"Advanced Classes = Fundamentally Different Class Designs"

[tazdirector]

There's a reason mods closed the last threads about this and linked the devs saying they have no plans to implement AC changing. You're beating a dead horse and all these arguments are the same words said differently. Its not coming any time soon.

 

And they may lock this thread as well...but as long as new folks keep bringing up the same issue, there's an opportunity for us to enlighten the community and the devs. I think it's good for Bioware and the community that we have this forum to present new ideas, discuss problems, bugs and even tell Bioware when they're wrong sometimes.

 

Just look at how quickly they back-tracked on fixing the "fix" for the GCD UI. It just goes to show that just because the devs say one thing now, doesn't mean it isn't possible for the future.

[Lokiliesmith]

And they may lock this thread as well...but as long as new folks keep bringing up the same issue, there's an opportunity for us to enlighten the community and the devs. I think it's good for Bioware and the community that we have this forum to present new ideas, discuss problems, bugs and even tell Bioware when they're wrong sometimes.

 

Just look at how quickly they back-tracked on fixing the "fix" for the GCD UI. It just goes to show that just because the devs say one thing now, doesn't mean it isn't possible for the future.

 

Except these threads are met with overwhelming disapproval, constant down votes and consistent mockery. You aren't "enlightening" anyone. You have an opinion based upon your desire to play the FotM class more readily than is currently available. Others are concerned with things like game balance and the sustainability of the system. You've taken the idea that what you want is what is best as a foregone conclusion. It isn't. It's a stupid idea, the majority of people weighing in on the issue have said as much since the first time it was brought up, and your crappy reasoning isn't winning anyone else over.

 

I don't understand where the disconnect is. Sometimes you have an idea that sounds great to you but is actually a turd. No matter how much you polish that turd it doesn't turn into a diamond. We aren't talking about something revolutionary, either. It's a very simple concept that you are suggesting. It just happens to be a very unpopular one as well. Everyone understands what you want. They understand your reasoning. They understand the benefits as you have laid them out. And they have weighed them against the dozens of counter arguments they have presented you with and decided that your idea sucks, the same way they did the first 20 times it was suggested.

 

We get it. You don't want to do the class missions over again. If you frame the ACs in a kind of "Ship of Theseus" manner they aren't really so different after all. Play style doesn't denote class. Sometimes people just want a taste of a different flavor. It's the same as respeccing from Holy to Prot in WoW! Blah, blah, blah. It's the same crap spit out over and over again. And you always get the same responses:

 

1) ACs are unique enough to constitute different classes. There is ability overlap, for sure, but no more than would be in any other MMO between two otherwise entirely different classes.

 

2) Allowing swaps between ACs would lead to a sharp decline in the player population of the "lesser" class, no matter how negligible the difference between the two was, because people will always min-max toward FotM.

 

3) The play styles are vastly different between ACs with the arguable exception of Mar/Jug/Sent/Guard.

 

4) Considering Ops is more like Sin than it is Sniper you could just as easily slide down the slope and allow full class respecs, which is obviously ludicrous on its face but actually makes more sense than most AC respecs.

 

etc., etc., etc.

[Pravis]

What's funny is that if you had to choose your AC at character creation screen those crying now wouldn't be posting. BW tries to do something a little different by giving you 10 levels to try the feel of the class, resource management, some shared abilities before you lock in your choice.

 

So when BW GIVES you more control and choices people are upset? I kind of knew I wanted to be a tank but wasn't sure what style to choose from so I made a hunter and warrior to check out the mechanics. Hunter was more my playstyle so I chose powertech and my warrior wend marauder.

 

Id be angry if I locked in my choice at creation which is what a lot of these people crying want.

[Lauski]

Except these threads are met with overwhelming disapproval, constant down votes and consistent mockery. You aren't "enlightening" anyone. You have an opinion based upon your desire to play the FotM class more readily than is currently available. Others are concerned with things like game balance and the sustainability of the system. You've taken the idea that what you want is what is best as a foregone conclusion. It isn't. It's a stupid idea, the majority of people weighing in on the issue have said as much since the first time it was brought up, and your crappy reasoning isn't winning anyone else over.

 

I don't understand where the disconnect is. Sometimes you have an idea that sounds great to you but is actually a turd. No matter how much you polish that turd it doesn't turn into a diamond. We aren't talking about something revolutionary, either. It's a very simple concept that you are suggesting. It just happens to be a very unpopular one as well. Everyone understands what you want. They understand your reasoning. They understand the benefits as you have laid them out. And they have weighed them against the dozens of counter arguments they have presented you with and decided that your idea sucks, the same way they did the first 20 times it was suggested.

