New Content: Solo Raiding(long read)

[Vincire]

I hate to burst your bubble, but maybe you're just not the type of person who likes to put in any effort in a video game? Why should a video game be dumbed down just for a specific group of gamers represented by you? I don't get it.

 

Lol!! As if raiders are the only folks who expend effort and everyone else is "welfare". News flash, there are many different type of effort. Your kind cacks me up.

[NoxiousAlby]

I stopped reading after this. Normal Mode operations are made specifically for casuals that don't have the time or skill to do the "real" operations. They are mind numbingly easy and take AT MOST 2-3 hours total to clear them both(with an entire week to do this before it resets). If you can't play this game for 2-3 hours a week to do something you are interested in doing then I don't think you are playing the right genre of video games when you decided to start playing an MMO, you're essentially wasting your money on the monthly fee.

You married? do you have children? only reason i ask is because i am & do. It isnt the time that makes me a solo player, it's adhereing to anothers schedule. I raided for 5 years in another game and nearly cost me my marriage, I know how much dedication it takes to maintain a raid spot. And being on time week after week, I also know that if you let another player slip into your spot it's often difficult to get back.

 

I can't play like that anymore not only that I dont want to and yes currently i am wasting my money on this game. But if Lotro, Dcuo, & GW2 can offer solo dungeons then why cant Swtor? Either way players like myself will be given the means to pursue character progression on our own time or we'll find something else to play & BW knows this.

 

Lesson Four

 

One thing that WoW is frequently recognized for is its solo play. Walton's fourth lesson was: support this, because gamers want it. According to Walton, older games that forced players into groups missed the point: "[the] truth is that people soloed every game to the best they could and when they couldn't anymore, they quit. Embracing solo play that was a true innovation for WoW."

 

It was pointed out that players who hit the level cap are pretty much forced to group in WOW; Walton still felt like the game "feels like it's a level playing field for all people at that level" and thus isn't quite as sinful as it could be. He offered a Blizzard quote on the solo issue -- "We look at soloing as our casual game." Given the weight of the phrase "casual game" in 2007, you can bet the audience was scribbling that one down.

Gordon Walton, the co-studio director at BioWare Austin Edited February 22, 2012 by NoxiousAlby

[Phydra]

Think I'll just repost my initial reply to this (as posted elsewhere) since it has not really changed...

 

You know, folks, this really doesn't have to be an "one or the other" equation.

 

It is entirely possible to have a track for solo players that nets "end game" gear and to have a track that nets grouping players "end game" gear. To pretend otherwise is to fall victim to the "perfectionist" and "slippery slope" fallacies of logic. (Ref links: http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/#Perfectionist and http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/#Slippery%20Slope, respectively).

 

As we all know, a mechanic in a game can be created and implemented in a way that rewards or punishes choice. In fact, the entirety of a MMO can be summed up as an elaborate "Skinner's Box" (ref link: http://www.simplypsychology.org/oper...ditioning.html) designed to reinforce the desire to endure infinite progression against an unwinnable goal (this is called the "Red Queen Dilemma"; ref link - http://www.idunn.no/ts/dk/2009/01/art02).

 

The question is not "can this be done?" as there is no question or doubt that it can be.

 

The question is "why shouldn't it be done?" and frankly, the reasons generally given are baseless in light of the reality that all any game company needs to do is create two "Skinner Boxes" and either (a) require you to choose between them, (b) allow you to choose one or the other with some penalty or constraint for switching (i.e., like a cost or a time delay/cool down, etc), or © to allow it if/as you like and see if it does, in fact, mean that MOST people really would solo if they had the chance/choice (which, frankly, means that the genre overall is missing out on a significant audience in their insistence that grouping MUST be the way of it).

 

It stands to reason that a game offering more choice would find more players willing to choose and willing to remain because additional choices are available (this is demonstrated in both Nick Yee's work as well as past research on game longevity and replayability; both of which decline when choices become exhausted OR are repetitive and thus, no longer attractive).

