Allow master looter in normal mode

[Dearl]

Master looter being broken doesn't make this system better. It sucks. Either fix ML or make it a need/greed/pass system please. The community will handle ninja looters.

 

I once said I'd pay to get into beta. Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it

[livnthedream]

We should create a petition to have this loot system revised immediately. It is a horrible system that kills the incentive of raiding guilds and progressive guilds.

 

bs. any even half decent raiding guild stopped running normal modes after the first 2 weeks for any serious gear. its far too easy to not only outgear them but there is 0 challenge. even now we only go to run through the "casuals", get alloys, or recruiting. also, im kinda curious what your definition of "progressive" guild is.

[vandana_]

/bump

[Loupe]

I find it interesting the powers that be are fast to comment and lock threads which are redundant, but do not make any comment to the subject in the thread they redirect users to.

 

Oh as to the point of master looter.. Try this, stop making things bind on aquire so they can be sold or traded.

 

There is no doubt that the currant systems are unacceptable.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Loupe

[CogitoErgo]

I find it interesting the powers that be are fast to comment and lock threads which are redundant, but do not make any comment to the subject in the thread they redirect users to.

 

Oh as to the point of master looter.. Try this, stop making things bind on aquire so they can be sold or traded.

 

There is no doubt that the currant systems are unacceptable.

 

Forum mods here don't post nearly enough. Of course the CS team is also extremely lacking. Seems they need to hire a herd of new people to handle this stuff.

 

Back on topic, something has to change here. Normal mode ops groups shouldn't be stuck with a terrible system based purely on the fact that they are running normal mode. Options are always a good thing and better than no options. If the current loot system was one choice out of several (including a functioning ML option) I'd have no problem with it, but being forced to use it is not good.

 

I'd also wager that the current loot system would be the least used if it were 1 option of several.

[Mavery]

While I'm not the biggest fan of the normal mode loot system, but it IS meant to be pugged. Guild groups should be spending -at most- 1 week on normal mode. Clear it once (which should take you two days tops for both spaces) and move on to hard modes (where you can control the loot).

 

For any serious group this shouldn't be a hurdle. Seems to me people are arguing out of principle than anything else. There really shouldn't be this level of complaining for something that any decent group spends less than a week on.

 

Now look at the positives. Ninja looters are rampant in MMOs. I'm always leader in my groups, so I can't comment on their existence in TOR. Given that normal mode is meant to be pugged -- normal modes are not guild domains, but pure pugs -- this prevents any sort of juvenile problems that have become all too common.

 

So it's like this: guilds do normal mode once and then never again, so unless you're arguing out of principle this does not effect you; and the vast majority of normal mode groups are PUGs, where you don't know most of the group, and any potential loot drama is squashed.

 

It's not as bad as you people are making it out to be.

[Rashne]

There should be at least an option to pass. We have been running normal ops to gear up some of our new 50s and its ridiculous that I can't pass on the 5th set of Columi gloves to the new sages.

[Evel]

If they are hellbent on keeping this horrible implentation of a system in place they should at least allow the loot to be traded for x-minutes or while still in the Operation. I got plenty of Assassin DPS pieces last night an actual Assassin DPS could have used (I'm a tank).

[Kingodin]

keep fighting the good fight gentleman.... This is such an annoyance for my guild. I dont need to win healing gear!!!!! over our BH healer.

[CogitoErgo]

While I'm not the biggest fan of the normal mode loot system, but it IS meant to be pugged. Guild groups should be spending -at most- 1 week on normal mode. Clear it once (which should take you two days tops for both spaces) and move on to hard modes (where you can control the loot).

 

For any serious group this shouldn't be a hurdle. Seems to me people are arguing out of principle than anything else. There really shouldn't be this level of complaining for something that any decent group spends less than a week on.

 

Now look at the positives. Ninja looters are rampant in MMOs. I'm always leader in my groups, so I can't comment on their existence in TOR. Given that normal mode is meant to be pugged -- normal modes are not guild domains, but pure pugs -- this prevents any sort of juvenile problems that have become all too common.