 

We get it. You don't want to do the class missions over again. If you frame the ACs in a kind of "Ship of Theseus" manner they aren't really so different after all. Play style doesn't denote class. Sometimes people just want a taste of a different flavor. It's the same as respeccing from Holy to Prot in WoW! Blah, blah, blah. It's the same crap spit out over and over again. And you always get the same responses:

 

1) ACs are unique enough to constitute different classes. There is ability overlap, for sure, but no more than would be in any other MMO between two otherwise entirely different classes.

 

2) Allowing swaps between ACs would lead to a sharp decline in the player population of the "lesser" class, no matter how negligible the difference between the two was, because people will always min-max toward FotM.

 

3) The play styles are vastly different between ACs with the arguable exception of Mar/Jug/Sent/Guard.

 

4) Considering Ops is more like Sin than it is Sniper you could just as easily slide down the slope and allow full class respecs, which is obviously ludicrous on its face but actually makes more sense than most AC respecs.

 

etc., etc., etc.

 

 

 

Are you talking about the "overwhelming response" in other threads? I mean here and I've read every post here... it's about 3 on 3 by my count of people that have weighed in somewhat regularly. And, we were having a discussion.

 

[-100 LightSide] to you for taking it up notch to the "attack" level with this post at the OP. I was a little surprised to see this come from you given your discussion up to that point.

 

 

If you're right and the community as a whole isn't in favor of this idea, too bad then (for us that want the change*), no problem. You too, should accept that whatever Bioware decides to do in this game be it popular or not as part of the game. Partake in what you will, and if the game as a whole loses appeal, then play something else.

 

But always be respectful of one another in the community. The General Forums have enough negative energy for the entire forums.

 

 

NINJAEDIT*

Edited February 16, 2012 by Lauski

[Pravis]

If you're right and the community as a whole isn't in favor of this idea, too bad then (for us that want the change*), no problem. You too, should accept that whatever Bioware decides to do in this game be it popular or not as part of the game. Partake in what you will, and if the game as a whole loses appeal, then play something else.

 

*

what's funny is that BW did make a decision. So you can't accept their decision but you want him to if BW changes their mind?

[Johnnykat]

This is an exact reason NOT to have it. When people swap randomly because of a nerf or buff or a perceived slight to their class by the developers it damages the continuity of the game. There are builds for a Gunslinger that are less reliant on cover. They are a little more hybridized but if that's how you want to play, try them. Demanding to change your class entirely on a whim isn't justification for the system. Learn to play the Scoundrel as you level. Instead of only 80% of the story being the same (non-class questing) 100% is the same.

 

And yes, you do have the time. Your time is not a known finite unless you're terminally ill. It may take you a while but you'll get that class to max level eventually.

 

I should of clarified - I thought I did so by explaining that I tried multiple Gunslinger specs - I did try each skill tree and hibreds, the fact remains that the bread and butter of the Gunslinger class does depend on going into "cover." And, it's clear based on reaching 50 and almost 60 valor, this isn't a knee jerk response to my decision of Gunslinger. I clearly have played it long enough and tested it long enough AND it is the EXACT reason why a player should have to reselect the Advance class. AFTER, you have exhausted all your options within an advance class and given the dev team over 2 months to fix the bug. If it was a minor bug it wouldn't be such a hassle, but again...the Gunslinger's main function (DPS) is borked by this bug. I really don't know how you interpreted "a whim" from my previous explanation, but hopefully this clarifies it further in case a dev read it and misinterpreted it too.

 

Thanks

[Lauski]

what's funny is that BW did make a decision. So you can't accept their decision but you want him to if BW changes their mind?

 

 

Come on now. It's a suggestion form. You want to turn it off?

 

I agree with the OP, but I'm fine if the idea isn't implemented, I said that.

 

 

 

Let's not badger one another. That was the main point of that post.

[VanorDM]

I'm grateful to you, VanorDM and many others who've been able to keep this to a discussion, not a trollfest of ugliness.

 

Thank you. And I will return the complement, because you have been quite civil and willing to discuss the issue without it turning into some sort of flame war.

 

I personally enjoy a good debate and have, and will continue to play Devils Advocate just for the sake of keeping a good debate going.

