RuQu Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 You also don't get to be in that position without knowing the PR philosophy. Any "Dev Q&A" will always leave you disappointed if you go into it expecting them to admit large gameplay problems or commit to anything specific. The positive here is he basically said fixes are coming. Which is good. Some people in this thread need to calm down and realise that BW have far more data than we do about the state of the game and healing in particular, they know the problems and will try to fix them. Once the fix is put in place and you disagree with it, then feel free to complain =) If you read the whole thread you will see it repeated many times that this was clearly worded with PR filters in place, and that "room for improvement" was code for "yeah, its broke and we know." The previous poster had suggested the person giving us the answers wasn't informed. I was merely saying that if anyone WAS informed, it was GZ. That said, much of the rage in this thread isn't about the lack of answers (as, once you translate the PR speak) the answers sound like good news. Much of the rage is due to the tone of the response, and that single line that suggests he has zero experience with actually playing an Operative healer, as there is no way Surgical Probe can be considered a burst healing tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovjohn Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) The improvement will be a button that allows you to delete your scoundrel/op and reroll sage/sorc with a single click, as opposed to it taking multiple. I don't have anything constructive to add to this thread before I go to sleep, I'm just quoting this because I lol'd. Some "improvement" this would be! Edited February 23, 2012 by Sovjohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinsal Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) That dev post reminds me of warhammer and there stance on bomb groups..for months they said it working as intended until they rolled out the city invasion changes on pts and played it agaist um actaul players then they as dev team had to face the ol two premade pull and bomb group..after getting rick rolled all night only then did they start to nerf the effectiveness of said bomb group it was all fine and dandy when there player base was leaving in droves cause of said bomb groups but once they got rick rolled for a night it was not working as intended... Edited February 23, 2012 by Kinsal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LancelotOC Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 So all we need to do is make them try to finish some flashpoints as Ops and as main healers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylriana Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 as there is no way Surgical Probe can be considered a burst healing tool. Well clearly that's what the devs intend, with the way Surgical Precision is designed. Probably part of the issue that our efficient heal is also "intended" to be our emergency heal. They should probably retool the talent's secondary effect to work with KInf or something (Since infusion actually is our burst heal).... and let us cast it while moving or something (DS too.... oh, speaking of DS, consolidate that trashy two tier DS buffing talent.) though that's more housekeeping than raw buffage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuQu Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Well clearly that's what the devs intend, with the way Surgical Precision is designed. Probably part of the issue that our efficient heal is also "intended" to be our emergency heal. They should probably retool the talent's secondary effect to work with KInf or something (Since infusion actually is our burst heal).... and let us cast it while moving or something (DS too.... oh, speaking of DS, consolidate that trashy two tier DS buffing talent.) though that's more housekeeping than raw buffage... And it might be a definition difference, like "viable" vs "Competitive." Bacta Infusion could be called burst because it puts out a decent heal for 1.5s instant cast...but with a 21s cooldown I can't spam it. To me, burst means "healing through a burst of damage" which tends to last ~10s, and a single cast just doesn't cut it. Nor does a single cast and praying to the gods of RNG that you can get a second one. My guess is that they intended KInf to be in the standard efficient rotation and then use SP as burst, but they made KInf to expensive and weak to be work in that role, and SP, with its piddly little 1.38 coefficient, is too weak to really make a good emergency burst (compare Bacta Infusion with 2.28 or UWM at 2.72). