you simply nerf, that's not going to be addressed.

[Tallymon]

Name a mitigation ability that a DPS spec has that you would like as a sorc / sage. (other than mara / sent) and then prove to me how light armor is any different mitigation wise that any other armor class. To validate this, I would like to see a difference in mitigation beyond 10%.

 

Done. I'm not at home so I cant see armor reduction percentage on my sorcerer, but out of all my gear with armor rating it breaks down to: 3x BM pcs, 3x Champion pcs, 1x Rakata ----> and my armor rating is 2400 with this fairly decent setup.

 

You do the math I cant find any info. What % armor reduction is 2400? And how does that compare with medium armor and heavy armor?

 

I know that my compation who has 3000 armor rating has about 5% more mitigation than my sorc who has 2400. He also wears light armor (Xalek) so I assume the difference between medium armor and light is almost 10%, and between heavy and light might be even 15%.

 

Someone please do the math so the conjecture can stop

[Spero-Mcgee]

I'm curious how these sorc players claiming they are squishy would react to having to play a Scoundrel / Operative out of stealth.

 

As a healing scoundrel myself I do fairly well atm, not yet in the lvl 50 bracket though.

As a healer I'm never in stealth only before a big fight, maybe as an opener shoot first and then a dirty kick, flash bang and then get into healing, or straight away healing most of the time. I could do a dodge, vanish and then repeat above or even add to the dps and cc somewhat. Unless my team m8es are completely obvliously of my predicament, I won't have that much trouble even if a marauder jumps at me. Tendon blast, emergency medpac my *** if I'm in trouble and things usually work out just fine. In actuality this whole aspect of healing appeals to me greatly. A trooper healer no doubt can take the hits, but I gotta use my wits like it behooves a scoundrel. If not too many damage is inc, I can use the small heal to get my energy back. The real danger is but also challenge is managing the energy.

Scary part is though if we get interupted, we wont get upper hand which is a key mechanic in our healing mess that up and its gg on your part.

 

Done. I'm not at home so I cant see armor reduction percentage on my sorcerer, but out of all my gear with armor rating it breaks down to: 3x BM pcs, 3x Champion pcs, 1x Rakata ----> and my armor rating is 2400 with this fairly decent setup.

 

You do the math I cant find any info. What % armor reduction is 2400? And how does that compare with medium armor and heavy armor?

 

I know that my compation who has 3000 armor rating has about 5% more mitigation than my sorc who has 2400. He also wears light armor (Xalek) so I assume the difference between medium armor and light is almost 10%, and between heavy and light might be even 15%.

 

Someone please do the math so the conjecture can stop

 

According to the tooltip armor only reduces kinetic and energy attacks right?

Regardless of your armor, each class has it's share of dots, internal. elemental, mental damage all of which armor does nothing against. If your group is lacking the consular(SI version too I guess?) buff, you'll also be more vunerable against those kinds of attacks.

I'd have to say that a trooper has pretty good mitigation, heavy armor in both adv.class, both adv.class regardless of spec get reactive shield and adrenaline rush which helps you better survive.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Spero-Mcgee

[EternalFinality]

Get some gear.

 

Gear doesn't give 100% crit rate.

 

What about healing commando?

 

Can't kill them either. Already said this.

 

This. 1v1 against a healer sorc is an attrition race, and DPS will win the attrition because Force runs out quicker than health for a healer getting beat on by a competent player, and because the sorc doesn't have the dps capabilities to keep up with the sentinel.

 

Oh look, the bad spec Sorc leaks over into other topics defending himself.

Edited February 24, 2012 by EternalFinality

[FalmeseReb]

As a healing scoundrel myself I do fairly well atm, not yet in the lvl 50 bracket though.

As a healer I'm never in stealth only before a big fight, maybe as an opener shoot first and then a dirty kick, flash bang and then get into healing, or straight away healing most of the time. I could do a dodge, vanish and then repeat above or even add to the dps and cc somewhat. Unless my team m8es are completely obvliously of my predicament, I won't have that much trouble even if a marauder jumps at me. Tendon blast, emergency medpac my *** if I'm in trouble and things usually work out just fine. In actuality this whole aspect of healing appeals to me greatly. A trooper healer no doubt can take the hits, but I gotta use my wits like it behooves a scoundrel. If not too many damage is inc, I can use the small heal to get my energy back. The real danger is but also challenge is managing the energy.

Scary part is though if we get interupted, we wont get upper hand which is a key mechanic in our healing mess that up and its gg on your part.

 

 

 

According to the tooltip armor only reduces kinetic and energy attacks right?

Regardless of your armor, each class has it's share of dots, internal. elemental, mental damage all of which armor does nothing against. If your group is lacking the consular(SI version too I guess?) buff, you'll also be more vunerable against those kinds of attacks.

I'd have to say that a trooper has pretty good mitigation, heavy armor in both adv.class, both adv.class regardless of spec get reactive shield and adrenaline rush which helps you better survive.

 

Off topic, but on my sawbones I always try and keep at least 3 slow release hots up so i can keep upper hand up. sawbones with no upper hand may as well be dead already.