 

So it's like this: guilds do normal mode once and then never again, so unless you're arguing out of principle this does not effect you; and the vast majority of normal mode groups are PUGs, where you don't know most of the group, and any potential loot drama is squashed.

 

It's not as bad as you people are making it out to be.

 

And for people who don't run hardmodes, but want to have some control over their loot distribution rather than leave it to blind chance? What should they do? Just take it? Just deal with an awful loot system that has now given me the same pair of Columi boots every run over people wearing level 50 oranges and who could use them?

 

If you're telling people who run only normals they should just put up with a broken system then you are wrong.

[Mavery]

And for people who don't run hardmodes, but want to have some control over their loot distribution rather than leave it to blind chance? What should they do? Just take it? Just deal with an awful loot system that has now given me the same pair of Columi boots every run over people wearing level 50 oranges and who could use them?

 

If you're telling people who run only normals they should just put up with a broken system then you are wrong.

 

Why wouldn't you run hard modes, is what I would ask? When your group clears normal (which, again, shouldn't take more than one raid week) you move on to the next difficulty level.

 

When you try to rationalize the decision making process of Bioware, it becomes obvious that they don't intend for guilds to remain in normal. Guild groups are suppose to proceed to hard and nightmare once they clear normal.

 

So again: why would anyone stay in normals once they clear it? Why would you not move on to hard and nightmare?

[CogitoErgo]

Why wouldn't you run hard modes, is what I would ask? When your group clears normal (which, again, shouldn't take more than one raid week) you move on to the next difficulty level.

 

When you try to rationalize the decision making process of Bioware, it becomes obvious that they don't intend for guilds to remain in normal. Guild groups are suppose to proceed to hard and nightmare once they clear normal.

 

So again: why would anyone stay in normals once they clear it? Why would you not move on to hard and nightmare?

 

You didn't answer the question, but dodged it instead. Answer the question.

 

What do groups who don't do hardmodes do about a broken loot system?

[Mavery]

You didn't answer the question, but dodged it instead. Answer the question.

 

What do groups who don't do hardmodes do about a broken loot system?

 

I did answer the question. You just, for whatever reason, do not like the answer.

 

Let me put it very clearly: any group (not PUGs) worth their salt do not spend more than one week on normal modes. Therefore, this, as you put it, "broken loot system", isn't a problem and posters like you are arguing out of principle.

 

If you choose to stay in normal mode, I guess you have to deal with the RNG. But why would you when your group is more than capable of doing hard?

 

Normal mode is meant to be pugged. That is the entire reason it exists. The system -- which again, I do not like either -- was put in to prevent ninja looting. Is there confirmation from Bioware on this? No, but it's easy to figure out. As is this: they want organized groups to do hard mode.

 

Why don't you just do hard and this problem goes away?

[CogitoErgo]

For the 7th time now, "Go do hard mode" is not an acceptable solution to the problem. Because then the broken loot system is still in place for normal modes. I am in a small guild of 3 people. We pug people each week for normal modes. Unless we get a core group of pugs that comes each week we aren't going to do hardmodes, so saying "Go do hardmodes" isn't an answer.

 

So should we be forced week after week to suffer with an RNG based, awful loot system? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

 

Last night we pugged 5 people for EV. Soa dropped the MH tanking saber and the MH dps saber. The tanking saber went to the DPS juggernaut and the DPS saber went to the tanking juggernaut. That is ridiculous.

 

Normal modes should not be forced to put up with this system based purely on the fact that they are running normal mode regardless of whether it is intended for pugs or not. It's still a raid.

[Mavery]

For the 7th time now, "Go do hard mode" is not an acceptable solution to the problem. Because then the broken loot system is still in place for normal modes. I am in a small guild of 3 people. We pug people each week for normal modes. Unless we get a core group of pugs that comes each week we aren't going to do hardmodes, so saying "Go do hardmodes" isn't an answer.

