I miss the Horde

[ProfessorWalsh]

You sire, are completely and utterly wrong. First you completely bypass the existence of an honorable, "misunderstood", and violent culture in the star wars universe called Mandalorians, that at many times during Kotor and ToR precent themselves as the prime "villains" if not principal allies to the sith.

 

Actually... You are completely wrong... This is because you don't understand Mandalorians in this case.

 

There are two kinds of Mandalorians in Star Wars.

 

1. Real Mandalorians

2. Karen Traviss Mandalorians

 

Real Mandalorians - Seen in KotOR I, II, and the comics - are not misunderstood at all. They are villains. They don't consider themselves villains, of course, but that doesn't mean they aren't.

 

To use the Tom Smith song again:

 

"They never tortured, they never lied, they'd honor a promise even if they died."

 

That is a Real Mandalorian to a T.

 

They aren't misunderstood good guys though. They roam around the galaxy and mount attacks unprovoked for no reason other than they want to test themselves. They murder, pillage, and (censored) as a means of sustaining their culture. They will roll into a settlement, slaughter it wholesale, and take women and children to use as slaves who they may, or may not, adopt into their culture.

 

There is nothing misunderstood about that. That is evil.

 

Karen Traviss Mandalorians are worse because they do the very things they scream about the Jedi doing. They do all the things noted above, but then decry others for doing anything even remotely similar.

 

To point out the hypocrisy of Traviss Mandos, the Mandos have no problem jumping an innocent and more or less defenseless settlement, take anything they want while killing all the men and woman in the process. Then they enslave and then indocrinate the children effectively brainwashing them.

 

However if a Jedi Master takes a child from an abusive home the Jedi is a vile baby-snatcher.

 

 

That said, Siths are indeed evil-villainy type IF and only IF you were to completely ignore the existance of Sith like Lord Scourge (Dark Side Sith, who will struggle to prevent the destruction of the universe.)

 

Scourge could care less about stopping the destruction of the universe for the sake of stopping evil. Scourge cares about stopping the destruction of the Galaxy because he lives in the Galaxy and he has plans on one day ruling that Galaxy. He isn't saving it because it is good, he is saving it because he wants/needs the Galaxy.

 

Star Wars is not as black and white as you make it sound.

 

No, it pretty much is.

[Assaultrooper]

They aren't misunderstood good guys though. They roam around the galaxy and mount attacks unprovoked for no reason other than they want to test themselves. They murder, pillage, and (censored) as a means of sustaining their culture. They will roll into a settlement, slaughter it wholesale, and take women and children to use as slaves who they may, or may not, adopt into their culture.

 

First I believe you just describe an orc from world of warcraft

 

I never said they were misunderstood good guys, they are misunderstood guys. Cause you are implying the republic does not participate in any of this activities, having presided over the greatest genocide in the star wars universe, as well as "roll into settlement, slaughter it wholesales, and [Murder women and children]" (Excluding EU, which I have absolutely no knowledge, yet I consider it to be not relevant at all.) When did this happen? at the end of the great hyperspace war.

 

Sounds like the "Bad Guys" aren't as bad as the "Good Guys". Unless ofcourse trying to convert a settlement/taking its population as slaves is worse than genocide.

 

There is nothing misunderstood about that. That is evil.

 

Yes it is, and your assertion just proves it. You don't understand why they do it, the drive to be glorious, the concept of seeking to enrich a culture's honor, appears alien to you. Therefore you flag them as evil.

 

To point out the hypocrisy of Traviss Mandos, the Mandos have no problem jumping an innocent and more or less defenseless settlement, take anything they want while killing all the men and woman in the process. Then they enslave and then indocrinate the children effectively brainwashing them.

 

It make sense if you believe that your cause is worth mass murder.

 

Scourge could care less about stopping the destruction of the universe for the sake of stopping evil. Scourge cares about stopping the destruction of the Galaxy because he lives in the Galaxy and he has plans on one day ruling that Galaxy. He isn't saving it because it is good, he is saving it because he wants/needs the Galaxy.

 

Scourge could care less for stopping evil, as anyone should! If you engage in a crusade to stop evil you are becoming a self-righteous jedi! Scourge looks at the problem from a fairly resonable PoV he does not dream of one day ruling the galaxy, what he cares about is power. The Emperor's Plot threatens to robe Scourge from it source of power, and therefore must be stopped, going by the word of sith philosophy.

 

The thing you are supposed to discover, un-like what you are implying, is that the sith way is not mutually exclusive with the prospering of the galaxy. That the Sith simply show a more competitive way of things, and that it may as the jedi, share a common interest in protecting the galaxy from its enemies.

 

So in conclusion:

No, it pretty much is.

Yea it pretty much isn't.

 

I basically killed the argument in the first line but it seems like you I like to ramble a bit

[ProfessorWalsh]

First I believe you just describe an orc from world of warcraft

 

I never said they were misunderstood good guys, they are misunderstood guys. Cause you are implying the republic does not participate in any of this activities, having presided over the greatest genocide in the star wars universe, as well as "roll into settlement, slaughter it wholesales, and [Murder women and children]" (Excluding EU, which I have absolutely no knowledge, yet I consider it to be not relevant at all.) When did this happen? at the end of the great hyperspace war.

 

There never has been a genocide carried out by the Republic. The Sith Empire thinks the Republic did this, so does Gnost Dural who is working from (according to BioWare) incorrect and incomplete information.

 

Sounds like the "Bad Guys" aren't as bad as the "Good Guys". Unless ofcourse trying to convert a settlement/taking its population as slaves is worse than genocide.

