"Advanced Classes = Fundamentally Different Class Designs"

[Lenois]

okay I'm just gonna bring up a counterexample. in eq 2 you had classes in advance classes. you leveled up your class and then at level 10 you got to decide which 1 of 3 specializations you wanted to take. just because you shared abilities before 10 did not mean you the same class an assassin was hardly a bard. a paladin or shadow night was hardly a guardian.

 

did you get the change your dance class even though you had 3 options and you started out with the same class? the answer is no you did not get to change your advance class. why in this game when you have the same system do you think that the advance classes are the say they are not. advanced classes for so entirely different roles my guardian it's not the same is a sentinel. just because the story is the same does not mean that they're the same class.

[CorellianWannabe]

This is a bad justification for the classes being the same. Why you ask?

 

Because about 20% of your quest content is your class quest. The rest, between normal quests, bonus quests and bonus series, amounts to about 80% of all possible quests. This means you share 80% of quests with ALL classes on your faction.

 

Makes me wonder why story was touted as the mythical 'fourth pillar' then, if they couldn't bother to design more than a small percentage of content around it. Also makes me wonder about replayability-if 80% of the game will be the same for a same-faction alt why bother? At least in other games I have an option of a different leveling area-cosmetic sure, but not really any different from voice-acted 'kill 10 rats' or kill the storyline boss as opposed to a more generic one.

 

Did Bioware just run out of time?

[CorellianWannabe]

I'll go a step farther.

 

I quite simply don't care in the least how they did it in WoW, or any other MMO, because I'm playing SWTOR and not some other MMO.

 

How druids worked in WoW is completely meaningless when we're talking about Advanced Classes in SWTOR. Different system, different game, so it has no bearing on how things should or do work here.

 

Given how much else was lifted from WoW why not this as well?

 

Hell, dual spec should be just as bad right? FotM specs and apparently being unable to resist the peer pressure to change your toon. Down with respecs in general! All they do is encourage bad play by allowing players to either make suboptimal choices or to blatantly change their entire character on a whim! A healer should not be allowed to suddenly hurl lightning with great force-it ruins the game!

[CorellianWannabe]

There's only two AC's that do that in SWTOR, the Sentinel/Marauder and Gunslinger/Sniper. Every other AC has DPS and either Healer or Tank as an option.

 

There is IMO nothing wrong with having a pure DPS class, because some people will want to play that, because they they aren't expected to change their spec to healer or tank, depending on what the group wants.

 

 

So why would you bow to other players? Why don't you tell these people that you're not changing your role based on their wants? Do MMOs need an Assertiveness tutorial?

[CorellianWannabe]

That's a fair question.

 

I'd say my fundamental reason to be against it, is because if an option to change AC's is added, the choice no longer matters, and I believe choice should matter.

 

I would quite gladly support a one time AC respect that expired at lvl 20, because I know not everyone will not make an informed choice, or might even just click on the wrong thing by mistake.

 

So you are against respec and dual spec? After all those are choices, and choices should matter.

 

BTW a consular/inquisitor doesn't get the ability to stealth before picking their 'real class' and their ranged attacks are capped at 10m. How can that choice be 'informed'? By reading the talent spreads that often reference abilities you won't have until later levels?

[Havokk]

Why NOT allow one of those characters to shift the advanced class to Mercenary...

Possibly because that player doesn't know how to play a Mercenary.

 

I believe the final answer, however, is "this is a class-based game and in class-based games (all the way back to Basic D&D) you can't change classes".

 

I think there would be fewer issues if Bioware used the phrases "there are two classes, PowerTech and Mercenary, that share the same story, Bounty Hunter."

[aznthecapn]

Makes me wonder why story was touted as the mythical 'fourth pillar' then, if they couldn't bother to design more than a small percentage of content around it. Also makes me wonder about replayability-if 80% of the game will be the same for a same-faction alt why bother? At least in other games I have an option of a different leveling area-cosmetic sure, but not really any different from voice-acted 'kill 10 rats' or kill the storyline boss as opposed to a more generic one.

 

Did Bioware just run out of time?

 

The game was in development for 5 years or so. That's a limited scope when you build it from the ground up. Yes, they were rushed by EA to release in a "sales friendly" time frame, but it only need 3-5 more months to clean up. They would have needed a GREAT deal of time to create 8 different stories for each faction. They would also have needed a great deal more budget since so much cash was used on voice acting.

