"Advanced Classes = Fundamentally Different Class Designs"

[AzKnc]

Yes they would. That's not really something that can be disputed. If the option exists people will be expected to use it.

 

You can say yes as much as you like dude, but the reasons in my reply and well.. wow's reality beg to differ.

 

There are people playing wow without dual spec and they do just fine. Ie, not affected. Fact.

[tazdirector]

Inquisitors and Hunters now have 3 roles they can fill vs 2 roles of Warrior and Agent. The more versatile classes will be in more demand to exclusion of others as well as stealing loot from others. And you know this will happen.

 

I think that's a concern more based in speculation than in reality.

 

In WoW, you didn't see raid teams full of ALL Druids or ALL Paladins. The primary reason: every class brings about a different set of buffs/debuffs that help the team overall.

 

Bioware has planned accordingly and given each CORE class (not AC by the way), it's own set of buffs and debuffs to promote diversity among operation team roster.

 

About the paid change, no thanks. And nobody here is asking to change because of a mistake, people want to be allowed to change for guild/raid balance issues, utility, preference to play a single character and not having to roll 2 to play what are basically just different specs. Nobody wants to change "because they made a mistake".

 

Exactly.

 

They are different classes. A sorc and an assasin play completely different, have different resources, different skills, etc. Using the "repeated" storyline as an excuse is pretty weak too.

 

Wouldn't you also say that a BODYGUARD Mercenary and an ARSENAL Mercenary play differently? Or what about a DARKNESS Assassin and a DECEPTION Assassin (last I checked, tanks don't stand behind bosses too often).

 

And in reality, don't both Sorcerers and Assassins use Force as their resource? And Marauders and Juggernauts use Rage as their resource?

 

And yes, while the different ACs do have different skills within their specialization, they also share the EXACT same Core Skills.

 

And...oh please, once again, read my posts and link to where my "excuse" is a "repeated storyline".

Edited February 16, 2012 by tazdirector

[VanorDM]

By your reasoning, a feral druid

 

How a class in a different MMO works is simply not in any way meaningful to how the classes in this MMO work. So the fact that druids exist in WoW means nothing in this discussion.

[VanorDM]

You can say yes as much as you like dude, but the reasons in my reply and well.. wow's reality beg to differ.

 

So can you, and I'm pretty sure people in WoW are effected, if they play a priest and don't have a healer spec then they are going to have issues finding groups looking for a healer, if they don't agree to change it.

 

So yeah, they are effected, because of what people around them will expect them to do.

 

Allow people to change classes, and I define Class based on what Bioware has said is a class, and you remove options and choice from the game, period.

Edited February 16, 2012 by VanorDM

[VanorDM]

And yes, while the different ACs do have different skills within their specialization, they also share the EXACT same Core Skills.

 

No they do not share the same Core skills. They share some skills, but the core skills on my Guardian are not the same as the core skills on a Sentinel.

 

But based on that logic, you should be able to conver a Warlock into a Mage in WoW because they use the same basic mechanics, same mana system, same armor, ect...

[Raximillian]

By your reasoning, a feral druid, a balance druid, and a resto druid, are 3 different classes, they play completly differently and use different resources and mechanic.

 

The only thing that makes a druid a single class with 3 specs, and a swtor class a class with two other similar classes within that can't be respecced, is a TERRIBLE design choice.

 

Yes, I would consider them a different class. I do not like how they work in WoW. I do like how they work in here. A healer mercenary, and a DPS mercenary pretty much work the same way, they just have a few different abilities, and talents to make those abilities work (heat reduction, more efficiency, etc). So a healer merc and a DPS merc still feels like the same class.

 

That does not happen in WoW. A feral druid and a boomkin feel like completely different classes. And they play completely different as well. Blizzard also has 3 times as many headaches trying to balance them, and run into 3 times as many issues.

[AzKnc]

'

 

So can you, and I'm pretty sure people in WoW are effected, if they don't have a healer spec then they are going to have issues finding groups looking for a healer, if they don't agree to change it.

 

And HOW does that affect you exactly? Without ac switching you wouldn't be able to find groups looking for the role you cannot perform, while with ac switching you wouldn't be able to find groups looking for the role you CHOSE to not perform.

 

The only difference there is that in the first scenario you simply can't join that group, in the second one you chose not to.

 

Maybe it's time to start making some sense and rethink your arguments carefully?

 

Also i find this rather amusing

Allow people to change classes, and I define Class based on what Bioware has said is a class, and you remove options and choice from the game, period.