 

This is a fallacy again, the Republic never committed a genocide.

 

Yes it is, and your assertion just proves it. You don't understand why they do it, the drive to be glorious, the concept of seeking to enrich a culture's honor, appears alien to you. Therefore you flag them as evil.

 

Honor by attacking people who have tried to bring no harm to you does not exist. Cultural beliefs can be evil, and in this case, this one is.

 

It make sense if you believe that your cause is worth mass murder.

 

Just because you think it is worthy doesn't make it so and it doesn't make it any less evil.

 

Scourge could care less for stopping evil, as anyone should! If you engage in a crusade to stop evil you are becoming a self-righteous jedi! Scourge looks at the problem from a fairly resonable PoV he does not dream of one day ruling the galaxy, what he cares about is power. The Emperor's Plot threatens to robe Scourge from it source of power, and therefore must be stopped, going by the word of sith philosophy.

 

He does want to rule the Galaxy, like all Sith do, he wants power and control. He's no different.

 

The thing you are supposed to discover, un-like what you are implying, is that the sith way is not mutually exclusive with the prospering of the galaxy. That the Sith simply show a more competitive way of things, and that it may as the jedi, share a common interest in protecting the galaxy from its enemies.

 

No they don't. The Sith care about protecting the galaxy so that they can conquer it. If Scourge could wave his hand and kill millions to gain power he'd do it without hesitation.

 

So in conclusion: Yea it pretty much isn't.

 

I basically killed the argument in the first line but it seems like you I like to ramble a bit

 

You didn't kill any argument, you are simply saying:

 

"Their culture believes that, so it isn't evil!"

 

and I am saying:

 

"What they believe is irrelevant, evil is evil."

[Assaultrooper]

You didn't kill any argument, you are simply saying:

 

"Their culture believes that, so it isn't evil!"

 

and I am saying:

 

"What they believe is irrelevant, evil is evil."

 

No lol maybe you forgot about it but the center of your argument was "This is not like WoW" were you yourself described mando's exactly as someone would describe Orcs.

 

That said, let the discussion not stop because your love/obseession with simplicity intrigues me.

 

There never has been a genocide carried out by the Republic. The Sith Empire thinks the Republic did this, so does Gnost Dural who is working from (according to BioWare) incorrect and incomplete information.

 

The information of Mandalorian crimes is incomplete! and incorrect therefore they did not take place! Ok seriously tho the targeted, complete, and willing extermination of the Sith Pureblood Race is an act of genocide.

 

Checkout this nifty litlle link:

http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/timeline

 

Honor by attacking people who have tried to bring no harm to you does not exist. Cultural beliefs can be evil, and in this case, this one is.

 

So basically your take in this matter is " I am strong and I want to be stronger, therefore I must fight you to become stronger and better." is an evil statement? And what makes "You are evil therefore I must exterminate you and your race unless you convert to righteousness" so much better?

 

 

 

Just because you think it is worthy doesn't make it so and it doesn't make it any less evil.

 

Just because you think its evil does not mean it is. Just because you can't understand someone's action doesn't mean they are "evil".

 

 

He does want to rule the Galaxy, like all Sith do, he wants power and control. He's no different.

 

No, not all sith genuinely believe themselves capable of beating their superiors. I mean the most Scourge could hope for is defeating Darth (her master forgot her name...) Some sith do have ambitions of ruling the galaxy but not all, it would demental to believe you can become "more powerful" than the emperor as Lord Scourge. Hence he would never ever have the authority to unite the sith as the emperor does, and he knows this. He does not have any ambitions of becoming the next emperor, because he knows he can't.

 

 

 

No they don't. The Sith care about protecting the galaxy so that they can conquer it. If Scourge could wave his hand and kill millions to gain power he'd do it without hesitation.

 

Kill millions for that others may prosper sounds like republican (not in rl) rhetoric to me?

[Darth_Romana]

Issue is:

 

BW always focuses on the Empire as pure bad guys, blood thirsty and murderous killing machines. This is very black/white and not levels of grey..

 

 

I disagree, there are many of respectable and honourable Imperials of the Empire, who do there duty to protect their citizens. Example from the Imperial Agent class story; Watcher two: "sorry sir, but there were 3000 people on that ship, half of them civilians"

 

Watcher two is by no means the only Imperial who cares about the civilians, that is just an example to the fact that Imperials care about things like that.

 

In Fatal Alliance, an Imperial spy risks his life (from the Sith and the Hutts) to get hold of a nav-computer so that he can give it to the Minister of Logistics rather than let the Sith have it.

 

There hasn't been any attempt to paint the Empire and Republic as black and white, and I think that BioWare has made a nice balance.

[ProfessorWalsh]

The information of Mandalorian crimes is incomplete! and incorrect therefore they did not take place! Ok seriously tho the targeted, complete, and willing extermination of the Sith Pureblood Race is an act of genocide.

 

Checkout this nifty litlle link:

http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/timeline

 

The information on the crimes of the Mandolorians is not incomplete.

 

As to the timeline, seriously, check out my interview with BioWare devs at Ask A Jedi from PAX East where Hall Hood straight up said that Dural was working from incomplete information. He made an assumption that there was a Genocide but none of the events in canon (IE a mass falling of Jedi or the Jedi turning on the Republic) that would have heralded such action took place.

 

So basically your take in this matter is " I am strong and I want to be stronger, therefore I must fight you to become stronger and better." is an evil statement? And what makes "You are evil therefore I must exterminate you and your race unless you convert to righteousness" so much better?

