Concealment Operative > Deception Assassin

[Eddbert]

Concealment Operative < Deception Assassin

 

 

Fixxed it for you. If you don't think so anyone on my server who is Op pm and we can setup duels.

[Kurfer]

Being ball carrier in Huttball almost every game is boring - that's why I re-rolled to Operative, much more fun in Huttball surprisingly.

 

I love carrying the ball, passing and catching soooo much damn fun. Addicted to huttball

 

The main reason I dumped my 50 BH and rolled an assassin.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Kurfer

[Lowerydro]

I love carrying the ball, passing and catching soooo much damn fun. Addicted to huttball

 

The main reason I dumped my 50 BH and rolled an assassin.

 

I love it too.... why I get bored playing WZ's with anything other than the sin.

 

Plus if you have teammates running with you, instead of making an easy goal pass to them right at the line and let them score. I get so many people saying thanks and voting me mvp that way.

 

Plus there is the benefit of going darkness and getting force pull. Force pull and grapple can be more effective than an entire team in Huttball.

[Xaearth]

There is an Op on my server I pvp with regularly. Since Ops are short on utility he basically hunts down people in FULL HEALTH and picks them off where they can't get support.

 

You're talking about a good player who can analyze his targets and decide who is bad enough to let him get a quick kill with no trouble at all so he can quickly drop combat and re-enter stealth immediately after killing that target.

 

Any other situation, any situation where the target has any modicum of skill, the Operative fails.

 

He literally has to burst someone down and re-enter stealth before anyone else gets involved, because it's a simple fact that you aren't going to pull those numbers if you ever have to rely on your in-combat stealth.

 

And since something as simple as a group buff getting thrown around can lock you into combat even after your target is dead (that's assuming they aren't intelligent enough to defend themselves against the burst)...

 

It's a stars-aligned situation, made infinitely easier by targeting bads.

[AbhiX]

Strongly disagree, I'll take it point by point:

 

1: True, but going back into stealth is harder then it seems, if someone runs away from us, we have to hide for 8s+ (whatever it is to get out of combat) to restealth. Most fights are not 1v1, and people join in during the process, which means even if we kill our original target, most of the time we can't just jump back into stealth, and cloaking screen still has a 1m CD. On top of that, if we have a dot on us (which almost every class does do) we have to take time to cleanse the dot, which can be the difference between getting back into stealth and getting charged at by a marauder/PT/Juggernaut, especially in lvl 50 combat, that's assuming it's a dot we can cleanse (can not remove things like Affliction).

 

2: Comparable in what way? You have a great rotation with Voltaic Slash, Shock (which is proc'd bonus damage), Thrash, Low Strike, Maul, and then you have Surging charge which can do tons of internal damage. On top of that, your slow lasts more then 2 seconds, and only is a 12s cooldown. Sin's out of stealth viability is much more then a Operative's.

 

3: Sins have a great out of stealth rotation. We've got (AB) Backstab (10s CD) -> Shiv (6s, not that strong) -> Lacerate (maybe get a second one if it procs another TA). In 3 seconds we blow most of our useful attacks and are left with Charged Shot, which is far too much energy and is weak weapon damage. We could use 1 GCD to dot them with Corrosive Dart, but we still have a good amount of time until the next shiv at that rate. In prolonged out of combat fighting, Operatives have the lowest damage out of all classes, we are incredibly reliant on getting hidden strike. The best we can do if we start the fight out of stealth, is to get lucky with Laceration procs, and to use our roots/stuns to kite them while they take dot damage (and hope they don't have any cc breakers). Sins have a strong out of combat rotation, and I don't have any problems fighting with him out of combat.

 

4: This is true, but doesn't matter as much now since surge isn't as good. However you get a higher crit bonus (50% bonus compared to our 30%) and your thing that gets the bonus (shock) gets a 45% to deal 50% of it's normal damage on top if it. More on that you get a 50% bonus damage to your discharge, which does incredible damage as is (internal at that!). So we might crit slightly more often, you'll crit FAR harder when you do.