If bioware came to me with an apple and told me it was a coconut, i'd say Nope. It's an apple. When faced with a terribly retarded design choice, i'd rather point out its stupidity than embrace it.

Edited February 16, 2012 by AzKnc

[tazdirector]

Yes they would. That's not really something that can be disputed. If the option exists people will be expected to use it.

 

I'm not quite certain why allowing people options to change is viewed so negatively. At present, we ARE allowed to change Talent Trees within an AC and yet no one seems to have an issue with that.

 

Let me ask the same question in a different light: Let's say, for example, that Carnage Marauder DPS was the FotM for operations. Annihilation Marauders would be expected to re-spec to Carnage for their operation team (or at least try it to see the difference).

 

Is it wrong to ask players to try and maximize their characters IF (please note the emphasis) they are involved in end-game activities where sometimes, every percentage of HP, DPS, avoidance/defense or HPS can be the difference?

 

Again...using my foundation that ACs are simply another layer of Talent Tree specialization, why not allow players to change from (for example) Marauder Carnage DPS to Juggernaut Vengeance DPS and how is that a completely negative outcome?

 

By the way, in my research, I've discovered areas in which DPS rotations between ACs are similar and, in some cases, IDENTICAL (as shown below):

 

Let's compare AOE DPS rotations (from Sithwarrior.com) Between a MARAUDER ANNIHILATION spec and a JUGGERNAUT VENGEANCE spec:

 

MARAUDER ANNIHILATION:

1. Sundering Assault
   
2. Assault
   
3. Smash
   
4. Sweeping Slash
   

 

JUGGERNAUT VENGEANCE:

1. Sundering Assault
   
2. Assault
   
3. Smash
   
4. Sweeping Slash
   

 

I've was going to highlight the abilities shared between the two DIFFERENT ACs and then realized the rotation was the same.

 

For all of those claiming I'm asking for a Rogue to become a Mage, please show me a rotation between those different CORE CLASSES and note ONE ABILITY that is shared between them.

 

No they do not share the same Core skills. They share some skills, but the core skills on my Guardian are not the same as the core skills on a Sentinel.

 

It's probably an issue of semantics. Let me clarify, open you skill panel and you will have a window that looks like this:

 

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3Ta1UGnzXz8/TZ9ubDsdcJI/AAAAAAAAEkA/06acJ2-fO2A/s1600/swtor+abilities.png

 

At the bottom you have three tabs, General, CORE Class, AC. Last I checked (and I'll be honest, I haven't reached 50 on both my Warriors), both my Juggernaut AND Marauder train the EXACT SAME skills in the CORE Class tab.

 

But based on that logic, you should be able to conver a Warlock into a Mage in WoW because they use the same basic mechanics, same mana system, same armor, ect...

 

The logic I'm using is that a Sith Warrior Juggernaut and a Sith Warrior Marauder train the EXACT SAME Core Skills (Force Leap, Sweeping Strikes, Smash, etc).

 

Not only do they train them, they use them in their rotation. Not similar abilities, not the same idea, the EXACT same ability. I'm only comparing abilities when they are EXACTLY the same. I am NOT saying all melee classes are the same or all ranged DPS classes are they same. They are not when they do NOT share the exact same abilities.

 

Warlocks and Mages do NOT train the EXACT SAME core skills, so I am not promoting the ability to change CORE Classes, but specs within a CORE class.

 

A healer mercenary, and a DPS mercenary pretty much work the same way, they just have a few different abilities, and talents to make those abilities work (heat reduction, more efficiency, etc). So a healer merc and a DPS merc still feels like the same class.

 

But let's be certain, we're not saying it's okay as long as classes "feel like the same class". As I noted above, Annihilation Marauders and Vengeance Juggernauts not only "feel like the same" rotation in AOE situations, they are the EXACT same rotation. And yet, they are in different classes?

 

My argument is no...they are in different "specializations" within a Core Class or, as I've noted earlier, simply another tier of Talent Tree selections, but NOT an entirely separate class like Mages to Rogues or Priests to Warriors. These examples fail to meet the "same class definition" since they do not share a SINGLE shared ability nor a SINGLE shared talent tree.

Edited February 16, 2012 by tazdirector

[Raximillian]

I have not played a sith warrrior. I have played with snipers and operatives, and assassins/sorcs. And they are vastly different. If that only shows with sith warrior, or jedi knights, then BW did a bad job with those advanced classes... Still I do not think AC switching is the solution for that...