 

Taken logically, the only people who care or are concerned about solo players getting end game gear are those who know that large-scale raiding is (for many reasons) exclusionary in nature; be it for socio-cultural reasons, lifestyle reasons, or existing mechanical reasons in the game itself (usually a combination of these).

 

Game companies tend to care about this because they continue to labor under the (increasingly challenged) perception that end game raiding is a significant protection against monthly subscription erosion and player attrition. (Handily disproven by expansion returns as well as the point of diminishing return on expansions.... links, alas, are subscription based, but if you're an IGDA member, you know where to find them.)

 

Is solo flashpoint and raid content a "good idea"? Well duh... of course it is. As is any iteration of increasing player choices in relation to types of flashpoints, number of people required, whether or not to use companions, etc.

 

Can all the above overcome existing bias in relation to subscription erosion and popular perspective? Well, to date, obviously not.

 

Will BioWare be the company to break the mold and prove the point? I have no idea..... but it would be nice.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Phydra

[Ganrax]

You married? do you have children? only reason i ask is because i am & do. It isnt the time that makes me a solo player, it's adhereing to anothers schedule. I raided for 5 years in another game and nearly cost me my marriage, I know how much dedication it takes to maintain a raid spot. And being on time week after week, I also know that if you let another player slip into your spot it's often difficult to get back.

 

I don't think you understand what I am saying. The normal mode raids are a complete joke. Players were successfully pugging them within the first week of the game's launch when people started hitting 50. If you aren't on a completely dead server you can easily jump in a pug doing one(my server has groups constantly looking for pugs for normal and even hardmode operations) clear it in about an hour, possibly collect loot, and log off. That requires no adhering to anyone's schedule, no maintaining raid spots, no dedication at all. You simply send a tell, get in the raid, kill bosses, and collect loot. Hell, it only requires 8 people too so you could even start one yourself if you can't find a group since you'll only need to find 7 other people and they don't even need decent gear to complete it. On top of that since Bioware decided we weren't capable of handling our own loot in normal mode raids anyway, you don't even have to worry about handling loot, it will just be auto assigned to players. You couldn't ask for a more casual friendly raiding system.

 

Also, not trying to be rude, but if your wife/husband cannot handle you taking 2-3 hours a week to do something you enjoy doing then I think you have bigger problems to worry about than if you can have solo raids or not.

[Drukoziz]

"Maybe give us more control over their abilities in these instances so that Quinn, for example, knows to heal me up rather than heal up Broonmark. Or so that I can taunt a mob off of my main character with Broonmark, etc."

 

Whether or not the OPs full idea gets implemented, this part should anyway.

[Phydra]

You couldn't ask for a more casual friendly raiding system.

 

Well, obviously, you could and the reality that more players are is telling in its own right.

 

Personally (as an MMO vet going back to Meridian 59, a BBS player before that... TradeWars, L.O.R.D., The Pit, and backwards to *gulp* Text Adventure and then some), I do not buy into the notion that "this is the way it has always been" as some evidence that "this is the way it must continue to be". Frankly, if this was the mindset of game designers and publishers, we would never have moved very much beyond, oh, EverQuest.

 

This said, it is fairly obvious from any perspective that a 5-7 year development cycle that is burning throughout and requires a minimum budget of multi-millions just to hope to get to the gate (intermittent indie offerings such as "Tale in the Desert" etc aside) is not exactly a longevity model if you do not provide more flexibility in player choices.... including how to engage and experience ALL content.

 

There's a reason why a game like Lineage has been going nearly 20 years while the average growth (before plateau and decline) of most western MMOs is 5-10 years. Part of that reason is exactly what is beginning to bubble up in threads like this.