 

More like my take in this matter is, "I am strong and I want to be stronger, therefor I must fight and kill you to become stronger and better even if you are not a challenge and if you don't want to fight!" is evil.

 

Nobody ever said "You are evil and therefor I must exterminate you and your race unless you convert to righteousness" so there is no counter point here.

 

The Jedi actually spared the Dark Jedi who later became known as the Sith rather than kill them.

 

Just because you think its evil does not mean it is. Just because you can't understand someone's action doesn't mean they are "evil".

 

Pretty much every definition defines those actions as evil. I can understand their actions just fine, that doesn't make them not evil.

 

No, not all sith genuinely believe themselves capable of beating their superiors. I mean the most Scourge could hope for is defeating Darth (her master forgot her name...) Some sith do have ambitions of ruling the galaxy but not all, it would demental to believe you can become "more powerful" than the emperor as Lord Scourge. Hence he would never ever have the authority to unite the sith as the emperor does, and he knows this. He does not have any ambitions of becoming the next emperor, because he knows he can't.

 

This is incorrect. The core of the Sith belief is that they can become that powerful. Through their passions they can gain power and strength and if they gain enough they can do anything. That is what the Sith code means when it says, "The Force will free me."

 

The idea is that for a Sith there are no upper limits and all Sith believe this. Scourge doesn't know he can't be more powerful than the Emperor or that he couldn't be the Emperor. Scourge knows that the Jedi Knight of TOR is the one who will kill the Emperor though.

 

Kill millions for that others may prosper sounds like republican (not in rl) rhetoric to me?

 

That is actually how the Sith work, and how the Sith have always worked.

[LyriaFrost]

Yes it is, and your assertion just proves it. You don't understand why they do it, the drive to be glorious, the concept of seeking to enrich a culture's honor, appears alien to you. Therefore you flag them as evil.

 

It make sense if you believe that your cause is worth mass murder.

 

Okay, let me just posit this concept, then:

 

You run into a society that ritually slaughters the children of any species/culture they come across, devouring their brains and bathing in their blood, and then kills the parents by beating them to death with a sack full of their childrens' bones. Then they ceremonailly urinate on everything your culture holds dear and sacred.

 

When confronted, they say they do this to "prove" themselves, that it gives them "honor" to treat "lesser cultures" in this manner. They say what they do is not evil, it is simply the way of their culture.

 

Are they evil? Or do you just "not understand their culture", and therefore they're actually GOOD guys?

[Artruyas]

Well, I'm not sure who posted this back then about the lightside/darkside within the factions but I thought it'd be cool and save the entire message.

If you're raised to believe something your entire life, and it's all you know, and the other government has always been said to be evil and oppressive throughout your life, you aren't going to question your country's morals.

 

Slavery? Don't all governments allow it? No? Well, they must be evil.

Racism? The Republic lacks it? Disorganized bastards!

Oppressive nobility? Again, the Republic has none? Who's running that place, the peasants?

 

So, look from the agent's viewpoint. He was raised in the Empire. His parents probably told him the Empire was great. He wasn't a slave, or received any prejudice, so he probably thinks that slaves and the victims of racism ARE lesser people, BECAUSE OF HOW HE WAS RAISED. So, in his eyes, everything the Empire does is morally correct, justified, and completely flawless.

 

It's not because he's evil. It's because he never knew anything else.

 

The trooper companion, Elara Dorne, helps hammer my point in: She had always been told that the Republic were oppressive war criminals and evil bastards. She never knew any better, and always believed it, until she finally got fed up with the Sith and defected.

[Clonedzero]

so the imps are trying to justify genocide, slavery, racism and extreme oppression as just being part of their culture and not evil at all...

 

interesting....

[Assaultrooper]

As to the timeline, seriously, check out my interview with BioWare devs at Ask A Jedi from PAX East where Hall Hood straight up said that Dural was working from incomplete information. He made an assumption that there was a Genocide but none of the events in canon (IE a mass falling of Jedi or the Jedi turning on the Republic) that would have heralded such action took place.

 

Sorry seems I wasn't clear enough, I didn't meant the timeline proved there wasn't enough info on mandalorian crimes, BUT that there was just enough info the crimes of the republic! Genocide: a Jedi Master admits the crime of the republic on the timeline, 3 sith high ranking npcs make reference to it ingame (Only played empire), AND there was no sith pure-blood during the kotor era. Furthermore what actually distinguished this Empire from the Kotor Empire, is the Sith Pure-blood! Proof that the extermination of the Sith Had failed.

 

Now as for Lord Scourge I highly disagree.... Remember that first time he faced that Lord of the council, for the human terrorist group? Remember how coutious he was, how doubtful he was? Remember that he was only convinced into killing him because Nyriss exposed how weak he REALLY was?

 

There is a difference between becoming stronger without limits, AND become stronger without limits now, or even during one lifetime. You can't but wonder though if a core of sith philosophy is to not have any limits, why then adopt a apprentice for the direct purpose of making stronger than you >.>? The reason is quite simple every sith discovers there comes a sort of "limit" to power, or rather diminishing returns on power. It becomes sort of, Effort > Power.

 

Anyways I believe the Mandalorians atleast the ingame ones, /KOTOR ones, to be nobler, more admirable than anything the corrupt decadent excuse of a republic can muster. Why can I ex-peculate that Mandalorians can say "Hey reps you can't kill PoW!" While they can? Easily because the republic believes they must not kill PoW, but not the Mandalorians. (Both of whom do it anyways.)

[Assaultrooper]

so the imps are trying to justify genocide, slavery, racism and extreme oppression as just being part of their culture and not evil at all...