[Icebergy]

 

While I've tried to avoid the WoW-comparisons, I'll answer a spade with a spade. In truth, I can see where the comparisons are being drawn regarding a rogue to a mage (i.e. an Assassin and Sorcerer). Instead (again, staying with the WoW-analogy here), I'm asking to allow players (specifically at end-game), the opportunity to change from a Retribution Paladin to a Protection Paladin or even (closer to the mage/rogue change) from an Enhancement Shaman to a Elemental Shaman.

 

 

This is already in game. I am free to respec between Defense and Vigilance as many times as I want on my JK.

[VanorDM]

I'm not quite certain why allowing people options to change is viewed so negatively.

 

Because a meaningless choice is not a choice at all. Allowing people to change classes will have the effect of removing choice from the game, by making it meaningless. It's really as simple as that.

 

Put the option in, and you are forcing the option on everyone, because people will be expected to use it. If I'm playing a DPS shadow, and the group can't find a healer, there will be cases where I'm expected change my AC to Sage and heal for the OP.

 

This is simply irrefutable, because it already happens. Play a DPS sage and you will be asked to change to a heal spec if a healer can't be found.

 

Add in dual spec's and it will become all the more common.

 

At present, we ARE allowed to change Talent Trees within an AC and yet no one seems to have an issue with that.

 

Actually I think that's a bad design, one started by WoW to make the game easier. I much preferred the CoH method myself. That required at least when I played, that you finish a fairly long and difficult trial with at least 6 other people to be able to respec your character. You were also limited to 3 respec's for the life of your character IIRC.

 

IMO SWTOR would of been better off if they had put more limits on how often and what was required to change your spec.

[tazdirector]

I have not played a sith warrrior. I have played with snipers and operatives, and assassins/sorcs. And they are vastly different. If that only shows with sith warrior, or jedi knights, then BW did a bad job with those advanced classes... Still I do not think AC switching is the solution for that...

 

I do agree that the Sith Warrior/Jedi Knight ACs seem much closer than other ACs. But even within the Bounty Hunter class, both DPS Mercs and DPS PowerTechs use the exact same abilities Death from Above and Explosive Dart in their AoE rotations.

 

When I see these EXACT same abilities used across ACs within the same CORE CLASS, I am absolutely convinced that at it's basis, the Class division is at the FOUR Core Classes and everything else is a specialization from that point.

 

As many have pointed out, If they were truly meant to be wholly and separate classes, we would have selected these ACs at the Character Selection screen and the different ACs would NOT share the same Core abilities and rotations (in some circumstances).

 

Add to this, Bioware's admitting (just four months ago) that it's "very possible that somewhere down the line we find that we want to give people the flexibility of switching ACs" only further's my belief that the system is there, but simply "turned off" right now.

 

This is simply irrefutable, because it already happens. Play a DPS sage and you will be asked to change to a heal spec if a healer can't be found.

Add in dual spec's and it will become all the more common.

 

In the case you've outlined below, those players who don't want to heal, don't have to! No one is being forced to re-spec now no more than they would be forced to change ACs.

 

I'm sorry, as much as I enjoy debating this with you, I feel like you're argument is flawed with Bioware has already allowed re-specing within the AC and the issue that you state as such a negative is ALREADY a possibility in the game.

Edited February 16, 2012 by tazdirector

[Raximillian]

Yeah, it may have been better to make them completely separate from the start, even if they share the same story. Anyway, it's down to personal opinion for me. I would not like to see AC switching, but if they add it in the future, I would not lose any sleep over it anyways.

[VanorDM]

As many have pointed out, If they were truly meant to be wholly and separate classes, we would have selected these ACs at the Character Selection screen

 

That's not true at all, this same system has been used in other MMO's before. It's not something that Bioware came up with. Other games have had you play a basic class for X levels then switch into a Advanced Class based on your basic class.

 

The way WoW did it, is not the only way to do a class based system.

 

only further's my belief that the system is there, but simply "turned off" right now.

 

No they made it quite clear that the system did not exist in the game at launch and they had no intention of adding it at or even shortly after launch. They said they would consider it based on player feedback.

[Pravis]

And HOW does that affect you exactly? Without ac switching you wouldn't be able to find groups looking for the role you cannot perform, while with ac switching you wouldn't be able to find groups looking for the role you CHOSE to not perform.

 

The only difference there is that in the first scenario you simply can't join that group, in the second one you chose not to.

 

Maybe it's time to start making some sense and rethink your arguments carefully?