 

It used to be that 90% of the customer base in an MMO covered the OpEx of the developing company and 10% covered the CapEx (that is to say, 10% was the "hard core" player who played and paid no matter what, while 90% were moderate to casual players who payed, played less, and left quicker). Those numbers are now roughly 87% casual, 9% moderate, and 3% hardcore (ref: IGDA) and slowly trending lower across the board.

 

Why? Because even the hardcore players splinter easier, change games more quickly than they used to, and as a direct result of both "single pay" and "free to play" models, are themselves demanding "more choice", even as they continue to expect the same "end game experience" at large (big loot, time = status, etc).

 

Simply put - it's not a sustainable model and that 5-10 years is already pretty shaky for any but blockbuster (i.e., World of Warcraft) offerings that manage to both break new ground as well as offer more (and more varied) choices.

 

There are some pretty compelling reasons why a company like BioWare should strongly consider more solo content offerings; the entirety of the player preference debate aside, it is highly unlikely they can toss out expansions fast enough to keep the 3% happy, the moderates are now grumbling, and the casuals (while safe for another month or three) will quickly follow the same route when they level cap.

 

Legacy may offer something totally unseen in the genre (but, no offense, I doubt it), but there is not a lot more at the moment to truly distinguish or differentiate the game and the franchise following and interest will only go so far.

 

On a more pessimistic note, even if BioWare was on this idea like "white on rice", it will be months to potentially a year or more to have it come to fruition and my money says they've got 16 months, tops to either get more choices out the door or go the same, depressing consolidation and compression path that has become all too familiar... or go free to play with monetization (which, frankly, given the franchise and perspective of the following, probably will not net them as much as it has Turbine).

 

It's a pretty solid first release (even with the bugs and glitches); now it just needs some serious attention to providing genuine alternatives to the usual end-game loop OR I really cannot see it doing more than "the usual", particularly given that "the usual" is both well established and inevitable when one is using the same methods and mechanics.

 

Yeah... I know... real ray of sunshine, me.

[Catsfood]

/agree and sign

[ArtMonster]

....

No, I do not support this idea. If you want to do ops then join a decent guild and run them, there is no reason you should be able to get equivalent equipment from running a solo instance, that is not how endgame progression works.

 

not suggeting similar rewards.

 

no other game that has both solo and group versions has same loot in both instances, so I think you'll live.

 

relax...it'll be OK...you'll get your 'group' gear, and you can puff yer chest out at the solo players, you know... like the norm.

 

 

/

[cesmode]

I stopped reading after this. Normal Mode operations are made specifically for casuals that don't have the time or skill to do the "real" operations. They are mind numbingly easy and take AT MOST 2-3 hours total to clear them both(with an entire week to do this before it resets). If you can't play this game for 2-3 hours a week to do something you are interested in doing then I don't think you are playing the right genre of video games when you decided to start playing an MMO, you're essentially wasting your money on the monthly fee.

 

I'll respond to this one.

 

I stopped at "Normal Mode operations are made specifically for casuals that don't have the time or skill to do the "real" operations".

 

Buddy, listen... Like most of the "Raiders" in swtor, I have raided for 4-5+ years in WoW, even before the watered down junk of WOTLK and Cata. TBC was true raiding. Vanilla was true raiding. SWTOR raiding is laughable at best.

 

I tried raiding in SWTOR. With a maurader that I had just hit 50 about 2 weeks prior, with mostly Orange/Blue gear with an epic sprinkled in for good measure, I was asked into HM EV. Without watching any videos on the fight, or reading any strategy..OR MY GUILD EVEN EXLPAINING TO ME THE FIGHT, I made it through the first two bosses of HM EV without dying once (I then had to go because my daughter woke up).

 

For someone with no gear, no idea of the fights, I was able to see that I shouldnt stand in bad floor, that I should run away when targeted, group up when everyone else is, etc. So all of you so called "raiders" that tout the all mighty raiding torch as the end all/be all aspect of MMO, a non raider with no clue of the fights was able to breeze through the content as well as you seasoned vets, whom consider this the pinnacle of an MMO. As casual as I am, I progressed as quickly as you did. How does that make you feel now? How does having a casual in your ranks, make you feel?