 

interesting....

 

Just saying Genocide (The Empire has not sought the complete eradication of a species as far as I am aware), Slavery, Racism and Extreme Oppression happens in the Republic as well! Only difference in the Empire you have a purpose, while in the republic you are fighting for a bunch of senators. "Glory To the Emperor!" vs "As you say senator Organa."

[tadro]

Where is the misunderstood honorable bad guys? And don't tell me the Empire is the Horde, because the Empire is composed of selfish evil villians all trying to kill each other as well as everyone else.

 

Republic = Alliance

Empire = Burning Crusade or maybe the Scourge

 

 

I miss faction pride =(

 

 

 

Pride?

 

You must study the Sith classics like Darth Bane

 

pride and honor are a fool's prize my friend

 

 

On the other hand mindless slaughter is not a sith virtue as well

Edited February 20, 2012 by tadro

[Xtroll]

After playing trough the Storyline both as super Good and wery Dark on Republic side, I kind of have to agree a tad with OP here.

 

I can understand that the Developers want to revard Republic players to pick Light options and not Vice Versa, After all if most of the Republic turned Dark side because It gave better revards it would feel kind of wierd, But.....

 

One thing that annoys me a lot is this.

 

Republic Light side: Feels like you can save the planet beating hordes of Evil and you still get the Girl in the end.

 

Republic Dark side: Feels like you sacrifice Civilians to save the Girl you get anyway.

 

There are absolutly downside what so ever for going Light sided.

I would love to se some "For the Greater good, Hard choices on light side"

Edited February 20, 2012 by Xtroll

[TKMaster]

I disagree, there are many of respectable and honourable Imperials of the Empire, who do there duty to protect their citizens. Example from the Imperial Agent class story; Watcher two: "sorry sir, but there were 3000 people on that ship, half of them civilians"

 

Watcher two is by no means the only Imperial who cares about the civilians, that is just an example to the fact that Imperials care about things like that.

 

In Fatal Alliance, an Imperial spy risks his life (from the Sith and the Hutts) to get hold of a nav-computer so that he can give it to the Minister of Logistics rather than let the Sith have it.

 

There hasn't been any attempt to paint the Empire and Republic as black and white, and I think that BioWare has made a nice balance.

 

Doesnt really matter in the grand scheme of things when the Sith rule with an iron fist.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Sorry seems I wasn't clear enough, I didn't meant the timeline proved there wasn't enough info on mandalorian crimes, BUT that there was just enough info the crimes of the republic! Genocide: a Jedi Master admits the crime of the republic on the timeline, 3 sith high ranking npcs make reference to it ingame (Only played empire), AND there was no sith pure-blood during the kotor era. Furthermore what actually distinguished this Empire from the Kotor Empire, is the Sith Pure-blood! Proof that the extermination of the Sith Had failed.

 

The timeline isn't the only source of data.

 

THERE WAS NO GENOCIDE.

 

The data in the timeline is taken from a comic book series called "Tales of the Jedi" by Dark Horse Comics. They snipped a lot of what happened out of it. The Sith pure bloods weren't exterminated by the Republic, they were systematically exterminated by the Sith themselves.

 

They Jedi Master, Gnost Dural, in the timeline says that the Jedi and Republic committed genocide against the Sith... Well actually he doesn't say that... He specifically says that they went in to wipe out all traces of the Sith.

 

Canonically we know, however, that didn't happen.

 

What actually happened was that the Republic mounted a counter offensive and offered the Sith many chances to surrender. The Sith refused to surrender and once their military forces were depleted began attacking the Republic with suicide bombers. Once those bombers failed the Sith who didn't flee with the Emperor chose to commit ritual suicide rather than surrender.

 

That is the reason why there were no Sith purebloods.

 

The thing is Gnost Dural doesn't know about most of that because there are few records regarding what happened.

 

So the data Gnost Dural had to go on was:

 

"The Republic launched a counter attack... When they came back... The Sith were gone. They must have wiped them out."

 

The most telling evidence that the Republic didn't try to genocide the Sith is the planet of Korriban. Had the Republic and Empress Teta decided to genocide the Sith they had sufficient firepower to glass the entire surface of the planet, wipe out all of the Sith on the planet, and utterly destroy the Sith temples.

 

In game those temples are still standing and there is no evidence that anything like that was even tried.

 

Heck there were no Sith in KotOR either. Revan, Malek, Treya, Sion, and Nihilus, and such were Dark Jedi and not Sith.

 

Now as for Lord Scourge I highly disagree.... Remember that first time he faced that Lord of the council, for the human terrorist group? Remember how coutious he was, how doubtful he was? Remember that he was only convinced into killing him because Nyriss exposed how weak he REALLY was?

 

He did not feel his passions were strong enough and he was a young Sith, that is simply because he had not fallen far enough to the Dark Side, as the novel went on he gained far more confidence in his abilities. He also knew that he was having problems using the Force properly.

 

Anyways I believe the Mandalorians atleast the ingame ones, /KOTOR ones, to be nobler, more admirable than anything the corrupt decadent excuse of a republic can muster. Why can I ex-peculate that Mandalorians can say "Hey reps you can't kill PoW!" While they can? Easily because the republic believes they must not kill PoW, but not the Mandalorians. (Both of whom do it anyways.)

 

The Republic doesn't execute POWs they imprison them. Some members might break the rules but you can't blame the organization. The Republic legally doesn't do that and those who are caught doing it are punished.

[OldVengeance]

The Republic doesn't have the extreme racism and slavery of the empire either. And I fail to to see how fighting for an immortal despot is better than a democratically elected government.