 

Also i find this rather amusing

 

If bioware came to me with an apple and told me it was a coconut, i'd say Nope. It's an apple. When faced with a terribly retarded design choice, i'd rather point out its stupidity than embrace it.

 

You keep using ridiculous comparisons and have yet to give a valid reason for changing AC other than "I rolled a mage and now I want to be a priest to help fill raid spots but don't want to roll an alt".

 

You can state you don't like the design by BW to allow players to get a feel for a class before finalizing at level 10, which is fine, but you can't expect everything to be handed to you on a silver plate because you want it without giving enough evidence that the system is flawed. As it stands your posts come across as entitled whining.

[tazdirector]

You keep using ridiculous comparisons and have yet to give a valid reason for changing AC other than "I rolled a mage and now I want to be a priest to help fill raid spots but don't want to roll an alt".

 

Sometimes I just have to laugh. In some circumstances, I think this whole conversation would be a ton more fun over a pitcher of beer.

 

Please re-read my previous three posts and note the following places where I specifically draw a line between a mage to priest switch and a class that has the same rotation.

 

I will toss you the same challenge:

 

For all of those claiming I'm asking for a Mage to become a Priest, please show me a rotation between those two different CORE CLASSES and note ONE ABILITY that is shared between them that is called the EXACT same thing, does the EXACT same animation and uses the EXACT same resources.

 

You will not find one.

 

And yet, in SWTOR, these two different "classes" have the same rotation in AOE situations: Marauder Annihilation Spec and Juggernaut Vengeance Spec.

 

So please stop saying that I'm asking for a mage to become a priest or a warlock to become a rogue or a bunny to become a Ferrari when I am clearly drawing a distinction.

Edited February 16, 2012 by tazdirector

[VanorDM]

I'm sorry, as much as I enjoy debating this with you, I feel like you're argument is flawed with Bioware has already allowed re-specing within the AC and the issue that you state as such a negative is ALREADY a possibility in the game.

 

If I thought there was any possibility of my idea gaining traction, I'd gladly try and push for it. But I know that people would be against it so I don't bother. If it were up to me, I'd require something a lot more difficult then paying between 0 and X credits to change my spec.

 

But that is a completely different thing then changing classes. Changing Spec != Changing Class.

 

Symantec arguments don't change how the system works, or offer valid reasons for why it should change.

[tazdirector]

Symantec arguments don't change how the system works, or offer valid reasons for why it should change.

 

Completely agree.

 

But I can't help but believe that you're primary reasoning AGAINST allowing ACs is due to a concern that allowing players to change ACs will create an environment that already exists within this game: whereby players will be asked to change ACs (or EVEN Talent Tree specs within an AC) if the need arises.

 

Oddly enough, this is exact situation that will arise and some (I'd even say alot) of players would be more than willing to make the change if it helps out a team, guild or *gasp* PUG group succeed in their common goal of defeating an end-game boss.

 

As you seem to mention in your most recent post, you seem to have an issue with the current ability to re-spec as it exists in the current system.

 

If that's the case, would it not be more prudent to take up a separate argument against that specific issue, rather than fight against a new suggestion that simply builds on the current system?

Edited February 16, 2012 by tazdirector

[FalmeseReb]

Its that way in every mmo. If you want to play an assassin with different story play a shadow. Otherwise qq.

[VanorDM]

In some circumstances, I think this whole conversation would be a ton more fun over a pitcher of beer.

 

Pretty much everything is more fun with a pitcher of beer is involved.

 

And yet, in SWTOR, these two different "classes" have the same rotation in AOE situations: Marauder Annihilation Spec and Juggernaut Vengeance Spec.

 

However I would say that the above is not justification for allowing you to change one into the other, because while they may share a few powers, that doesn't mean that they are the same thing over all.

 

A Powertech speced for DPS will play differently then a Merc spected for DPS.

[tazdirector]

However I would say that the above is not justification for allowing you to change one into the other, because while they may share a few powers, that doesn't mean that they are the same thing over all.

 

A Powertech speced for DPS will play differently then a Merc spected for DPS.

 

Yes, that cannot be denied.

 

HOWEVER, every talent spec will play differently though, even within an AC.

 

Within the Marauder trees, Annihilation Spec vs Carnage Specs play differently.

 

Within the Mercenary trees, Bodyguard vs Arsenal specs play VASTLY different.

 

Maybe I haven't been completely clear: the image that I have is that every CORE CLASS has four Talent Trees. For example, the Sith Warrior truly has Immortal, Vengeance, Annihilation and Carnage.