 

Now I will fully admit that it is possible that the Dev's will change their mind on this issue down the road, and I will allow that I might even change mine. However until then I will continue to point out why I think this AC switching is a bad idea, if for no other reason then to provide examples to the Dev's of people who don't want it.

[tazdirector]

It's a stupid idea, the majority of people weighing in on the issue have said as much since the first time it was brought up, and your crappy reasoning isn't winning anyone else over.

 

Let's try and keep this discussion free of attacks if possible...we've all done an admirable job of it so far. If you don't agree with my idea or reasoning, that's fine.

 

You have an opinion based upon your desire to play the FotM class more readily than is currently available

 

Please state where my desire is to play the FotM class? If you re-read ALL of my posts, my PRIMARY reasoning is to provide flexibility for end-game PVE guilds that WILL face team roster issues in the future, specifically related to losing players to RL who fulfill key role (i.e. Tank and Heals). That's not a FotM issue...that's an issue of allowing a team to continue where it would otherwise have to PUG or wait for another player to level a new toon from scratch. And in the latter case, it isn't so much for the player having to re-level, but the 7 other folks who's operation progress has been stalled.

 

We get it. You don't want to do the class missions over again.

 

If you re-read my posts, you will realize that I have never stated anything to the effect of NOT wanting to re-level, do class missions, etc. In fact, in more than one post, you'll see my affinity for alts and my vast enjoyment in this game's solo-leveling content and story. My posts have nothing to do with a lack of desire to re-level, but instead providing end-game PVE players the flexibility to change for the betterment or survival of an operations-team.

 

And they have weighed them against the dozens of counter arguments they have presented you with and decided that your idea sucks, the same way they did the first 20 times it was suggested.

 

Well, ignoring the wasteful adjectives in this sentence, I am of the full belief that this issue will not really come to the forefront of the player base until the majority of the players are involved in end-game activities.

 

As most MMO-players can attest, the time spent at end-game usually vastly outweighs the time spent leveling from 1 to level cap. In my PRIMARY reasoning, the issues that arise from NOT being able to change AC specs WITHIN the Core Class will only become noticeable when operation teams and PVE end-game guilds begin to battle with regular roster issues, RL changes, etc that are common to all end-game MMO activities.

 

What's funny is that if you had to choose your AC at character creation screen those crying now wouldn't be posting.

 

But we don't...

 

what's funny is that BW did make a decision. So you can't accept their decision but you want him to if BW changes their mind?

 

They did make a decision, for the time being. As was posted by Greg Zoeller, Lead Combat Designer from Bioware, on November 11, 2011 regarding changing ACs:

 

This is a topic we will constantly evaluate as the game matures. It's very possible that somewhere down the line we find that we want to give people the flexibility of switching ACs, but for launch, this will not be possible.

 

Another thing:

 

I'm seeing quite a bit of 'but you said…' in this thread. Here's the thing.

 

I'm a firm believer in doing the right thing, and that involves being able changing your mind and make new decisions based on facts and feedback. The only field where it is seen as a bad thing for people to change their mind is politics. We're not in politics, we create entertainment software.

 

We're willing to change almost anything when presented with good evidence that it is the right thing to do (which means if it is beneficial to the overall game experience). For example, we found that players being able to permanently kill their companions was bad for the game. We changed that, even though we had already announced that feature, because it was the right thing to do.

 

In other words, we reserve the right to change our minds based on feedback and testing. This is part of what makes an MMO, an MMO.

 

And that's why folks like me are posting our request for change.

[Selgard]

I would like the option to change AC within about an hour of making the decision. (an hour logged into that character).

 

This would allow someone who made a mistake to change it.

 

Otherwise though? No.

Changing from Shadow to Sage is playing an entirely different class. The same is true for all of them. The class changes fundamentally from AC to AC. This is evidenced by the entirely *different* set of skills you learn from your AC training tab.

 

We have 8 character slots per server. There are 8 AC's per side. Coincidence? I think not.

 

You need to think as carefully over which AC you choose as you do over which base class you choose.

 

Swapping from Shadow to Sage is fundamentally the same as deciding you want to swap from Gunslinger to Trooper. If you want to change- roll up a new character.

 

Thats my .02 anyway

[pakchooieunf]

We get it.

 

No, apparently you don't because your first line included some garbage about wanting to play the class du jour, which is at best only true for some people. There is a spectrum of reasons for wanting an AC respec that has, apparently, evaded you. You then tried to qualify your argument with an appeal to popularity.