[Assaultrooper]

The timeline isn't the only source of data.

 

THERE WAS NO GENOCIDE.

 

"In the aftermath of the battle, Supreme Chancellor Pultimo of the Republic ordered an invasion of Sith space. The Republic and the Jedi Order then embarked on a military expedition throughout the territories ruled by the Sith Empire, to search out all remaining Sith strongholds and destroy them. The attack was temporarily averted when Shar Dakhan ordered suicide attacks, forcing the Republic forces to retreat but many Sith killed themselves ritually, giving an advantage to the Republic fleet to win the War." http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Hyperspace_War#cite_note-TOTJC-2

 

I believe you are trying to argue with this right? First you don't commit genocide, when there are no sith left. You commit genocide by ordering the complete anhilation of a culture. Whether you succeed or not, it's the intention and some degree of action that constitute genocide. From what I see, The Republic ordered the extermination of the sith, and killed alot of them before they started in desperation using suicide bombs, at which point they choose instead to kill themselves instead of been killed by Jedi.

 

Going on from the timeline: "It is now that the republic did what now may be considered a mistake, the sith no longer posed a threat, but the Supreme Chancellor was unsatisfied. Jedi and Republic forces were sent to korriban and other planets to ensure no remnants of the sith empire remained. It was this action that drove the surviving sith to flee into deep space, with the new dark lord that rose to take Naga Sadow's place." "This is why they returned 13th centuries later to get revenge against the republic."

 

I don't any shroud of doubt on the The Master Jedi Archivist chief historian. Do you?

 

Now if you want an explanation why they didn't simply razed the korriban to the ground, COULD be that korriban they did not have the technology? (Remember Destroying planets is sooo 3000 years in the future!) And most importantly it was already destroyed. I mean the korriban you see ingame is not a beautiful craddle of a lost civilization! it looks destroyed.

 

I guess its not murder if you make them kill themselves!!! (It actually Gives you +100 LS points apparently)

 

 

He did not feel his passions were strong enough and he was a young Sith, that is simply because he had not fallen far enough to the Dark Side, as the novel went on he gained far more confidence in his abilities. He also knew that he was having problems using the Force properly.

 

Yea as the novel went on we fell so into the dark side, that he allied himself with Revan. Ok going back to the point, in sith society, at least in this sith society there is a hierarchy which is respected (Well until the Emperor is gone, but that's to be expected.) Which immediately conflicts with your argument that all sith seek to rule the galaxy. If the Sith wanted to rule the Galaxy, why would he serve under the highly organised Empire instead of trying to create their own Empire?

 

Darth Malgus says so "No sith is above the empire." (Or something like that.... Its after Athiss) That he would fall prey to that same law, funny irony. Yet you are saying that we will need to kill every sith alive to respect that law. Which is not meant to be true, nor is it.

 

 

The Republic doesn't execute POWs they imprison them. Some members might break the rules but you can't blame the organization. The Republic legally doesn't do that and those who are caught doing it are punished.

 

I used PoWs as an example, BUT lets take something worse. How about the execution of refugees? How about the extortion of army officials, BY ARMY OFFICIALS! How about the disposal of valuable and loyal soldiers to the state? (All of which you can find in if you play the trooper's first 10 levels.) Yea sure the intergalactic declaration of living thing's rights say this all shouldn't happen, what is important however is that the Republic's bureaucracy, its system, its command structure not only allow for all this to happen, BUT it even incentivise such dealings.

 

What do you see in the Imperial counter-parts however? In the Bounty Hunter Story you see a Jedi using every means available to get revenge on you, even if it means the slaughter of innocents. In the Warrior story you see the length of sith infiltration into the republic due to its own weaknesses, now IF you chose the Light Side as an Inquisitor (Which I believe will end up being the "canon") You start to see the endless possibilities the Sith Empire has to offer.

 

PS: a slave in the republic will never be Chancellor, yet a slave in The Empire (EVEN Twi'Lek) can be in the Dark Council.

 

Damn I write alot..

Edited February 20, 2012 by Assaultrooper

[ProfessorWalsh]

"In the aftermath of the battle, Supreme Chancellor Pultimo of the Republic ordered an invasion of Sith space. The Republic and the Jedi Order then embarked on a military expedition throughout the territories ruled by the Sith Empire, to search out all remaining Sith strongholds and destroy them. The attack was temporarily averted when Shar Dakhan ordered suicide attacks, forcing the Republic forces to retreat but many Sith killed themselves ritually, giving an advantage to the Republic fleet to win the War." http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Hyperspace_War#cite_note-TOTJC-2

 

That is a description of what happened yes.

 

I believe you are trying to argue with this right? First you don't commit genocide, when there are no sith left. You commit genocide by ordering the complete anhilation of a culture. Whether you succeed or not, it's the intention and some degree of action that constitute genocide. From what I see, The Republic ordered the extermination of the sith, and killed alot of them before they started in desperation using suicide bombs, at which point they choose instead to kill themselves instead of been killed by Jedi.

 

Show me in that paragraph, which is not an official source but is an interpretation of the events in the comic, where they said wipe out the Sith culture.

 

They said:

The Republic and the Jedi Order then embarked on a military expedition throughout the territories ruled by the Sith Empire, to search out all remaining Sith strongholds and destroy them.

 

Those are specifically military targets.

 

Going on from the timeline: "It is now that the republic did what now may be considered a mistake, the sith no longer posed a threat, but the Supreme Chancellor was unsatisfied. Jedi and Republic forces were sent to korriban and other planets to ensure no remnants of the sith empire remained. It was this action that drove the surviving sith to flee into deep space, with the new dark lord that rose to take Naga Sadow's place." "This is why they returned 13th centuries later to get revenge against the republic."