 

All play differently and yet ALL of the specs use the EXACT same abilities as part of their rotation. All Sith Warriors, regardless of AC or Talent spec will use Battering Assault and Assault to gain the EXACT SAME resource: Rage.

I know I harp on the Sith Warriors, but it's within this Class that I find it most evident.

 

By restricting AC changing, you are simply removing half of the talent trees and I, for one, don't think that's the best usage now and especially in end-game.

Edited February 16, 2012 by tazdirector

[VanorDM]

As you seem to mention in your most recent post, you seem to have an issue with the current ability to re-spec as it exists in the current system.

 

I do, but I only mentioned it in reference to the point you made about it being in game already. I'm not going to champion the cause to get respecs removed from the game.

[Lauski]

@ VanorDM: I see the reason for your concern, but I mean, at the end of the day, people do what they want to do with the tools and options that are given to them.

 

I remember in WoW (I was in an active guild then) so-and-so was known to only DPS, so-and-so was collecting gear for two specs.

 

Some guilds have problems actually where they DON'T want you collecting gear for two specs. Some encourage it. Again, this comes down to people, and choice.

 

 

More options. More choice.

 

 

I like where you're coming from on impact and gravity of decisions. This is cool stuff. But, it already is so watered down. Everyone wants to be the best and everyone wants to be perfect. So devs in MMOs at some point have allowed respec'ing, dual spec'ing and etc. for whatever reasons. It's the way it is.

 

*Edit: The desire of players to be perfect and having options to "redo" the otherwise permanent choices led to the normal "state" of MMO systems as they are, in the present day.

 

 

And you can trust me when I say I'm really fine with a "harder" version of things. I've deleted my character in a little old MMO called Asheron's Call. It took me a year to hit level 40. I deleted the character since I had gimped myself with character creation choices that were too big to ignore and I wanted to keep my special name, Lauski.

 

 

But still. The industry has moved to where it is and I'm fine with that. Given that state, changing AC's makes just about as much sense... for all the reasons Taz and supporters have provided. It makes sense to me.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Lauski

[Pravis]

For all of those claiming I'm asking for a Mage to become a Priest, please show me a rotation between those two different CORE CLASSES and note ONE ABILITY that is shared between them that is called the EXACT same thing, does the EXACT same animation and uses the EXACT same resources.

 

You will not find one.

 

And yet, in SWTOR, these two different "classes" have the same rotation in AOE situations: Marauder Annihilation Spec and Juggernaut Vengeance Spec.

 

So please stop saying that I'm asking for a mage to become a priest or a warlock to become a rogue or a bunny to become a Ferrari when I am clearly drawing a distinction.

 

I saw your example and you decided to only look at a couple abilities. If i am specced a particular way and have 8 abilities and 3 are shared in rotation with the other AC who specs s very particular way, that does not mean i can pull out those 3 abilities alone and make a false claim. I've played powertech, and I've played merc....vastly different. I have a marauder and am leveling a juggernaut....and your example is not representative of the ACs.

 

 

Based off this discussion I'd rather see BW make the change to lock in your AC at character creation so ican stop seeing requests like this.

[VanorDM]

Maybe I haven't been completely clear: the image that I have is that every CORE CLASS has four Talent Trees. For example, the Sith Warrior truly has Immortal, Vengeance, Annihilation and Carnage.

 

I understand what you're saying. However you are also picking the one example that has the two AC's that are most like each other, The Sith Warrior/Jedi Knight AC's are quite similar to each other.

 

However if you go to the Jedi Knight section you will see they still play quite differently from each other. People pick different companions for the two AC's because as a Defense Guardian I don't need Doc, Kira does better for me. But a DPS Sentinel would never do that because they need Doc.

 

There's also many powers that are not shared between the two. Sentinels for example are post quite often about not having something like Force Push and how they want something like that.

 

Then look at the Shadow/Sage, those two AC's are more different from each other then many classes in WoW. Even their shared spec is different between the two AC's.

 

So while I understand what you're saying, I don't believe having a case where you have 5 spec's per base class is a good design. Or at the very least would work now, if it set up that way from the start, and as a Knight I could pick from 5 specs, 2 Guardian specs, 2 Sentinal Specs and then the shared one...

 

Well that would of been a different game then what we're currently playing. It's also not what you're really asking for, because if you switch from Guardian to Sentinel you still lose out on 2 of the 5 possible specs.