 

With that said, it is not an attack at Biowares raiding design. There isnt much they can do in way of making things interesting and out of the mold of WoW raiding. Move out of this, avoid that, interrupt this, stack here, spread out here, kill adds, kite this, taunt after X stacks...its all been done before. So Ive seen it all before, and was able to parse out the bad stuff in a fight and stay alive.

 

..Real raiding.. haha. What is that?

 

I want solo raiding. I like doing my HMs with my guildees, PVP with guildees, grouping for heroic daillies...but I want to raid alone with the companions that Ive spent time, money, and commendations on gearing. Whats wrong with that?

[cesmode]

I stopped reading after this. Normal Mode operations are made specifically for casuals that don't have the time or skill to do the "real" operations. They are mind numbingly easy and take AT MOST 2-3 hours total to clear them both(with an entire week to do this before it resets). If you can't play this game for 2-3 hours a week to do something you are interested in doing then I don't think you are playing the right genre of video games when you decided to start playing an MMO, you're essentially wasting your money on the monthly fee.

 

OK, I read the rest of your concieted, uninformed, insulting response.

 

I have more than 2-3 hours a week to play. I dont have 2-3 hours in a single sitting/session/clip to play. I have a 9month old that requires attention, and I help out around the house. I am able to play 30-45 minutes..maybe an hour or at max 1.5 hours when the baby is awake. I can get what I want to get done in that time(dallies, a little leveling on alts, etc). Im sure I could get one or two bosses down in 1 hour in a solo raid...then log off.

 

Dont presume to tell me what I should and should not be playing or spending my money on.

 

Let me presume something...that youre either 19, going to community college, working at TGI Fridays and living at home with mommy and daddy thus not having any responsibility and so much time to play. Or a 35 year old investment banker, not married, no kids, that wants to break from reality for 5+ hours a night and has umpteenth hours to raid. My presumptions are wrong, and I am wrong for assuming...so are you.

[TheSwamper]

None of the pro-solo crowd are suggesting getting rid of raids. We just want an endgame alternative to raiding; make it have slower gear progress, MUCH slower is fine with me.

 

I don't care if the raiders always get their gear faster, heck, I support that idea just because of the pita of forming groups.

 

What I don't support is raiding and ONLY raiding being the endgame method of meaningful endgame progression. All MMOs do support soloing now, it's not an unreasonable request to ask that this support be continued through endgame.

[cesmode]

An example of loot tiers could be as follows:

Assuming, for sake of argument, strength is the primary stat...

 

(initial stat value is just an example and not accurate to ingame representations).

 

Level 50 green piece - 65 strength

Leve 50 blue piece - 71 strength

Level 50 Orage(modded to max) - 78 strength

HM Flashpoint / Solo Raid - 85 strength

Normal Raid - 91 Strength

HM Raid - 97.5 strength

Nightmare Raid - 104 strength

 

Do the math, each level up is roughly 10% increase in stats. I know there is columi, tionese, and Rakata. Im just giving an example where solo raid gear stats would be...roughly around HM flashpoint because it would be solo, but tuned for the difficulty of a raid for a solo person which realistically could be as difficult as a HM flashpoint with an OK geared group.

[Phydra]

An afterthought - adding in solo options for this kind of thing would benefit BioWare at expansion time as well; I'm sure many of you who raid have been annoyed, disgusted, or even upset at the notion of the first play area in a new expansion dropping greens that out-strip your hard-won "epics" by a country mile.

 

But, if you've given it any time or thought at all, you know this is done for three reasons:

 

1. To entice players to the new expansion

2. To gear up the undergeared players (i.e., these very same moderates and casuals) so they can play and survive in the new expansion because...