 

So should we be forced week after week to suffer with an RNG based, awful loot system? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

 

Last night we pugged 5 people for EV. Soa dropped the MH tanking saber and the MH dps saber. The tanking saber went to the DPS juggernaut and the DPS saber went to the tanking juggernaut. That is ridiculous.

 

Normal modes should not be forced to put up with this system based purely on the fact that they are running normal mode regardless of whether it is intended for pugs or not. It's still a raid.

 

It's a raid but a raid that is meant to be pugged. Have you seen the loot drama from WoW's LFR? Same principle: meant to be pugged by just about everyone. What happens there? Everyone needs on everything possible, regardless if they need it or not. Bioware is obviously looking at that and a plethora of other examples when devising their loot.

 

We can say "well Bioware should give me the option to turn it off and throw on ML." Well how does Bioware know that you won't turn it on just before boss dies, ninja everything, and say "screw you" to the 5 PUGs?

 

Look, I agree with you that the loot system shouldn't be there. But at the same time, I understand why Bioware chose this method on PUG OPs content. Ninja looters are rampant, and they'd rather players complain about RNG than have CS inundated with "X ninja'd Y."

 

In your particular case, why do you even care about loot? The whole point to OP loot is to prepare you for harder content. Which, by your own admission, you won't be doing anytime soon.

 

If you did care about loot, you would want to progress. Thus you'd find a guild to ally with or secure those core PUGs. When my guild started doing OPs, I pugged 4 spots for hard mode OPs. Yup, they fell over.

 

What's stopping you from doing the same?

Edited February 22, 2012 by Mavery

[CogitoErgo]

It's a raid but a raid that is meant to be pugged. Have you seen the loot drama from WoW's LFR? Same principle: meant to be pugged by just about everyone. What happens there? Everyone needs on everything possible, regardless if they need it or not. Bioware is obviously looking at that and a plethora of other examples when devising their loot.

 

We can say "well Bioware should give me the option to turn it off and throw on ML." Well how does Bioware know that you won't turn it on just before boss dies, ninja everything, and say "screw you" to the 5 PUGs?

 

Look, I agree with you that the loot system shouldn't be there. But at the same time, I understand why Bioware chose this method on PUG OPs content. Ninja looters are rampant, and they'd rather players complain about RNG than have CS inundated with "X ninja'd Y."

 

In your particular case, why do you even care about loot? The whole point to OP loot is to prepare you for harder content. Which, by your own admission, you won't be doing anytime soon.

 

If you did care about loot, you would want to progress. Thus you'd find a guild to ally with or secure those core PUGs. When my guild started doing OPs, I pugged 4 spots for hard mode OPs. Yup, they fell over.

 

What's stopping you from doing the same?

 

I haven't seen LFR. Quit WoW before it came out. But pugging raids on server is not the same as cross-server LFR tool. If I ninja all the gear people stop running with me. We need to shift back to 'server rep' mode even though most of us just came from a game where server rep no longer mattered. It's the same as the way it used to work in WoW. If you led a raid and ninjaed all the gear people spammed trade chat and you ended up on ignore lists. It works here because we don't have cross-server nonsense in this game.

 

So if I can pug HM ops then why don't they use the same system there. I mean you said I could PUG it, so if HMs are puggable then shouldn't they use the same loot system? Hell let's implement it for NM modes too. If normal and HMs are destiny loot then NM should be too.

 

I care about loot for the same reason other people care about loot. It's a reward for completing content and it improves my character. If the raid tier system works the same here as it does in WoW, that normal mode loot will be preparation for T2 normal modes.

 

I don't wanna do hardmodes cause I don't see the point. I go into normal I see the content, kill the bosses, get some loot and wait for the next raiding tier to come out. Meanwhile I can be catching up on console games, doing other RL stuff, etc. Hard modes don't make sense to me, why go kill hardmode Soa when he is already dead?

[DarthBloodloss]

The auto-assigned loot is bonus loot. Its an independent chance for you to get loot without having to roll for it. The raid group gets the normal loot that the boss drops, and then you get your own personal roll to see if you get something good for yourself.

