Sparklehorse Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 No. No. Again...no. The trinity system is a lot like democracy. Is it the best system available? Maybe not but it beats the Hell out of all the other choices. Ever played a group game that doesn't use it? It's just a bunch of dps unloading on everything as hard as they can and that's the extent of it. It's not fun. It's not engaging. It's not challenging. I find it puzzling that this is one of the features GW2 fans are touting as "revolutionary" or "breakthrough" when it has been done before in other games and it totally sucked. It's not original to GW2 and once those that seem to think that this idea is fresh and new get a taste of it, we will hear them whistling a very different tune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megaphys Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 while that does sound nice on paper I don't know if it would work out that well in game well first problem is, people are trained in trinity thinking, it will take a learning curve for people to adapt to anything new. Also people tend to follow other peoples formulas, so if one group beats something a certain way, people may assume thats the way it has to be done. Whoever goes for making a non trinity game is going to need an excellent execution, and a lot of guts, because for a time, people will rebel, and try to fit a square peg in a round hole. anyhow for this game, it is not feasible unless they went all the way back to the drawing board on current classes/trees/content. Fact is a sage cannot survive the attention of a hard mode boss no matter how many tricks he pulls out of his butt. A number of classes/trees have no way to mitigate dmg or support the party at all. In this game it would take either a reboot or a long and slow evolution and game rebalance to change the trinity, better they focus on making it a more entertaining trinity experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccoolmint Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 well first problem is, people are trained in trinity thinking, it will take a learning curve for people to adapt to anything new. Also people tend to follow other peoples formulas, so if one group beats something a certain way, people may assume thats the way it has to be done. Whoever goes for making a non trinity game is going to need an excellent execution, and a lot of guts, because for a time, people will rebel, and try to fit a square peg in a round hole. anyhow for this game, it is not feasible unless they went all the way back to the drawing board on current classes/trees/content. Fact is a sage cannot survive the attention of a hard mode boss no matter how many tricks he pulls out of his butt. A number of classes/trees have no way to mitigate dmg or support the party at all. In this game it would take either a reboot or a long and slow evolution and game rebalance to change the trinity, better they focus on making it a more entertaining trinity experience. what i'm afraid of is that it will turn into a dps fest with no strategy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparklehorse Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) what i'm afraid of is that it will turn into a dps fest with no strategy That is pretty much ALL it can devolve into. Your instinct is exactly correct here. You have 2 viable strategies for defeating bosses in non trinity games. 1. Dps the boss as fast as you can before it kills everybody in the group. 2. Dps the boss as fast as you can before it kills everybody in the group. Edited February 20, 2012 by Sparklehorse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewser Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 what i'm afraid of is that it will turn into a dps fest with no strategy It will or it will turn into people being assigned roles that we have with the trinity.. "Hey Cool, we need you to heal during this fight" "Hey Drewser, you need to tank the adds that spawn at 80%" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amiracle Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 ok, while i neither hate nor love the trinity it has real problems, and it has been done many times, im up for something more interesting. Still i know this whole entire game and class structure has been developed with the trinity in mind, you cannot remove it. I think the people who think you must have a trinity, or that without a trinity it becomes a burn down for everything arent really understanding things. Not having a the trinity simply means you dont have the same static i can only do 1 thing with each class type thing. A battle can still break down into taking damage dealing damage and support, but a class does not have to be only one thing. that would be the breaking of the trinity. it doesnt mean there will be no strategy, but rather decentralizing one role in battle toward the whole group. bouncing hate, managing group buffs, changing focuses during combat, sounds very strategic, and interesting. Nice idea, when playing with friends and guildies. In a pug enviroment.....not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megaphys Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 No. No. Again...no. The trinity system is a lot like democracy. Is it the best system available? Maybe not but it beats the Hell out of all the other choices. Ever played a group game that doesn't use it? It's just a bunch of dps unloading on everything as hard as they can and that's the extent of it. It's not fun. It's not engaging. It's not challenging. I find it puzzling that this is one of the features GW2 fans are touting as "revolutionary" or "breakthrough" when it has been done before in other games and it totally sucked. It's not original to GW2 and once those that seem to think that this idea is fresh and new get a taste of it, we will hear them whistling a very different tune. once again, that is only one execution of a non trinity game. heres what the trinity is 3 rigid roles required for any content tank dps healer also at least 3 classes/specs primarily focus on this. just because you arent doing that doesnt mean its all blind dps. the monster is focusing on you? you better become defensive or evasive or you die. the monster is focusing on your party member? maybe you should support them, or distract the enemy. Everybody surviving well? maybe you should focus on killing it. It doesnt have to be specifically seperated into 3 different people. each person can make meaningful combat changes that arent just dps. and it definately doesnt have to be tied to one class. The point is, if you got 4 warriors, you dont just dps down the boss, you still have to defend and support one another, maybe one of them uses a shield to reduce damage, another uses a hammer for interupts and debuffs, another uses swords which dot the boss, and control his movement so people can run when their hp is low. and the last warrior focus on doing some dps, while at the same time giving people buffs that block dmg, increase max hp, or etc. All of the warriors could do anyone of those roles, but if they try to just straight dps it, if the encounters are designed properly, they will fail. big difference? you dont sit around for an hour waiting for a healer class or a tank class. you come up with a plan, and change your skill loadout to work with that plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formulaic Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 That is pretty much ALL it can devolve into. Your instinct is exactly correct here. You have 2 viable strategies for defeating bosses in non trinity games. 1. Dps the boss as fast as you can before it kills everybody in the group. 2. Dps the boss as fast as you can before it kills everybody in the group. - rotate aggro between players. - kiting. - use x/y/z to your advantage. [etc] I think the problem may be that the trinity has 1 viable tactic (tank gets hit by it, dps hits it, healer heals tank). And we might actually have to come up with new roles and new tactics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megaphys Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Nice idea, when playing with friends and guildies. In a pug enviroment.....not so much. well like i said its going to be a new learning curve, skills and strategy are going to probably decide your success more than gear scores. For pugs it will probably be hard, until people learn how not to suck badly. But all content doesnt have to be made to require that intense level, and a lot of it probably wont. Just like in wow you dont need a whole trinity to level to cap, or in this game you can do two man heroics with almost any 2 people. for the hard stuff though, people are going to have to communicate and learn to play well and with others, but isnt that the point of the harder stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megaphys Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) That is pretty much ALL it can devolve into. Your instinct is exactly correct here. You have 2 viable strategies for defeating bosses in non trinity games. 1. Dps the boss as fast as you can before it kills everybody in the group. 2. Dps the boss as fast as you can before it kills everybody in the group. or, one guy stuns the boss when his friend gets low hp, another guy severs its leg tendons slowing movement speed, another guy uses a shout that increases all healing of everyone in the area and throws a heal, while the low hp guy runs and does his own heal. The guy who severed the artery takes over hate for awhile, and the guy who just healed up focuses on doing consistent damage. If the game is designed to be dps before kills everyone in group thats all it will be. If the game is designed so that doesnt work, then thats not all it will be. Edited February 20, 2012 by Megaphys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amiracle Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 well like i said its going to be a new learning curve, skills and strategy are going to probably decide your success more than gear scores. For pugs it will probably be hard, until people learn how not to suck badly. But all content doesnt have to be made to require that intense level, and a lot of it probably wont. Just like in wow you dont need a whole trinity to level to cap, or in this game you can do two man heroics with almost any 2 people. for the hard stuff though, people are going to have to communicate and learn to play well and with others, but isnt that the point of the harder stuff? I'm just being realistic. The new MMO player doesn't want challenge. One question...if a single player can heal, tank, and dps.... Whats the difference if it was 3 different people each ont with a specific task? I am curious how GW2 is doing it. Do the players decide before the fight who is taking on what roles based on how they are geared? Do roles change mid fight and if so how does each player know what role to take at that moment? All these questions seems to need alot of coordination on the fly and in a pug how will that happen? Would the servers all have to be segregated based on language sopeople can talk? I say talk because I could not imagine people typing on the fly....not me anyways. Questions, questions, questions............I guess