3. The only path OF expansion at the moment is (a) higher levels, (b) harder hitting monsters, and © monsters with more stats/hit points.

 

The introduction of a mechanic by which the folk in #2 above can effectively "skip" the previous release's raid content is already here in #1 and #3, and it's put there because of #2.

 

If these players had some means of gearing up before that new expansion not only does it offer the potential of gating those "everyone gets upgrades" first zones, it introduces the possibility of semi-linear content without the need for designing linear gates otherwise AND it gives that 87% (casual) and 3% (moderate) more reason to believe/feel that they're not chasing the "Red Queen" (i.e., infinite progression against an unwinnable goal) so frequently that cutting that subscription is a more attractive option.

 

Finally, it puts those moderates and casuals in a position of not only being able to more easily engage with progress back into the "hard core" position (something the genre has largely been missing since, oh, the mid-2000's), it essentially offers up an aspect of both longevity and replayability that has been waning as well.

 

Personally, this and the habit of introducing paired questing are my favorites. Using my consular as an example... I still think there's a lot of value (and mileage) to be had in getting some kind of "take a padawan" quests to return you to Tython as mentor to new/lower level players. This would be perfectly in alignment with not only the canon, but with the concept of what a Consular is all about.... and there are ways to parallel this concept for each class in the game.

 

Mind you, this is NOT "side kick" or shared-leveling thing, it is having quest lines that pit you individually against new threats of your level on the previous worlds, while your padawan goes against things they wouldn't see unless they were in this master/padawan relationship, and both players reaping some manner of status/reward (alternate means of social points; perhaps shared turn-ins where divergent quests come together for "the report to the council") as a result of being a loosely operating "team".) This nets BioWare better community (older players not only welcoming but competing for "padawans"), new and interesting quests for both old and new players, a path for players wanting to level up alts with friends of higher levels, and a new way for established players to entice their friends, family, etc into playing.

 

More solo options/choices to achieve gear on par with the "end game" and the preceding two paragraphs of idea are my two best recommendations for any MMO looking to break the 10 year barrier with a base that's within 25% of what they started with at release.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Phydra

[Cytheria]

/Signed

 

I like this idea.

 

At present if you're in a small guild, or prefer to play solo, you basically end up trying to gear up via pvp, or sign up for a couple of hours of "looking for pug" in the hopes that a) you can find one in the time you can actually stay online, and b) its good enough to actually land you anything anyway.

 

Some kind of small scale solo route would be really beneficial to players who simply cant spare the time, or don't have the bloated friends/guild lists that other players have, as it actually provides accessible content with achievable (but not unbalancing) rewards.

 

Personally speaking I see no reason to prevent a soloist collecting something on par with rakata gear, though it should be suitably difficult to attain. However even going as far as columi would open up the end game a great deal for those players.

[va_wanderer]

I'd like to see regular missions that do allow for more than one companion along, actually. In fact, I'd like to see them happen for class-specific stuff.

 

Being able to take Havoc Squad out (or at least me and three of the team) for a story area mission would be rather awesome. One companion would be your regular, the other two "guests" (IE, on their own AI)/pets.

 

These sort of missions should be regular-level rewards, nothing special other than being able to go out there and actually do things with your squad/troop/whatever. It'd encourage people to gear up the whole gang for just such occasions.

 

Edit note: Or if they're exceptional, have it be in the Presence category and companion-specific rewards. Honestly, you shouldn't be getting raid-type gear soloing. Or even near it. Exceptional content = exceptional gear related to it. If you're gonna get great stuff soloing with your companions, the rewards should be balanced towards better companions.

Edited February 22, 2012 by va_wanderer

[cesmode]

Bioware really needs to implement this. Judging from the response in this thread and other threads Ive read, it is widely popular.

[SnapWolf]

Peeps, dumbing down this game will only make this go the same way WoW went. Downhill.