 

5: We have heals but they are not that strong, or useful if not spec'd into it. The only decent one is Kolto Injection, and that one costs a ton of energy, which is very hard for us to keep over prolonged combat. Where as you have taunts, which are off the GCD, and much more useful to the party, and you don't have to spec them to make them even very slightly viable, where as we have to put at least 2 points in the in the healing tree, to reduce the casting time of KI to make it a little viable (very situational).

 

6: This point is actually true. We have Jarring Strike, Debilitation Stab (30s CD when spec'd, 3s stun, does minor damage), FB (they can't be dot'd if you are going to use it on them, but is good for interrupts), and if you want to count it, Sleep Dart. Our root is only for 2s, and has a 15s CD, nothing compared to your 9s slow with a 9s CD. So we do have better CCs, not amazingly better, but yes, better overall.

 

7: First, the dot isn't instant, it kind of double casts at the beginning at times, it takes about 1.5s to get to the person and effect them. The first tick doesn't occur until 3s after the needle hits them. So if they are 30m away from you, the first tick won't happen for about 4 to 4.5s after the cast. It's a good dot doubt, but whenever we dot someone, we can't go into stealth, which we rely on FAR more then a sin does.

 

8: We have 30m range on our basic attack, which is weak. Besides that, we are never going to be 30m away firing at someone cause all our useful attacks are <10m. Besides that, firing at someone puts us into combat, which means we can't stealth, which once again, puts us at a disadvantage. Operatives want to be in stealth, we will not be firing 30m away, the only time I do is when I see a person 15m+ away, being ganged up by 2 of my team, and I know he's going to die fast, I just shoot to help (and earn extra slayer kill). The only thing I might use semi-constantly at 30m is Corrosive Dart, and that's only if there's 4+ people to dart, and I have Cloaking Screen off CD.

 

9: It roots for 2s and it has a 15s CD (This is when spec'd). Your slow is 9s and has a 9s cooldown. Our root (Severe Tendon FYI) only does 300 kinetic damage, compared to your Force Slow's 600+ kinetic damage (a decent amount). So yeah, your slow is 2 or 3x better then our root. I'd take your slow any day of the week over Severe Tendon.

 

Now it's time for me to add a few things. First and most importantly, you guys a have <30% bonus attack (Assassinate), which is great bonus for fighting out of stealth or even getting the jump on someone. Your Force Speed is a huge advantage cause it's great for flag running, catching up to someone, getting away from someone, getting to a door/node to stop a arm/flip, and I'm sure there's other things I may not know about that it's good for. You have a base regeneration rate (unlike ours which changes based on how much energy we have) and far better way to keep your energy, such as getting 10 force occasionally for hitting people, 25% bonus out of stealth, and all the abilities that lower the amount your attacks cost. You have Recklessness, which increases your next 2 Force attacks crit chance by 60%, combine that with how great your procs can be for shock and discharge, you can easily get a 90% crit chance with them (and of course 50% bonus crit damage) and have a HUGE burst, far more then anything Operative could do, just less often. Stack relics/adrenales/stims with that, and you probably have 100% chance to crit and 120% bonus crit damage easily for 2 force attacks (Shock then Discharge in a row). Your Overcharged Saber is far more useful since it gives a huge damage bonus, and can be used every 90s compared to our cast time Ressurection (can be interrupted at that) that has a 5m cooldown.

 

Overall, each class has their own advantages, but Sin has more wide spread viability right now then Operative. Operatives have a great burst, and some good cc control, but other then that, they are very weak. They have a very specific roll to play, and are not good at anything else other then that roll. Sin's are not a stealth based class, like Operatives are, which is where I think is why you thought Operatives were so much better. Sins have stealth to use, to get the jump and get a advantage on their opponent, but they do the brunt of their damage out of stealth, not coming out of stealth. Anyway, everything I said is obviously from my viewpoint, so you may still think differently then me, even if you did manage to get through this whole post. I'm basing my experience off of having raised a PT/Operative/Assassin/Sage to 50 and Jugg/Sentinel/Commando to 45. I've played quite a few of my friend's Sin's as well.