 

As I already explained to you, Master Dural is an in-universe source, he is not a canonical source. BioWare has admitted that Master Gnost Dural's reports are not factual and are constructed from incorrect and incomplete data. Using anything he says on its own merit is automatically discarded as factual unless other sources support it. No other sources support his comments here.

 

I don't any shroud of doubt on the The Master Jedi Archivist chief historian. Do you?

 

YES.

 

(I am using caps as emphasis.)

 

BIOWARE TOLD US HIS INFORMATION ISN'T ACCURATE OR COMPLETE. HE IS A POOR HISTORIAN AND IS MAKING ASSUMPTIONS THAT AREN'T CORRECT.

 

Now if you want an explanation why they didn't simply razed the korriban to the ground, COULD be that korriban they did not have the technology? (Remember Destroying planets is sooo 3000 years in the future!) And most importantly it was already destroyed. I mean the korriban you see ingame is not a beautiful craddle of a lost civilization! it looks destroyed.

 

Canonically in this timeline a single battle fleet can glass the surface of a planet, they can also burn off the atmosphere and render the planet uninhabitable. We also know that they actually wanted to destroy Sith technology rather than preserve it from the TOTJ comics. In fact that was the entire reason the Jedi Shadows were created, thus your theory on technology doesn't hold true.

 

I guess its not murder if you make them kill themselves!!! (It actually Gives you +100 LS points apparently)

 

We are each responsible for our own actions. The Jedi and Republic offered the Sith a chance to surrender, they chose to take their own lives the Jedi and Republic did not force their hand.

 

Yea as the novel went on we fell so into the dark side, that he allied himself with Revan. Ok going back to the point, in sith society, at least in this sith society there is a hierarchy which is respected (Well until the Emperor is gone, but that's to be expected.) Which immediately conflicts with your argument that all sith seek to rule the galaxy. If the Sith wanted to rule the Galaxy, why would he serve under the highly organised Empire instead of trying to create their own Empire?

 

Because they have enemies. They have enemies that are at the moment equally as powerful as they are. If they make a move their enemies will move en masse against them. Right now, moving against the Dark Council is foolish because they would oppose you to maintain the power they already have.

 

Interestingly however:

 

 

What you outlined, namely:

 

If the Sith wanted to rule the Galaxy, why would he serve under the highly organised Empire instead of trying to create their own Empire?

 

Is exactly what Darth Malgus in this game does.

 

 

 

Darth Malgus says so "No sith is above the empire." (Or something like that.... Its after Athiss) That he would fall prey to that same law, funny irony. Yet you are saying that we will need to kill every sith alive to respect that law. Which is not meant to be true, nor is it.

 

Again, see the spoiler above. Your argument is defeated. Every Sith wants to rule and they will go for it if they think they can.

 

 

The difference is that these things are illegal in the Republic. Yes, they happen, but are not condoned by the Republic. In the Sith Empire these things are legal, accepted, and there are no consequences for being caught doing them.

 

PS: a slave in the republic will never be Chancellor, yet a slave in The Empire (EVEN Twi'Lek) can be in the Dark Council.

 

Damn I write alot..

 

PS: There are no legal slaves in the Republic, so a Slave cannot become Chancellor as there are no slaves.

[Assaultrooper]

As I already explained to you, Master Dural is an in-universe source, he is not a canonical source. BioWare has admitted that Master Gnost Dural's reports are not factual and are constructed from incorrect and incomplete data. Using anything he says on its own merit is automatically discarded as factual unless other sources support it. No other sources support his comments here.

 

I don't see why he's credentials on this one event could be in question. I can see however how his questions/claims about certain characters (Namely Mandalor, That Jedi that went to Yavin 4) may be dubious but not this. He is the chief Jedi Historian, if you want Republic History he should be/is your prime source. He would have had access to Senate Hearings, to testimonies of republic veterans, to the reports of republic officers, as it was essentially a republic action that ended in the extermination of all Sith population in known space.

 

Your problem is that just because Bioware said Gnost Dural is biased, you take the word of a comic book over his. That he is biased does not mean either that he is a bad historian. Or that his speculative interpretations of SOME events are completely off.

 

Why should you DEFINITELY believe him when it comes to this? Simply because this, the intention of the annihilation the entire Sith CAN NOT be a product of his imagination. Why? Because if it were, he would be fired, or not been charged as Keeper of Jedi Archives.

 

Now there are tiny reference in the Imperial Side "This is revenge for what the Jedi did to our people." "They burned the temple in korriban, now we burned theirs." But what can I say? Imperials don't appreciate portraying themselves as weak.

 

Canonically in this timeline a single battle fleet can glass the surface of a planet, they can also burn off the atmosphere and render the planet uninhabitable. We also know that they actually wanted to destroy Sith technology rather than preserve it from the TOTJ comics. In fact that was the entire reason the Jedi Shadows were created, thus your theory on technology doesn't hold true.[/quote}

 

I concede on this one I have no idea how many wild huge weapons you can find on those comics..... However I can tell you a massive weapon like that would have come pretty handy in destroying Taris, instead of doing it the hard way.

 

We are each responsible for our own actions. The Jedi and Republic offered the Sith a chance to surrender, they chose to take their own lives the Jedi and Republic did not force their hand.

 

Oh yea, where did you find that the Jedi actually offered "surrender" before making every sith (Including Civilians I dont remember Sith Pureblood as slaves/workers in Kotor) magically disappear?