[Treedodger]

Not to get too involved with the discussion but

 

 

Speaking as somebody that both loves raiding with friends and family as well as solo content.

 

The idea that (in addition to what exists now) I can run content with a 4-man group composed of just my character + 3 companions is AMAZING. Even if it has a "lesser" loot table. ... if I can run Ops with a 6 man group (my character + 5 companions) ... I can't even begin to describe the awesome.

 

/love

Edited February 22, 2012 by Treedodger

[cesmode]

Peeps, dumbing down this game will only make this go the same way WoW went. Downhill.

 

WoW went downhill because it made everything purchasable via tokens and things like that. They further watered it down when they decide to nerf a new raid after 1.5 months of being released giving a +damage,heal,stam buff. They further dummy it down by providing LFR. They took attunements out of the game. They strayed away from world bosses. WoW was great until they did all of this. Not to mention, trying to balance PVP and PVE which just doesn't ever work.

 

SWTOR started off with all of this stuff. No sense in complaining about that. I think there are way too many commendations and sources to purchase gear. I don't think Bioware will change that, so there's no point in trying to discuss that. Since the content is already watered down from launch(albeit very nice content..good job Bio-ware! =) ), why not throw more content in there to cater to more masses the way Blizzard has so this game goes from 1.5-2mil subs, to 3 or maybe 4million subs. If people see this type of content/feature in the game, they'll tell their friends and guess what...we'll have a better, more popular and thriving game on our hands. It can only help the game and it is in Bio ware's best interests to pursue this. Bio-ware studio director Walton even said himself that Blizzard was genius in doing this.

 

I would have welcomed a solo raid/solo instance/scenario in WoW when I was playing, even though I was a hardcore 5 day a week raider. It would have watered down the content, but I would have loved doing solo stuff in my off time. Hypocritical, I know. But it is what it is

[Treedodger]

Good ideas here.

 

Sometimes folks just want to "see" the content - once or twice at most - and are less interested in the gear. Why not also cater to them and give us "Me + Companions Solo Mode?" ... if it's about the story, then let me see the story.

 

Then, when they get the "gear bug," they can do the content again the "regular way" and explore another aspect of the game.

 

Cannot say it enough /love this idea

[DarkhawkXY]

As someone else said, they did try this in Rift.. it was set up so you could 'see' a smaller version of the raids without the real bosses and with no gear worth noting. So after you did it once it was pointless, just as it would be in SWTOR. The main difference is in SWTOR you can finish a raid in about an hour and you don't need to be a hardcore member to raid with the diff. settings. I don't like games changing raids to accomodate the solo MMO crowd, it just doesn't make sense.

 

There are many other things they could add for 'solo' or off-time content.. such as Pod races, Pazaak and a more interesting space fighting system (PVP space combat/quest lines that involve a mix of space fighting and normal content). If I could play an updated X-wing vs. Tie Fighter while waiting for my friends to log on (or with them after they do) i'd be happy. As it is I still do the space missions daily on my alts and enjoy them.

 

Edited: came across sounding angier then I meant.

Edited February 22, 2012 by DarkhawkXY

[cesmode]

...recalling the scene in Empire Strikes Back where Luke is dangling from the Cloud City...

 

/me uses the force

"Bioware... Hear me..."

[Vincire]

...recalling the scene in Empire Strikes Back where Luke is dangling from the Cloud City...

 

/me uses the force

"Bioware... Hear me..."

 

..kind of how I feel about my subscription.

[Vincire]

Peeps, dumbing down this game will only make this go the same way WoW went. Downhill.

 

Adding options for different playstyles is hardly "dumbing down" the game.

[jubbs]

Sounds like an awesome idea. Think a cool idea for loot would be to just drop oranges, with no mods, that look different from gear that is already available, like a new style of robe for inquisitors and consular or some armor for the bounty hunters and troopers. Just my two cents Edited February 23, 2012 by jubbs