 

"Story" isn't really the mega ideal of the game. Every MMO has a story and wants it to be good. Its the voice acting that set SWTOR apart.

[chaosdefined]

I believe the final answer, however, is "this is a class-based game and in class-based games (all the way back to Basic D&D) you can't change classes".

 

Just because other games haven't done it, doesn't mean SW shouldn't either.

[MajikMyst]

[quote name='chaosdefined']Just because other games haven't done it, doesn't mean SW shouldn't either.[/QUOTE] Doesn't mean SW should have it either.. Goes both ways.. The entire idea behind classes or even specs is lost if people are allowed to change their class or specs at will.. We may as well all be the same class and the same spec.. There would be no need for alts.. One character would do it all.. If you want to change your class then roll another character.. Simple as that.. Please stop trying to turn this game into something that it was never designed to be.. Thanks.. :cool:

[chaosdefined]

Doesn't mean SW should have it either.. Goes both ways..

 

The entire idea behind classes or even specs is lost if people are allowed to change their class or specs at will.. We may as well all be the same class and the same spec..

 

There would be no need for alts.. One character would do it all..

 

If you want to change your class then roll another character.. Simple as that.. Please stop trying to turn this game into something that it was never designed to be.. Thanks..

 

Please stop opposing anything that would improve the quality of gameplay for other people. Honestly the selfishness and narrow-mindedness of other players is astounding.

 

Why does there have to be a need for Alts? Not every player likes creating them. That is one of the weakest arguments against improving this game.

 

"No, players should not be able to concentrate on one character who can fulfill multiple roles, they should be forced to play the entire game again from scratch!"

 

I'm so glad you're not a dev.

[ShavedEwok]

Personally, I believe AC's are classes in their own and you should not be able to swap them.

 

However, I can see both sides of this and I can understand that a) it's impossible to know if you'll enjoy playing an AC until you've actually tried and b) having to re-roll and play the exact same story all over again would feel extremely tedious to some.

 

IMO, I would suggest a compromise which would allow you to switch AC's two times, but no more.

 

Why two? The first swap would be for you to try out the other AC if you are not sure about the one you originally selected. The second swap would enable you to go back to the original one, in case after having tried out the second AC you do feel the first one was the better one after all.

 

It's impossible to know whether you like an AC before you've tried it, and you can't make a fair decision between the two until you've tried them both, right?

 

So, two (2) swaps should be enough as it will enable you to make a fair comparison between the AC's and allow you to pick whichever one you liked best. More than that is really not needed IMO.

 

SE

Edited March 2, 2012 by ShavedEwok

[chaosdefined]

Or even just keep hiking the price of changing your AC up more and more.

 

1st time changing, 100k credits.

Second time 500k

Third time 10,000k

 

etc

[ShavedEwok]

Or even just keep hiking the price of changing your AC up more and more.

 

1st time changing, 100k credits.

Second time 500k

Third time 10,000k

 

etc

 

Why?

 

If you wish to swap AC's more than twice, then you might as well just re-roll tbh.

 

If you made a bad call about your AC, or just couldn't decide between the two, then that's one thing and getting granted two swaps might make sense.

 

However, just being able to swap AC's just for the sake of swapping can't really be motivated as a valid necessity IMO.

 

SE

Edited March 2, 2012 by ShavedEwok

[Xothos]

I vote a huge No on AC changes. You people wanted choice, this is the biggest choice in the game.

[chaosdefined]

I vote a huge No on AC changes. You people wanted choice, this is the biggest choice in the game.

 

Actually you're contradicting yourself there. Not being able to change your AC is lack of choice.

 

And why limit it to twice? What if you change it one already then a couple of years down the line you fancy a change and so want to change it again to renew your interest in the game?

 

The argument of "just roll an Alt" doesn't hold any water. Not everyone enjoys repeating the same content for weeks.

[MajikMyst]

Actually you're contradicting yourself there. Not being able to change your AC is lack of choice..

 

Wrong.. Choice is rolling another character..

 

Choice does not mean change.. Those are two different words with different meanings..

 

You want a choice?? Roll another character.. Customization never meant changing something on the fly..