 

Because they have enemies. They have enemies that are at the moment equally as powerful as they are. If they make a move their enemies will move en masse against them. Right now, moving against the Dark Council is foolish because they would oppose you to maintain the power they already have.

 

Two flaws in your argument. 1st 80% of the sith I meet in-game are anxious to start the war ASAP. In fact if I am not wrong I actually DO start the war again as a Sith Warrior. Guess what I don't hear any news of the sith flinching in their loyalty, nor Mandalore.

 

Interestingly however:

 

 

What you outlined, namely:

 

If the Sith wanted to rule the Galaxy, why would he serve under the highly organised Empire instead of trying to create their own Empire?

 

Is exactly what Darth Malgus in this game does.

 

 

 

Again, see the spoiler above. Your argument is defeated. Every Sith wants to rule and they will go for it if they think they can.

 

I am not blind xD and no my Argument is not defeated I myself admitted that was happening. Yet I also know that just because one awesome Dark Lord (Whos ideas are completely revolutionary AND more light sided, quite close to Revan actually, hence actually defeating YOUR argument that all sith are evil.) Decided to rebel himself does not mean all will do so eventually. Take into consideration the Empire existed Peacefully, for centuries in Dromund Kaas, with no real enemy and most if not all it's inhabitants unaware they would one day face the "mighty republic".

 

The difference is that these things are illegal in the Republic. Yes, they happen, but are not condoned by the Republic. In the Sith Empire these things are legal, accepted, and there are no consequences for being caught doing them.

 

Irrelevant. What you are saying is, if the emperor said "Its not cool to have slave, but you can have them if Im not seeing." then the sith would Good! even Better than the Jedi! What a wonderful world, where we "believe" one thing and believe another!

 

Ok, in all seriousness though a system that nominally prohibits something, but encourages the exact opposite is evil. Atleast to me! I don't know you, it make sense to me, that what you are prophetising should be what you are doing no? Oh wait! Its a republic! meaning they can say treating refugees is a top priority, while the actual refugees are blown to pieces by republican soldiers! Argh! The good guys!

 

PS: There are no legal slaves in the Republic, so a Slave cannot become Chancellor as there are no slaves.

 

Oh, but there ARE illegal slaves, to well known politicians nonetheless. That said final point still is a low-birth "citizen" could never aspire to be a chancellor, even been a senator would be quasi-impossible. Social mobility does not exist in the republic. Yet it does in the Empire, prove yourself with skill and dedication, and you will be rewarded.

[Assaultrooper]

The Republic doesn't have the extreme racism and slavery of the empire either. And I fail to to see how fighting for an immortal despot is better than a democratically elected government.

 

Racism!? where!? I hope you are not implying my Twi'lek Dark Council Member is a slave.... Now that said, the Republic is not democratically elected I believe the senators are appointed by each planet much of whom are monarchys, oligarchys, and Tribalist Societies as far as I am aware of. I believe I saw once a democratic goverment in the clone wars series.... It was of a planet full of blue people...

 

Anyways why call it a "republic" then? The Roman Republic was just as this one Corrupt, Imperialistc, Inefficient, undemocratic, and doomed (Republic = has a constitution with debate on it thats all basically)

[skaidar]

Where is the misunderstood honorable bad guys? And don't tell me the Empire is the Horde, because the Empire is composed of selfish evil villians all trying to kill each other as well as everyone else.

 

Republic = Alliance

Empire = Burning Crusade or maybe the Scourge

 

 

I miss faction pride =(

 

Since you mention it..... you are so right...

[Clonedzero]

Just saying Genocide (The Empire has not sought the complete eradication of a species as far as I am aware), Slavery, Racism and Extreme Oppression happens in the Republic as well! Only difference in the Empire you have a purpose, while in the republic you are fighting for a bunch of senators. "Glory To the Emperor!" vs "As you say senator Organa."

 

 

on nar shadda republic side, you shut down an imperial death factory where they are killing thousands and thousands of evocai, when you take out the general in charge he says they have dozens of such facilities all over the galaxy.

 

 

there are no slaves in the republic as well, and its democracy. as in people are elected...not really oppression there buddy...

[ProfessorWalsh]

I don't see why he's credentials on this one event could be in question. I can see however how his questions/claims about certain characters (Namely Mandalor, That Jedi that went to Yavin 4) may be dubious but not this. He is the chief Jedi Historian, if you want Republic History he should be/is your prime source. He would have had access to Senate Hearings, to testimonies of republic veterans, to the reports of republic officers, as it was essentially a republic action that ended in the extermination of all Sith population in known space.

 

No. You are completely wrong in this statement:

 

He is the chief Jedi Historian, if you want Republic History he should be/is your prime source.

 

I have the comic books. I know what happened. I saw them "in real time" as it were. I know what people were thinking, I know what people were doing, I know when and how things happened. The comic books are "out of universe" reference and as such they are completely non-biased C-Canon accounts of what happened.

 

Your problem is that just because Bioware said Gnost Dural is biased, you take the word of a comic book over his. That he is biased does not mean either that he is a bad historian. Or that his speculative interpretations of SOME events are completely off.

 

No, my problem has nothing to do with the fact that he is biased (and possibly a secret Sith) but with the fact that his recollection of events directly contradicts the events that were depicted. Let me state this more clearly. Gnost Dural, in more than one incident, completely omitted entire important sections of Republic history specifically with the expressed purpose of making the Sith look better.

 

We know, from the canon that Gnost Dural is incorrect.

 

Now let me explain how the canon works and why it works.