 

 

Sorry for the long post >.>

 

Here is my response point by point

1. Well the problems you are saying regarding goin back to stealth is the same with a sin/shadow as well. Also, we both agree that Scoundrel/operative have better stealth burst.

 

2. I posted it before, i will post it again

Now calculating a sin/shadows out of stealth burst. As a full bm hitting a 650 expertise scoundrel. Buffed up shock (With relics, recklessness etc etc) Does 4.2k dmg if single hit, 6.5k dmg if double hit. Followed by discharge (Not considering all 5 charges) which does like 4k dmg...So the burst is close to 10k

Now a scoundrel could flashbang, Use a Sabotage Charge, Cast XS firefighter, Flechette round + Back Blast

Now this would be Sabotage Charge (3.2k dmg if crit), XS (3k dmg per tick per crit), Back Blast(3.2k dmg if crit ), Flecheete round (3k dmg over 6 seconds)

So this also gives close to 10k dmg in an instant on a player out of stealth

I agree, it would be easier for the sin to set it up compared to an operative/scoundrel

 

3. Now I am talking about sustained dmg in pvp. Now your calculation that it took 3 secs to do all that is wrong. Even with the skills u r using, it would be 4.5 secs, i.e. 1gcd short of another rotation. ALSO, In pvp...You don't get to use the rotation like that. You use other skills also, Dirty kick, flashbang, heals, Tendon blast. I mean, in real pvp, you rarely fall short of useful skills to use if they r in cd

Sins use the rotation 2x Voltaic slash, Trash which does like 1.5k dmg avg then shock and discharge if cd is up. Non crit shock hits for 1.4k dmg.

So IF shock doesn't crit, which it usually doesnt..sin ends up doing 4.5k dmg in about 4.5 sec gcd While Flecheete round does more than half of it being a no gcd dot

 

I mean, I have both the characters... Really scoundrels do better sustained dps out of stealth compared to sins

 

4. Shock non crit 1.4k dmg crit 3.4k dmg

Back blast non crit 1.5k crit 3.2k + flechete round

Look pretty much all skills do the same dmg on crits, while scoundrel does more crits

 

5. As i posted before, heals are enough to get us back one heal crits heals us for about 30% of our hp

 

Regarding your extra points... I agree assassinate is useful too

Overcharge saber isn't that great, considerin we have a 25% chance to proc surging charge

Next, even with recklessness up, People know when the are about to be hit by the burst..they use their defensive cds reducing the dmg output by a loooot!

[Xaearth]

2. I posted it before, i will post it again

Now calculating a sin/shadows out of stealth burst. As a full bm hitting a 650 expertise scoundrel. Buffed up shock (With relics, recklessness etc etc) Does 4.2k dmg if single hit, 6.5k dmg if double hit. Followed by discharge (Not considering all 5 charges) which does like 4k dmg...So the burst is close to 10k

Now a scoundrel could flashbang, Use a Sabotage Charge, Cast XS firefighter, Flechette round + Back Blast

Now this would be Sabotage Charge (3.2k dmg if crit), XS (3k dmg per tick per crit), Back Blast(3.2k dmg if crit ), Flecheete round (3k dmg over 6 seconds)

So this also gives close to 10k dmg in an instant on a player out of stealth

I agree, it would be easier for the sin to set it up compared to an operative/scoundrel

 

Lol... That's an understatement.

 

3. Now I am talking about sustained dmg in pvp. Now your calculation that it took 3 secs to do all that is wrong. Even with the skills u r using, it would be 4.5 secs, i.e. 1gcd short of another rotation. ALSO, In pvp...You don't get to use the rotation like that. You use other skills also, Dirty kick, flashbang, heals, Tendon blast. I mean, in real pvp, you rarely fall short of useful skills to use if they r in cd

Sins use the rotation 2x Voltaic slash, Trash which does like 1.5k dmg avg then shock and discharge if cd is up. Non crit shock hits for 1.4k dmg.