 

No to AC switcning.. There is no need for it and no arguement for it..

[Raximillian]

Actually you're contradicting yourself there. Not being able to change your AC is lack of choice.

 

And why limit it to twice? What if you change it one already then a couple of years down the line you fancy a change and so want to change it again to renew your interest in the game?

 

The argument of "just roll an Alt" doesn't hold any water. Not everyone enjoys repeating the same content for weeks.

 

And you think people would enjoy farming 1.000.000 creds for the increasing cost of your escalating AC respecs? Yeah, way more fun... :S

 

I imagine the whining that would ensue. "We have AC switch now, but I want it free", "I want dual-AC now, it's the obvious next step", etc, etc, etc. It's a slippery slope, and people will keep demanding more.

 

I would still prefer there are no AC respec at all. They are completely different classes. And using the "WoW does it with druids and paladins" is a bad argument. While WoW is the most successful MMO out there, it does not mean everything it does is right. I consider having healer/tank/DPS on a single class as a bad idea.

[chaosdefined]

And you think people would enjoy farming 1.000.000 creds for the increasing cost of your escalating AC respecs? Yeah, way more fun... :S

 

I imagine the whining that would ensue. "We have AC switch now, but I want it free", "I want dual-AC now, it's the obvious next step", etc, etc, etc. It's a slippery slope, and people will keep demanding more.

 

I would still prefer there are no AC respec at all. They are completely different classes. And using the "WoW does it with druids and paladins" is a bad argument. While WoW is the most successful MMO out there, it does not mean everything it does is right. I consider having healer/tank/DPS on a single class as a bad idea.

 

It's not a bad argument, it's a very valid one because the stat conversion, armour type and abilities change is exactly the same as changing AC.

 

Your solution to not grinding credits for the change is to grind on levelling an alt for weeks on the same content you just experienced?

 

No argument against AC is anything more than weak, narrow-minded and selfish. You don't want it because you think it'll make bad players for you to play with.

[Raximillian]

It's not a bad argument, it's a very valid one because the stat conversion, armour type and abilities change is exactly the same as changing AC.

 

Your solution to not grinding credits for the change is to grind on levelling an alt for weeks on the same content you just experienced?

 

No argument against AC is anything more than weak, narrow-minded and selfish. You don't want it because you think it'll make bad players for you to play with.

 

When did I say anything about skill? Nowhere did I mention that. I do not like it because I do not think it will add much to the game, and it will dilute the classes too much. Choices would no longer have any weight. I do understand that having options is good, so I'm all pro-dual-spec within the AC. I'm all for some kind of dungeon finding tool, etc. I understand those can help. I do not think adding AC change will help the game.

 

Leveling an alt is a lot better than grinding credits. You level him once, and that's pretty much it. Play him. get some gear, and done. Grinding credits is for ever, and it is the WORSE grind they can add to the game. Grind credits to be able to play how you want. That turns play into work. Bad idea.

[chaosdefined]

Which is why you wouldn't have a ton of people constantly switching their AC every couple of weeks.

 

How would it dilute the classes? How would it defeat the purpose of choice?

 

People keep saying this but have yet to provide any actual reasoning behind it.

 

Sure it wouldn't add anything to the game for you but it would for others.

 

I don't PvP so any changes people want for PvP I could easily go and argue against saying what's the point, it doesn't effect me so why waste time on it?

[Raximillian]

Which is why you wouldn't have a ton of people constantly switching their AC every couple of weeks.

 

How would it dilute the classes? How would it defeat the purpose of choice?

 

People keep saying this but have yet to provide any actual reasoning behind it.

 

Sure it wouldn't add anything to the game for you but it would for others.

 

I don't PvP so any changes people want for PvP I could easily go and argue against saying what's the point, it doesn't effect me so why waste time on it?

 

Of course it dilutes the classes. Assasin and sorcerer would no longer be classes, they would just be specs. We might as well just leave it as inquisitor and have the 5 talent trees in the same window. Picking one point in an assassin tree allowing dual-lightsaber, and not allowing putting points into the sorcerer tree. So yes, it does dilute them.