 

 

Although I could care less if they add this functionality or not, I have yet to see anyone provide a reason WHY this is a bad idea WITHOUT employing logical fallacies. Every argument I've read is an argumentum ad antiquitatem, argumentum ad numerum, or non-sequitor.

[Lauski]

We have 8 character slots per server. There are 8 AC's per side. Coincidence? I think not.

 

I always thought they were for 4 republic and 4 imperial characters.

 

 

Do we actually get 16 slots per server counting both sides? Or just the 8 I see currently when I log in. (I've only created Empire chars thus far).

Edited February 16, 2012 by Lauski

[VanorDM]

I have yet to see anyone provide a reason WHY this is a bad idea WITHOUT employing logical fallacies.

 

There have been plenty of valid reasons why this shouldn't be allowed.

 

The fact that you consider them to be logical fallacies no more makes it true, then saying Advanced Classes are not classes true.

 

I have found that the people who want this, simply reject every reason provided to not allow it, just because they can't actually counter that reason.

 

However I have yet to see a single valid reason to allow it, that couldn't be summed up with "because I want to."

[VanorDM]

Do Marauders and Juggernauts? Yes, the RAGE tree. And the talent tree is identical.

 

That may be, but the Jedi Shadow balance tree is in fact different then the Jedi Sage balance tree. So you may have one case where it's the same but there's also at least one case where it is not the same.

[AzKnc]

Ac switching was originally allowd and rightfully so. I'm sure it will be re implemented in the future, once bw will be done milking the people who rolled the same class multiple times just to play what's basically just a different spec.

 

Being able to switch ac wouldn't affect the game for those people who prefer to have multiple characters for different acs, while as someone else already said, not being able to switch ac penalizes small guilds and players who prefer to focus on a single character.

 

Also

I have yet to see anyone provide a reason WHY this is a bad idea WITHOUT employing logical fallacies.

True.

 

It would be an OPTION. People who don't want it wouldn't be affected by it by simply not using it. They would always be free to roll 100 characters. You can roll 6 characters to cover all acs/trees of a single class for all i care, wanting me to be forced as well because you think it's right that way is perverse to say the least.

Edited February 16, 2012 by AzKnc

[VanorDM]

Ac switching was originally allowd and rightfully so.

 

No it was never allowed in this game. They had at one time considered allowing it, but changed their mind.

 

People who don't want it wouldn't be affected by it by simply not using it.

 

Yes in fact it will effect those who don't want to use it, because they will be expected to use it. Same way someone who plays a healing class in WoW is expected to have a healing spec set up.

 

If the option is there, people will be expected to use it. So allowing the option actually takes away the choice from us.

Edited February 16, 2012 by VanorDM

[ferroz]

Your time is not a known finite unless you're terminally ill.

No, my time is finite, whether I'm terminally ill or not.

[Pravis]

It boils down to players wanting to pass of their choices , regardless of how poor, on to others. It is made very clear from the character creation screen, to the quest giver you first see on the fleet, to the tips that pop up as a default, to the class trainer, to the quest dialogue, to the final disclaimers as you select you AC, and finally on all the official game information online....that the AC is permanent and akin to picking a class at level 1 like other MMOs.

 

When did the complainers notice they didn't like their AC? It doesn't change from level 10 to 50. If you're a tank at 11 you'll be doing the same tanking at 50 with some new abilities. I don't believe anybody who claims they didnt figure it out a few levels past 10 because there is no moment in between where everything changes.

 

considering the only real reason to change AC is to swap to a tanking or healer role is the same as a mage wanting to be a priest...a fundamentally different class...because they recognize that dos are a majority, and priests can heal but also can spec dos if needed while mages can never spec heals.

 

 

 

TL;DR

By level 12 you should know if your AC fits your style. If not then reroll since it only takes a couple hours total to reach that point again.

[tazdirector]

However I have yet to see a single valid reason to allow it, that couldn't be summed up with "because I want to."

 

Though I'm repeating myself, let me provide my PRIMARY reason for allowing this:

 

To provide flexibility to end-game operation teams and smaller PVE guilds by allowing AC-respec between key-roles (DPS to Tank, DPS to Heals, etc) ensuring that a team's progress will not be inordinately delayed by losing a player who's character was in one of those key-roles (i.e. roles that are usually less represented -- Tank and Heals).

 

As noted by Bioware's Greg Zoeller in his 11/10/11 post, this topic will be "constantly evaluated" as the game matures. I underlined the "matures" word because I think this topic (and issue of changing ACs) will be come a greater issue as more and more players take part in end-game activities and importance of operations, flashpoints and hard modes becomes paramount to many players.