So IF shock doesn't crit, which it usually doesnt..sin ends up doing 4.5k dmg in about 4.5 sec gcd While Flecheete round does more than half of it being a no gcd dot

 

I mean, I have both the characters... Really scoundrels do better sustained dps out of stealth compared to sins

 

You so silly, comparing an Operative getting backstabs to an Assassin ignoring his Exploit Weakness procs.

 

5. As i posted before, heals are enough to get us back one heal crits heals us for about 30% of our hp

 

In order to get that heal off in combat, the operative is going to have to do it during one of their CC, and that's a big deal for the class without a gap closer.

 

Next, even with recklessness up, People know when the are about to be hit by the burst..they use their defensive cds reducing the dmg output by a loooot!

 

L2Fake

Assassins aren't as reliant on their CCs to get their burst off (we can still burst without Maul), so coax out the defensive CDs then CC your target and drop the burst after the CDs wear off.

[kijthae]

darkness assasin > Concealment Operative > Deception Assassin

 

assasin has more flexibility while ops are stealth dependent.

[Nwalmaer]

I need to see some proof of this assasin damage. Based on my experience it just doesnt happen unless you are level 49 fighting a level 20. Abhix you need to post a guide if you are doing that damage. It would greatly help others. Edited February 18, 2012 by Nwalmaer

[Xaearth]

I need to see some proof of this assasin damage. Based on my experience it just doesnt happen unless you are level 49 fighting a level 20. Abhix you need to post a guide if you are doing that damage. It would greatly help others.

 

If I had to guess, I'd say you aren't full Deception spec and/or are trying to hybrid/use a charge other than Surging Charge.

 

I've yet to meet a full Deception spec that uses their skills beyond maul-spam complain about their damage.

 

Their survivability? Sure.

The predictability of their burst (it's coming soon after the 2x Voltaic)? Sure.

 

But if you aren't playing into that predictability and blowing your burst against your target's defensive CDs, the damage is fine.

[islossk]

And better survivability thanks to Darkness on a Sin and I think it's Kinetic?? on the a shadow. And guard to protect the ball carrier. And debuffs that reduce the damage of the other team. As well as a utility that allows it to take several roles almost completely on the fly with no need to respec. Don't sell the Assassins/Shadows short, they can actually be a game changer in PvP.

 

not so much since the stance nerf read the patch notes buddy

[islossk]

idk why, but this word makes me smile.

 

Different classes are different. Both are stealthers, but operative is frontloaded damage with low mobility and sin is more backload burst or high sustained (madness) and great mobility.

 

Not gonna lie, being able to use your autoattack at 30y is fantastic, and a 30y spammable DoT would be nice, but I'm quite happy with sin in its current state. Full champ geared on both, and both do very well in all BGs.

 

If we're comparing apples to pears, I'll stick with pear. Not because they're better, but because their different and freaking delicious.

 

**** pears, apples rock!

[Nwalmaer]

I'm speced full deception. 2/31/8.

[Omniscience]

I need to see some proof of this assasin damage. Based on my experience it just doesnt happen unless you are level 49 fighting a level 20. Abhix you need to post a guide if you are doing that damage. It would greatly help others.

 

<notice that he is fighting equally geared level 50s throughout the video, getting more difficult as it progresses

 

 

This is part of Powerr's shadow/assassin burst guide, which you can check out here to see how he does it > http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=177739&highlight=shadow+burst+guide

 

 

You can also check out this vid which is also Powerr's

Edited February 20, 2012 by Omniscience

[AetherMcLoud]

9: It roots for 2s and it has a 15s CD (This is when spec'd). Your slow is 9s and has a 9s cooldown. Our root (Severe Tendon FYI) only does 300 kinetic damage, compared to your Force Slow's 600+ kinetic damage (a decent amount). So yeah, your slow is 2 or 3x better then our root. I'd take your slow any day of the week over Severe Tendon.

 

Dude. Force Slow has a base 12 sec cooldown and slows for 6 seconds. Fully specced it slows for 12 seconds and has a 6 seconds cooldown.

 

Sever Tendon has a 12 seconds cooldown and slows for 12 seconds, specced it also roots for 2 seconds on top of the slow. Sever Tendon is way better than Force Slow.