 

Diluting the game too much is a bad idea. What's next? Having 4 stats it's too complicated. Lets just replace willpower/aim/str/cunning for "ability". Much easier to make gear for it, and gives people more "choice"!. Let's replace all lightsabers and blasters for "weapon". Woo!! yeah, that gives people more "options"!. That's an extreme example, but that is what it tries to get to when you dilute too much.

 

I do not want that. I can agree that the spec choice at lvl 10 is not really needed, and we should have the 8 ACs as choices to start with. Still, that is not good enough reason to allow AC switching. Diluting the game in the name of offering more "choice" is not always a good idea.

[chaosdefined]

The Advanced Classes are just glorified specs though. Again there's been no argument that can justify this, most popular is "Cause Bioware said so."

 

And again you're not proving anything about diluting the class or the game, all you're saying is "If they give in to one complaint, they'll give in to them all!!" which I'm sorry, is a really weak argument.

[littleming]

Some of the points made in arguing for AC switching don't make much sense to me.

 

One argument is that for guilds that need a player to fill a roll, it sucks to have to level another character. Okay, I get that, but if you have 8 people, and 1 leaves, you now have 7 and you still have to fill that spot.

 

Secondly, the game has 3 classes that can end-game tank, 3 classes that can end-game heal, and every class is capable of playing DPS.

 

You don't -need- to change your AC, nor do you have to play through the same story to get an alternative character for filling a roll. Each player in your 'small guild' only needs to level 2 characters. One that is capable of Tanking and DPS, and one that is capable of Healing and DPS.

 

This leaves them with a vast variety of options on which two classes they want to level without having to play through the same storyline. In addition to that, players will soon be able to dual-spec. Meaning that, they can swap from tank to dps, or vice versa depending on the group needs. As well, healers can do the same. Swap from dps to heals or back.

 

To me, this argument that AC swapping is a 'quality of life' issue, doesn't hold water. What I am hearing more, is that each class needs to be optimized better to be viable end-game characters so it does not matter if you have a Operative healer instead of a Sorcerer. There should be no 'optimal best in slot class'. So, I vote for class optimization over AC swapping.

Edited March 2, 2012 by littleming

[MajikMyst]

How would it dilute the classes? How would it defeat the purpose of choice?

 

People keep saying this but have yet to provide any actual reasoning behind it.

 

The reasoning behind it is simple.. Right now there are 16 classes, counting both republic and empire.. AC swapping reduces the individual classes essentually to 8 or 50% less..

 

The point of classes is individuality.. If a Jedi Knight can switch back and forth from Guardian and Sentinel.. There is little reason to have the two AC classes in the first place.. Which would be one of the next arguements..

 

It was a design decision to have it so that no one class can both tank or heal.. So They are either tank and DPS, heals and DPS, or DPS and DPS.. No class can both tank and heal.. AC swapping would break that design rule that Bioware made..

 

You arguement is all about easy and all about 1 character doing it all.. My only response is that perhaps you should go play Halo or MW3 or something.,. Where one character does it all.. I happen to like a choice, and I happen to like my choices to mean something. I like making alts.. They are fun in of themselves.. I like leveling them again.. Each class give a new twist to what you have already done before..

 

I am sorry you don't like leveling an alt.. But that in noway means they should ruin the game to accomodate a few players.. Yes it is only a few.. See this thread if you don't believe me..

[Raximillian]

The Advanced Classes are just glorified specs though. Again there's been no argument that can justify this, most popular is "Cause Bioware said so."

 

And again you're not proving anything about diluting the class or the game, all you're saying is "If they give in to one complaint, they'll give in to them all!!" which I'm sorry, is a really weak argument.

 

Really? sure, they are different specs because an assasin plays just like a sorcerer. Same rotations, same skills, just a couple of different abilities... oh wait... Ok, ok, then let's look at the sniper and operative. They both play the same, same rotations, same skills, just a few different... oh wait...

 

They are different classes. COMPLETELY different classes. You do not seem to understand what "spec" means. It means "specialization". It does not mean "redefinition". A spec is just something to boost a specific playstyle of your class. It does not mean it CHANGES your class. Specs and classes should be kept separate, or, as I already stated, it DILUTES the game. And I know WoW does it with druids and paladins, but I still consider it a bad idea.

 

And yeah, giving in to one demand will empower the "demandee" to demand more. That's the way things work.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Raximillian