 

Instead of having 1 more item drop that can only be used by 1 class, they give everyone a chance to loot their own class specific gear. It should help gear people faster because you always get a piece you can wear instead of watching as a piece for another class drops.

[Mavery]

I haven't seen LFR. Quit WoW before it came out. But pugging raids on server is not the same as cross-server LFR tool. If I ninja all the gear people stop running with me. We need to shift back to 'server rep' mode even though most of us just came from a game where server rep no longer mattered. It's the same as the way it used to work in WoW. If you led a raid and ninjaed all the gear people spammed trade chat and you ended up on ignore lists. It works here because we don't have cross-server nonsense in this game.

 

So if I can pug HM ops then why don't they use the same system there. I mean you said I could PUG it, so if HMs are puggable then shouldn't they use the same loot system? Hell let's implement it for NM modes too. If normal and HMs are destiny loot then NM should be too.

 

I care about loot for the same reason other people care about loot. It's a reward for completing content and it improves my character. If the raid tier system works the same here as it does in WoW, that normal mode loot will be preparation for T2 normal modes.

 

I don't wanna do hardmodes cause I don't see the point. I go into normal I see the content, kill the bosses, get some loot and wait for the next raiding tier to come out. Meanwhile I can be catching up on console games, doing other RL stuff, etc. Hard modes don't make sense to me, why go kill hardmode Soa when he is already dead?

 

I've played other games where there was no cross-server queuing. Yup, people still ninja'd regularly. Sometimes people pay heed, other times they don't. I don't blame Bioware for negating this completely.

 

The difference between pugging normal and hard OPs is not everyone is expected to do the latter. You won't get the same sort of people in the latter. It's a different dynamic that doesn't present the same difficulties. In particular, there is a certain level of investment in HM/NM pugs that doesn't exist in normal. Normal is in and out we're done because of how easy it is.

 

People care about loot so that they can advance to the next challenge. You do not care about the next challenge.

 

The whole point of raiding is not loot acquisition. It's widely believed that it is, I know, but that doesn't make it right. People raid to problem solve, to face difficult challenges. That's the point to hard mode.

[Thoffs]

We the community did decide this once already. The only people I see clamoring for a change are people QQing and whiners. Hard Mode OPS are runnable with lvl 50 gear and a handfull of columi pcs. My Guild ran normals only once to learn the mechanics and we immediately went to HMs and they aren't much harder. Hoenstly NM OPs are one long lootship run so pardon me if I can get all worked up about it.

 

For the people who want master looter goes READ THE FORUMS ITS BUGGED

 

The 'community' that decided this was pre-release and had no chance of using this system before it was implemented. Clearly, there are many in the CURRENT community that are now using this loot mode and do not like this being the only looting option. And you know, I have heard that changes are actually sometimes made to games after release!!!

 

Great for you that your guild only ran normal mode once and are now on HMs. Congratulations! Adding another looting option to normal mode ops would not affect you, cool.

 

Instead of telling other players how to play the game (I.e, 'do normal mode ops only once then do HMs), please defend this looting option on its own merits.

 

The only argument for it is that it protects PUGs against ninjas. Fine, I agree with that, it is needed for PUGs, but works against guild groups. The problem is that it is the ONLY option available. Adding another loot option that is only enabled if everybody agrees to it does not hurt PUGs, and benefits those groups that don't want auto-assigned loot. This is a no-brainer to add -- it protects PUGs, gives options to other groups. If they did this, these threads would disappear.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Thoffs
Typos.

[CogitoErgo]

The difference between pugging normal and hard OPs is not everyone is expected to do the latter. You won't get the same sort of people in the latter. It's a different dynamic that doesn't present the same difficulties. In particular, there is a certain level of investment in HM/NM pugs that doesn't exist in normal. Normal is in and out we're done because of how easy it is.

 

People care about loot so that they can advance to the next challenge. You do not care about the next challenge.

 

The whole point of raiding is not loot acquisition. It's widely believed that it is, I know, but that doesn't make it right. People raid to problem solve, to face difficult challenges. That's the point to hard mode.