 

I suppose you could say that my reasoning is because "I want to...HELP my team succeed by being able to fulfill a key-role in the event the team's roster changes due to RL issues" or "I want to...PROVIDE MY TEAM with FLEXABILITY in the event certain hard mode encounters benefit from having this AC-spec, etc"

 

At no point, have I ever mentioned that my reasoning is based on a LACK of desire to level new toons, experience similar content or play the FotM. The foundation of my argument has always been to support end-game activities as it relates to guild and team-based situations that require flexibility.

 

@ VanorDM: Can I ask (without any tinge of sarcasm) if you've ever been part of a raiding team long team or managed a group of raid teams within a guild?

 

I only ask, because I think my experience in above tells me that SWTOR guilds and operation teams will run into the same issues I've run into with other MMOs and end-game activities and I believe that's KEY to my argument.

[AzKnc]

No it was never allowed in this game. They had at one time considered allowing it, but changed their mind.

 

You probably haven't been in beta for long because it was indeed allowed at some point, in fact, they were still speaking about it as a granted fact in summer 2011.

 

 

 

Yes in fact it will effect those who don't want to use it, because they will be expected to use it. Same way someone who plays a healing class in WoW is expected to have a healing spec set up.

 

If the option is there, people will be expected to use it. So allowing the option actually takes away the choice from us.

 

There are people on wow who play with 2 dps specs or 2 healing specs 2 tank specs and even people who don't dual spec at all cause they can't be arsed with multiple sets of gear so no, saying that people who don't want ac switching would be affected if the option was in game is silly to say the least, and regardless, you would still be allowed to have 100 characters of the same class with different acs, even if you did use ac switching, so your point is null. You would utlimately NOT be affected.

Edited February 16, 2012 by AzKnc

[Pravis]

And players who don't want the change would be affected.

 

Inquisitors and Hunters now have 3 roles they can fill vs 2 roles of Warrior and Agent. The more versatile classes will be in more demand to exclusion of others as well as stealing loot from others. And you know this will happen.

 

However, if it was a one time permanent AC swap, maybe even costing $5 bucks or so then everybody should be fine with it. The main complaint is " i picked the wrong AC. I really wanted to heal not tank" and this fixes that while also not impacting other classes.

 

Simple solution and the one time paid method should be way you people ask for.

[AzKnc]

And players who don't want the change would be affected.

 

Inquisitors and Hunters now have 3 roles they can fill vs 2 roles of Warrior and Agent. The more versatile classes will be in more demand to exclusion of others as well as stealing loot from others. And you know this will happen.

 

However, if it was a one time permanent AC swap, maybe even costing $5 bucks or so then everybody should be fine with it. The main complaint is " i picked the wrong AC. I really wanted to heal not tank" and this fixes that while also not impacting other classes.

 

Simple solution and the one time paid method should be way you people ask for.

 

No they would not.

 

And in the occasion that they felt that way, they could use the option, while STILL being able to have different characters for different acs if they so prefer.

 

So again, null point.

 

About the paid change, no thanks. And nobody here is asking to change because of a mistake, people want to be allowed to change for guild/raid balance issues, utility, preference to play a single character and not having to roll 2 to play what are basically just different specs. Nobody wants to change "because they made a mistake".

 

Paid services are reserved for things were they actually need to go and do something meaningful, changing races, servers, factions etc.. paying for an ac switch, i may as well be paying real cash when training skills at the npc. Makes no sense.

Edited February 16, 2012 by AzKnc

[Raximillian]

They are different classes. A sorc and an assasin play completely different, have different resources, different skills, etc. Using the "repeated" storyline as an excuse is pretty weak too.

 

While I would love to have 8 different storylines, I know it is not really feasible. It takes a LOT of time to get those done. So we got 4 per side, because that's what they were able to accomplish in the given time. So it's not an excuse to be able to change advanced class.

[VanorDM]

No they would not.

 

Yes they would. That's not really something that can be disputed. If the option exists people will be expected to use it.

[AzKnc]

They are different classes. A sorc and an assasin play completely different, have different resources, different skills, etc.

 

By your reasoning, a feral druid, a balance druid, and a resto druid, are 3 different classes, they play completly differently and use different resources and mechanic.

 

The only thing that makes a druid a single class with 3 specs, and a swtor class a class with two other similar classes within that can't be respecced, is a TERRIBLE design choice.