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylriana Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) And it might be a definition difference, like "viable" vs "Competitive." Bacta Infusion could be called burst because it puts out a decent heal for 1.5s instant cast...but with a 21s cooldown I can't spam it. That does seem to be a big point of consternation whenever the topic of Op healing comes up. To me, burst means "healing through a burst of damage" which tends to last ~10s, and a single cast just doesn't cut it. Nor does a single cast and praying to the gods of RNG that you can get a second one. I think they intend it just to straight forward mean "A lot of healing in a short time period", under which spells like Bacta Infusion work just fine, where the move isn't practical to use constantly ( because of its CD in this case ) but packs a big enough punch to help support someone through a high damage phase. My guess is that they intended KInf to be in the standard efficient rotation and then use SP as burst, but they made KInf to expensive and weak to be work in that role, and SP, with its piddly little 1.38 coefficient, is too weak to really make a good emergency burst (compare Bacta Infusion with 2.28 or UWM at 2.72). I have trouble believing the latter is the case, simply because it's difficult to think they'd screw up so badly as to have the moves usages almost reversed (almost because Infusion is almost never worth casting, but the only situation it is is when you need an emergency heal and SP can't keep up ), where infusion is too pricy to use regularly but has a decent HPCT, and SP is too weak to actually sustain someone through heavy burst, but cheap enough to allow you to go extend your rotation out for quite a while if you weave it in. Either way, trying to figure out what the devs expect of our playstyle can be difficult to figure out and doesn't really help the situation. As it stands SP is trying to serve simultaneously as our efficiency heal and our burst heal (failing at the latter), and KInf goes largely uncasted outside a few niche moments. Edited February 23, 2012 by Sylriana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haemans Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 The fact that he referenced Surgical Probe as burst healing does not evoke thoughts of confidence, at least not as far as this Operative is concerned. This had me worried about the basic competency of the developers as well. But, the more I think about it, the more I think this is just Georg making an obligitory defense against RuQu's exaggeration. Essentially, RuQu, claimed that Scoundrels had "no tools" for doing a short burst of healing. This is obviously an exaggeration. It was intended for emphasis. RuQu did not intend to be taken literally. He meant that we had no competitive tools for burst healing. The Scoundrel could obviously spam UWM on a single target and that qualifies as short burst healing. Is it a reasonable solution, though? Essentially, he was pedantically correcting RuQu's figurative language in case the readers interpreted his lack of a defense as agreement that Scoundrels have "no tools" for burst healing. He threw out an incredibly lame example because he had to or else people would take his silence for assent. This is CYA, plain and simple. Or at least, this is the only thing I can think of which allows me to hope that he's not an idiot and is just doing the PR thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluetickone Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 This isn't a win. No way. That, THAT, THAT was a giant blowoff of everything we've been saying the boards. Is summary, we've been showing time and time again that the Ops healing spec and the Merc healing spec PALE in comparison to the Sorc healing spec, that though we CAN do something with much effort, the Sorc can do it better, thereby making Ops essentially obeslete. His answer was essentially a "nu uh". Please Georg, tell me where taking an Ops healer is a better choice than taking a Sorc healer. Name one situation. ONE. Just one. Please show me where an Ops healer gets the job done better than the other two classes. Just one situation. JUST ONE. (Hint: not going to happen) And by the way, frontloading the RN healing won't fix anything. What a miserable pile of fail. Dude is clueless....'everything is fine because we have people that can clear all pve content with any healing class.' Thats nice Georg, what about pvp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuQu Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 This had me worried about the basic competency of the developers as well. But, the more I think about it, the more I think this is just Georg making an obligitory defense against RuQu's exaggeration. Essentially, RuQu, claimed that Scoundrels had "no tools" for doing a short burst of healing. This is obviously an exaggeration. It was intended for emphasis. RuQu did not intend to be taken literally. He meant that we had no competitive tools for burst healing. The Scoundrel could obviously spam UWM on a single target and that qualifies as short burst healing. Is it a reasonable solution, though? Essentially, he was pedantically correcting RuQu's figurative language in case the readers interpreted his lack of a defense as agreement that Scoundrels have "no tools" for burst healing. He threw out an incredibly lame example because he had to or else people would take his silence for assent. This is CYA, plain and simple. Or at least, this is the only thing I can think of which allows me to hope that he's not an idiot and is just doing the PR thing. I think you are probably correct. I wasn't intending it as exaggeration, and, in fact, I tried to word it to be non-sensationalist and avoid hyperbole. I don't consider "blow all of your energy spamming UWM" to be a tool for burst healing. I consider Commando's SCC which removes the cooldown on our high powered heal combo a tool for burst. A cooldown that when activated made every tick of SRMP generate UH would make EMP a burst ability, for instance, or that removed the cap on UH for 15s and made every UWM grant 2 or 3 stacks so you could do a couple of UWM casts, then spam EMP while the energy recovered. Those are tools. Just wasting all