 

But it's still a PUG. You said yourself this loot system is designed to protect PUGs from ninjas. So we'll just put destiny loot in HM/NM modes too. What's that? You don't want this loot system in HMs/NMs? Why not? If it's so good for normal mode PUGs why isn't it appropriate for HM PUGs?

 

The next challenge for me is T2 normal mode raids. I definitely do care about the next challenge, buy my next challenge and your next challenge are different things.

 

But I can problem solve and face challenges in normal mode, finish it up a few times and move on to something else. Hardmodes don't do anything for me. If you enjoy them that's fantastic and I'm happy for you and others who like hardmodes. I don't like them cause I don't see a point in them FOR ME. So again, saying 'go do hardmodes' isn't a solution to this problem FOR ME.

[Thoffs]

 

The difference between pugging normal and hard OPs is not everyone is expected to do the latter. You won't get the same sort of people in the latter. It's a different dynamic that doesn't present the same difficulties. In particular, there is a certain level of investment in HM/NM pugs that doesn't exist in normal. Normal is in and out we're done because of how easy it is.

 

 

 

Do you honestly believe that if somebody would ninja in a PUG normal op (but cannot because the auto-assign loot prevents it), that they magically would not ninja in a PUG hard mode op? Ninjas like loot -- once they get all the loot they can from normal mode, they will move on to HM ops. Once a ninja, always a ninja. If you have a PUG (regardless of difficulty) you have the possibility of a random ninja.

 

Assume that metrics showed that over time, there were a lot of PUG groups doing hard mode ops (according to many posters here, HM ops are really easy, right?). Then one day, Bioware decides, "Hey, we really love auto-assign loot in normal mode for PUGs, and we see a lot of PUGs doing HM ops, so now we are going to make hard mode have auto-assigned loot as the only looting option".

 

How much complaining would you then see on the forums? Would your advice to those players then be "Eh, HM ops are actually easy, just move to nightmare mode ops if you want more looting options." ???

 

That fact is that having auto-assigned loot as the ONLY option is a bad idea. Just give players who enjoy normal mode ops more options -- do not remove auto-assignment, just give groups who want to use a different option some choice. That would be the truly democratic, 'community-driven' answer -- players would use the looting option they desire.

 

Edit: I see that CognitoErgo beat me to it about ninjas being present in HM ops also

Edited February 22, 2012 by Thoffs

[Mavery]

But it's still a PUG. You said yourself this loot system is designed to protect PUGs from ninjas. So we'll just put destiny loot in HM/NM modes too. What's that? You don't want this loot system in HMs/NMs? Why not? If it's so good for normal mode PUGs why isn't it appropriate for HM PUGs?

 

I would still maintain it's a different sort of player. If everyone and their brother were pugging HM OPs, it's a different story.

 

I will say it again for emphasis: I do not like the auto-assign loot system. But when Bioware realizes that something is pugged by darn near everyone, necessary protections had to come into play. But in HM OPs? Typically they are guild runs + some people outside of it. The likelihood of ninjaing goes down significantly, and so does the need for protection.

 

The next challenge for me is T2 normal mode raids. I definitely do care about the next challenge, buy my next challenge and your next challenge are different things.

 

Unless Bioware demonstrates otherwise, normal mode is not a challenge. Not for you, not for me.

 

But I can problem solve and face challenges in normal mode, finish it up a few times and move on to something else. Hardmodes don't do anything for me. If you enjoy them that's fantastic and I'm happy for you and others who like hardmodes. I don't like them cause I don't see a point in them FOR ME. So again, saying 'go do hardmodes' isn't a solution to this problem FOR ME.

 

Puzzle bosses put aside, there is nothing to problem solve. It's zerg-faceroll until it's dead.

[Mavery]

Do you honestly believe that if somebody would ninja in a PUG normal op (but cannot because the auto-assign loot prevents it), that they magically would not ninja in a PUG hard mode op? Ninjas like loot -- once they get all the loot they can from normal mode, they will move on to HM ops. Once a ninja, always a ninja. If you have a PUG (regardless of difficulty) you have the possibility of a random ninja.