 

If Luke Skywalker says in a novel, "Darth Vader never slaughtered any children in the Jedi Temple."

 

That doesn't remove the scene in Episode III where Vader indeed did that very act. Luke is simply wrong. He is not a "canon source" as he is not a movie, a novel, etc.

 

Gnost Dural is also not a canon source. He is a character in the universe and thus does not have access to the information we, the players, actually do.

 

Why should you DEFINITELY believe him when it comes to this? Simply because this, the intention of the annihilation the entire Sith CAN NOT be a product of his imagination. Why? Because if it were, he would be fired, or not been charged as Keeper of Jedi Archives.

 

Actually it can be the product of his imagination. This is because, according to BioWare, most of the records from the GHW are lost. Thus Gnost Dural is going off what he can find and is trying to piece information back together. The genocide is his theory, it isn't true, but historians are wrong on levels of this all the time, it is not unusual.

 

Here is a great example:

 

The Velociraptor in real life, the dinosaur, has feathers.

 

This was not discovered until about 5 years ago, however for many decades every single paleontologist knew that they were lizard like in skin and did not have feathers.

 

Now there are tiny reference in the Imperial Side "This is revenge for what the Jedi did to our people." "They burned the temple in korriban, now we burned theirs." But what can I say? Imperials don't appreciate portraying themselves as weak.

 

That is because the Emperor lied and manipulated the Sith into believing there was a genocide as a way to build and direct anger. We know this to be true because in the JK story:

 

 

We are told some of the lies that the Sith are taught. Lord Praven for example was taught that Jedi were ruthless killers who know no honor and who would never spare the life of an enemy.

 

 

Canonically in this timeline a single battle fleet can glass the surface of a planet, they can also burn off the atmosphere and render the planet uninhabitable. We also know that they actually wanted to destroy Sith technology rather than preserve it from the TOTJ comics. In fact that was the entire reason the Jedi Shadows were created, thus your theory on technology doesn't hold true.

 

I concede on this one I have no idea how many wild huge weapons you can find on those comics..... However I can tell you a massive weapon like that would have come pretty handy in destroying Taris, instead of doing it the hard way.

 

Doesn't take a massive single weapon. It only takes about 12 ships on the level of a Star Destroyer and about six hours. In Star Wars lore it is known as a Base Delta Zero.

 

Oh yea, where did you find that the Jedi actually offered "surrender" before making every sith (Including Civilians I dont remember Sith Pureblood as slaves/workers in Kotor) magically disappear?

 

Every single encounter, even those with Naga Sadow after he blew up a sun, showed the Jedi and the Republic offering the Sith a chance to surrender. We have no reason to believe that this practice was halted, and given the fact that it is part of how Jedi interact normally we must assume it as a given until otherwise shown in a C-Canon or higher source.

 

Two flaws in your argument. 1st 80% of the sith I meet in-game are anxious to start the war ASAP. In fact if I am not wrong I actually DO start the war again as a Sith Warrior. Guess what I don't hear any news of the sith flinching in their loyalty, nor Mandalore.

 

I am not blind xD and no my Argument is not defeated I myself admitted that was happening. Yet I also know that just because one awesome Dark Lord (Whos ideas are completely revolutionary AND more light sided, quite close to Revan actually, hence actually defeating YOUR argument that all sith are evil.) Decided to rebel himself does not mean all will do so eventually. Take into consideration the Empire existed Peacefully, for centuries in Dromund Kaas, with no real enemy and most if not all it's inhabitants unaware they would one day face the "mighty republic".

 

The Sith didn't exist peacefully on Dromund Kaas, read the Revan book, they conquered planets around them constantly and enslaved them pretty much the entire time.

 

Irrelevant. What you are saying is, if the emperor said "Its not cool to have slave, but you can have them if Im not seeing." then the sith would Good! even Better than the Jedi! What a wonderful world, where we "believe" one thing and believe another!

 

You cannot blame the Republic because they have a crime rate.

 

Ok, in all seriousness though a system that nominally prohibits something, but encourages the exact opposite is evil. Atleast to me! I don't know you, it make sense to me, that what you are prophetising should be what you are doing no? Oh wait! Its a republic! meaning they can say treating refugees is a top priority, while the actual refugees are blown to pieces by republican soldiers! Argh! The good guys!

 

The Republic soldiers weren't supposed to be doing that. Again you can only judge based on the law and not on the actions of people who break that law.

 

Oh, but there ARE illegal slaves, to well known politicians nonetheless. That said final point still is a low-birth "citizen" could never aspire to be a chancellor, even been a senator would be quasi-impossible. Social mobility does not exist in the republic. Yet it does in the Empire, prove yourself with skill and dedication, and you will be rewarded.

 

Actually we know that in the history of the Republic there have been a handful of low-birth senators and chancellors.

[Ausstig]

Don't bother arguing with Walsh. He focuses on a few 'facts' that support him and ignores everything else.

 

Also the Republic is built on racism and exploitation, it is a very good analogue of a blotted 20th century democracy, it says it's good, and many do try to live up to that but others don't.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Ausstig

[Clonedzero]

Don't bother arguing with Walsh. He focuses on a few 'facts' that support him and ignores everything else.

 

Also the Republic is built on racism and exploitation, it is a very good analogue of a blotted 20th century democracy, it says it's good, and many do try to live up to that but others don't.

 

yes, the republic isn't perfect. but it tries to do good.

 

the empire is irredeemably evil. to argue that is just wrong.

 

basically its like this....

 

republic, good guys with a few rotten apples in there.

 

empire, evil guys with a couple nice guys in there.