we will see how GW2 is doing it soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewser Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I'm just being realistic. The new MMO player doesn't want challenge. One question...if a single player can heal, tank, and dps.... Whats the difference if it was 3 different people each ont with a specific task? I am curious how GW2 is doing it. Do the players decide before the fight who is taking on what roles based on how they are geared? Do roles change mid fight and if so how does each player know what role to take at that moment? All these questions seems to need alot of coordination on the fly and in a pug how will that happen? Would the servers all have to be segregated based on language sopeople can talk? I say talk because I could not imagine people typing on the fly....not me anyways. Questions, questions, questions............I guess we will see how GW2 is doing it soon. My guess it will end up like CoH, where you would just group up then steamroll 99% of the content with a few boss fights needing assigned roles/classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabarok Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 - rotate aggro between players. - kiting. - use x/y/z to your advantage. [etc] I think the problem may be that the trinity has 1 viable tactic (tank gets hit by it, dps hits it, healer heals tank). And we might actually have to come up with new roles and new tactics... rotate aggro, kiting, use x/y/z are also tactics that can be used by trinity teams. Everything a non-trinity team can do, a trinity team can do better. That's why so many people go with that type of team, and because it's so effective, devs build their raids around trinity teams. If they built a raid to be handled by any random 4 players, a trinity team will destroy it. LOTRO has bosses which require rotating aggro. Raids bring along 2 tanks to handle the aggro rotations. When a tactic calls for kiting, it's one of the tank classes that handles the actual kiting. Tanks are simply DPS who have traded some damage for defense. I have seen many ideas of replacing the manner in which players fill the classic trinity roles, but the only idea I saw in this thread on replacing the actual trinity system was by giving players access to all 3 roles simultaneously. This takes away the variety and personalization that players like in MMOs. Trinity system: Players who are best able to handle incoming damage take on the role of tank. Their job is to be the primary target. Players who have abilities for the survival of their team (such as heals & CC) take on the role of support. Everyone else focuses on doing damage. This is refined down to the bare minimum of tank, DPS, healer. There are lots of different tactics for taking on encounters, and many of them will work just fine, but the trinity tactic works best; it works better every time than any other team composition, and its the easiest. Even if your boss encounter calls for kiting or rotating aggro, the encounter will still work better with tanks handling the kiting/rotating backed up by healers repairing the damage than if you had nothing but DPS. You could still do it with nothing but DPS, but not as easily as the trinity team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekloffin Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I always fail to understand why people want to remove even more distinction from the classes. Doing this won't improve grouping, it will just as bad because now people have to good at 3 tasks instead of just one (or the game is just boring and is just a pew pew fest to beat a timer). It also is just going to alienate those that like tanking/healing roles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amiracle Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 My guess it will end up like CoH, where you would just group up then steamroll 99% of the content with a few boss fights needing assigned roles/classes. Thats what I am thinking. Another question came to mind.....gearing. If everyone has 3 potential roles will they all need 3 different sets of gear? Or will it be one set of gear to rule them all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Napalm_AKI Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 so what next then tank/heal and dps/heal hybrid? We been steadily loosing roles since the days of EQ. I remember the party there was never complete without someone casting Mez or CC as it is now known. And desirable buffer or debuffer. trinity is the basis for this game, there is simply no getting around that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtybomb Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) I disagree, removing the need for a "tank" would almost eliminate the need for dedicated healers. Making the fights more about situational tactics, instead of simple number crunching would also at the same time make them more engaging. I'm trying to think of a scenario where the trinity is not required for a boss fight, but everyone isn't the same in regards to abilities/talents. If it is about situational mechanics that don't require a specific skill set to deal with, why would anyone even be different? I feels like everyone would dps and be able to heal themselves to some extent, unless you are talking about a mario-type platformer that doesn't require damage output. Just have to avoid the fire and get to some level to click on the objective I guess? Seriously, my coffee hasn't kicked in so I'm having a hard time visualizing this. Anyone care to spell out a scenario where the trinity isn't needed so anyone can fill the Ops spots, but