 

As I said above, different story of players participate and lead HM OPs. I will acknowledge that ninja's can make their way into these groups, but they are considerably less common. Protection is not required.

 

Assume that metrics showed that over time, there were a lot of PUG groups doing hard mode ops (according to many posters here, HM ops are really easy, right?). Then one day, Bioware decides, "Hey, we really love auto-assign loot in normal mode for PUGs, and we see a lot of PUGs doing HM ops, so now we are going to make hard mode have auto-assigned loot as the only looting option".

 

How much complaining would you then see on the forums? Would your advice to those players then be "Eh, HM ops are actually easy, just move to nightmare mode ops if you want more looting options." ???

 

That would be the advice. If 8 strangers could easily handle hard mode OPs, there's no reason why guilds wouldn't do strictly NM.

 

That fact is that having auto-assigned loot as the ONLY option is a bad idea. Just give players who enjoy normal mode ops more options -- do not remove auto-assignment, just give groups who want to use a different option some choice. That would be the truly democratic, 'community-driven' answer -- players would use the looting option they desire.

 

Edit: I see that CognitoErgo beat me to it about ninjas being present in HM ops also

 

Bioware has two options: be inundated with complaints about RNG or loot ninja's. They gotta choose one or the other.

[CogitoErgo]

I would still maintain it's a different sort of player. If everyone and their brother were pugging HM OPs, it's a different story.

 

I will say it again for emphasis: I do not like the auto-assign loot system. But when Bioware realizes that something is pugged by darn near everyone, necessary protections had to come into play. But in HM OPs? Typically they are guild runs + some people outside of it. The likelihood of ninjaing goes down significantly, and so does the need for protection.

 

 

 

Unless Bioware demonstrates otherwise, normal mode is not a challenge. Not for you, not for me.

 

 

 

Puzzle bosses put aside, there is nothing to problem solve. It's zerg-faceroll until it's dead.

 

Those are still PUGs and they require protection! People might ninja the loot so we better lock it down so no one can get anything in a reasonable fashion or else something might be ninjaed. Guild groups + some PUGs and the risk for ninjaing goes down? You must never have been the PUG in a guild group who gets given nothing simply because you're the PUG guy. So the solution to this is if a single player is PUGed then destiny loot rules are in place with no options and if it's an all guild group then you can use master looter? That sounds like a lot more people are gonna be on the forums complaining.

 

You don't like the loot system, but here you are defending it in the face of all of the facts and reason.

 

My next challenge and whether or not the ops are difficult (challenging) are two different definitions of the word challenge. I used the former and you used the latter. My next challenge (task to be completed) is T2 normal raids, whether or not those will be difficult is immaterial to this discussion.

[Thoffs]

 

That would be the advice. If 8 strangers could easily handle hard mode OPs, there's no reason why guilds wouldn't do strictly NM.

 

So you would be ok then with auto-assigned loot being the only option for Hard Mode ops, interesting. I am betting that is a minority view.

 

Your statement that protection is not required for hard-mode PUG ops is...uh...inconsistent. The same players doing the PUG normal mode ops are now the ones doing the hard-mode PUG ops.

 

Bioware has two options: be inundated with complaints about RNG or loot ninja's. They gotta choose one or the other.

 

 

Haha. Ok, I am dumb. Please explain to me in simple words what is wrong with either of the following two options for normal mode ops:

 

a. If anybody in a group objects to a loot option other than auto-assigned loot, then the loot option is set to auto-assigned loot. Else, the loot option is set to whatever the leader sets (ie. ML, need/greed, etc). Groups that don't want auto-assigned loot get the option they want, and groups that prefer auto-assigned loot get auto-assigned loot.

 

b. Another solution, let somebody have a 2 hour window to pass loot to somebody else (as suggested in many other threads). This way, duplicate loot has a chance to be passed on to other players. It is my understanding (and I could be wrong) that DDO works this way.

 

Where do complains about loot ninjas or RNG come from either of these two options? I am curious.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Thoffs