of your energy and then sitting out the fight isn't a tool, in my opinion, but I suppose it actually is an option that Scoundrels and Operatives have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haemans Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) I wasn't intending it as exaggeration, and, in fact, I tried to word it to be non-sensationalist and avoid hyperbole. I don't consider "blow all of your energy spamming UWM" to be a tool for burst healing. I consider Commando's SCC which removes the cooldown on our high powered heal combo a tool for burst. A cooldown that when activated made every tick of SRMP generate UH would make EMP a burst ability, for instance, or that removed the cap on UH for 15s and made every UWM grant 2 or 3 stacks so you could do a couple of UWM casts, then spam EMP while the energy recovered. Those are tools. Just wasting all of your energy and then sitting out the fight isn't a tool, in my opinion, but I suppose it actually is an option that Scoundrels and Operatives have. I agree with you. I did not intend to imply that your post was worded badly or carelessly. Exaggeration is used all the time by pretty much everyone to quickly make a point. I think most reasonable people would agree that spamming UWM is not a "real" tool to mitigate against burst damage. Neither is EMP by itself. This is where the PR comes in. If he concedes the point, by not addressing it, then everyone will forever throw that back in his face. They will always point to that post where Georg admitted that Scoundrels have no way to deal with "burst healing". If he makes up a lame example, at least he can still claim that he never admitted to anything. That will buy them time to decide what to do. From his perspective, admitting that the class has fundamental shortcomings would be a disaster, because it would bind them to fixing it and fixing it quickly. Openly admitting a class is somewhat "broken", while reassuring to the advanced player, may cause all kinds of dissatisfaction among more casual players who may never even have noticed a big problem. This is why I think they know something is wrong and intend to address it, but they think that stalling is the best short term course of action. *Crosses Fingers* Edited February 24, 2012 by Haemans fixed wording from "healing" to "damage" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuQu Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I agree with you. I did not intend to imply that your post was worded badly or carelessly. Exaggeration is used all the time by pretty much everyone to quickly make a point. I think most reasonable people would agree that spamming UWM is not a "real" tool to mitigate against burst healing. Neither is EMP by itself. This is where the PR comes in. If he concedes the point, by not addressing it, then everyone will forever throw that back in his face. They will always point to that post where Georg admitted that Scoundrels have no way to deal with "burst healing". If he makes up a lame example, at least he can still claim that he never admitted to anything. That will buy them time to decide what to do. From his perspective, admitting that the class has fundamental shortcomings would be a disaster, because it would bind them to fixing it and fixing it quickly. Openly admitting a class is somewhat "broken", while reassuring to the advanced player, may cause all kinds of dissatisfaction among more casual players who may never even have noticed a big problem. This is why I think they know something is wrong and intend to address it, but they think that stalling is the best short term course of action. *Crosses Fingers* Agreed on all points. Admitting it was broken would only exacerbate the problem of groups not taking Scoundrels/Operatives. No one would run with them after an admission by the Devs that they weren't competitive. After all of the "working as intended" they end with "room for improvement" and a "sizable chunk" of changes are incoming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haemans Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 After all of the "working as intended" they end with "room for improvement" and a "sizable chunk" of changes are incoming. Exactly. This is damage control and managing expectations. They know it is not quite "working as intended", or else the improvement would not be needed. Well stated. And much more concise than my attempt. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuQu Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Exactly. This is damage control and managing expectations. They know it is not quite "working as intended", or else the improvement would not be needed. Well stated. And much more concise than my attempt. Oh well. Trust me, it's a fluke. "Concise" does not normally describe me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirdthestrill Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Trust me, it's a fluke. "Concise" does not normally describe me. You need to change your name to "RuQu the Guru". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtlehed Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) oooops wrong thread Edited February 24, 2012 by Turtlehed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saella Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 You need to change your name to "RuQu the Guru". Upper hand granted I agree ahahaah ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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