everyone isn't basically the same talent-wise? Edit: Yep, gonna need help with this. The more I think about it, the more it feels like everyone has the same talents and abilities. Otherwise, if there was a mechanic that require a talent/ability that only certain classes had, you'd be no better off than you were with the trinity setup. Edited February 20, 2012 by Dirtybomb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethern Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 We told Bioware since 2008 that the trinity was a bad idea. They responded saying that it was the best way to assure interdependence between players and challenge. Ofc it is BS. Now we notice the same problems as in other MMOs relying on the trinity. One role is missing, and the content cannot be run. I have none respects for a developer whose design led to " LFG tank and healer" spam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabemx Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Although you don't realize it, you've basically said "Should Ford convert all their F-150s to boats?". They are already boats pretty much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabemx Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Hell EQ didn't have a trinity they had a quadity (is that even a word) Needed a Healer/Tank/Crowd controller/DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amiracle Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 We told Bioware since 2008 that the trinity was a bad idea. They responded saying that it was the best way to assure interdependence between players and challenge. Ofc it is BS. Now we notice the same problems as in other MMOs relying on the trinity. One role is missing, and the content cannot be run. I have none respects for a developer whose design led to " LFG tank and healer" spam. Your opinions are acknowledged. Do you have any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtybomb Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) I have none respects for a developer whose design led to " LFG tank and healer" spam. Their design didn't lead to LFG spam. The fact that so few players want to play tanks and healers is what led to it. Honestly, this is the result of a lazy player base. Or, it is also possible that the same issues that wow had followed us here to swtor. There may be plenty of tanks and healers, but they just don't wanna deal with the annoying pug community. I stopped running pugs a long time ago because of this. In my guild, we actually have the issue of having too many tanks. Kinda sucks when you have to sit, but I'd rather have that problem than not having enough tanks for the guild to clear content. Edit: grammar fail Edited February 20, 2012 by Dirtybomb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethern Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Your opinions are acknowledged. Do you have any suggestions?There were good suggestions which reached some kind of forum consensus back then. Since previous forums have been wiped, I can't find them back. Out of my mind there were two categories: - one planning mechanics scaling on the playstyle combinations. So no archetypes were left out - one planning mechanics according to the trinity, but less relying on it. So that if you have none healer, the content can still be done. If you want details, I'm sorry I can't find them back. Anyway it's too late. The archetypes shortage will always be suffered from in that MMO. Even a cross server LFG won't solve that issue; just partially lessen it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThiborF Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Their design didn't lead to LFG spam. The fact that so few players want to play tanks and healers is what led to it. Honestly, this is the result of a lazy player base. Or, it is also possible that the same issues that wow had followed us here to swtor. There may be plenty of tanks and healers, but they just don't wanna deal with the annoying pug community. I stopped running pugs a long time ago because of this. In my guild, we actually have the issue of having too many tanks. Kinda sucks when you have to sit, but I'd rather have that problem than not having enough tanks for the guild to clear content. Edit: grammar fail +1 So true. I know quite a few folks with tanks and/or healers that don't PuG with them. That is more to do with how online MMO communities in general have devolved due to prevalent attitudes than it is about enjoyment in playing those roles within a fun and supportive group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethern Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Their design didn't lead to LFG spam. The fact that so few players want to play tanks and healers is what led to it. Honestly, this is the result of a lazy player base. Or, it is also possible that the same issues that wow had followed us here to swtor. There may be plenty of tanks and healers, but they just don't wanna deal with the annoying pug community. I stopped running pugs a long time ago because of this. In my guild, we actually have the issue of having too many tanks. Kinda sucks when you have to sit, but I'd rather have that problem than not having enough tanks for the guild to clear content. Edit: grammar failIn any case, the blame is on the developer, for not planning this "laziness" you describe, and opting for a trinity nevertheless. They addressed that with companions. And we shut up. It was in 2009, before they made so that companions are useless for challenging fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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