"Advanced Classes = Fundamentally Different Class Designs"

[VanorDM]

You're not removing choices, you're simply changing the way the player base has to access these different specialization.

 

Yes you are removing choices.

 

The only 4 AC's that will effectively exist will be the 4 AC's that are seen to be the best ones. If you play a Shadow, you will not be invited to end game activities because the Sage is the stronger of the two AC's. Same will be true for every class, only 1 of the two AC's will be commonly accepted, and if you don't play that AC you will be expected to respec or else go without groups.

 

You point out this very fact in the quoted text.

Edited February 15, 2012 by VanorDM

[tazdirector]

If you play a Shadow, you will not be invited to end game activities because the Sage is the stronger of the two AC's.

 

Well, this is an MMO. And if Bioware fails to balance the game properly and Shadow is THAT much more powerful, then this makes the situation even worse and not being able to change ACs means all of those Shadow players who have spent months leveling and gearing up will be left with nothing to do at end-game.

 

You're point above is almost the EXACT reason why AC changing should be allowed.

[VanorDM]

I believe this is where you're misreading our requests.

 

No I understand exactly what you want.

 

You want to be able to convert your Jedi Guardian into a Jedi Sentinel or a Sniper into a Operative.

 

What I am saying is that your request is no different in my mind then asking to change your Guardian into a Gunslinger or changing a Mage into a Warrior.

 

Based on the comment by a Bioware dev, they agree with me, and they will not be allowing this.

[tazdirector]

What I am saying is that your request is no different in my mind then asking to change your Guardian into a Gunslinger or changing a Mage into a Warrior.

 

Fair enough...I think this is the part where we part ways and agree to disagree, right?

[VanorDM]

You're point above is almost the EXACT reason why AC changing should be allowed.

 

No, now you are at the point where there's little reason to fix it, because everyone will be playing a Sage. If people complain about the Shadow being underpowered they'll be told to change AC's because there's no point in playing a Shadow at end game.

 

So what you're saying is effectively they should make it so they have no real reason at all to fix a broken class, because everyone can just switch AC's at will.

[VanorDM]

I think this is the part where we part ways and agree to disagree, right?

 

I have no problem doing that. I will however not stop posting in opposition to this idea, because I believe allowing AC respec's could very well be the one thing that could do serious damage or even kill SWTOR.

 

I respect your right to have a different opinion then I do, and I respect your right to try to convince the Dev's to see your point of view.

Edited February 15, 2012 by VanorDM

[tazdirector]

No, now you are at the point where there's little reason to fix it, because everyone will be playing a Sage. If people complain about the Shadow being underpowered they'll be told to change AC's because there's no point in playing a Shadow at end game.

So what you're saying is effectively they should make it so they have no real reason at all to fix a broken class, because everyone can just switch AC's at will.

 

Well, that depends on Bioware. If they want to be a GOOD MMO company, they'll understand the importance of balance. Chart every class in every MMO that has had some sort of history and you'll see the peaks and valleys of balance.

 

It's part of being in an MMO community.

 

But looking at the game from a long-term standpoint, I think the community (at large) will suffer if AND WHEN (and trust me, there will be) imbalance between classes takes place that effectively eliminates the ability for a portion of the player-base to participate in end-game without RE-ROLLING from level 1.

 

I will however not stop posting in opposition to this idea, because I believe allowing AC respec's could very well be the one thing that could do serious damage or even kill SWTOR.

 

By the way, if you want a chuckle, check out this thread from 2004 when respec was under discussion for WoW: http://vnboards.ign.com/world_of_warcraft_general_board/b19789/74487019/p1

 

It just goes to show that these types of changes are never met with universal appreciation. But I think it's been proven that the ability to adapt helps a game long term, not vice-versa.

Edited February 15, 2012 by tazdirector

[Lauski]

No, now you are at the point where there's little reason to fix it, because everyone will be playing a Sage. If people complain about the Shadow being underpowered they'll be told to change AC's because there's no point in playing a Shadow at end game.

 

So what you're saying is effectively they should make it so they have no real reason at all to fix a broken class, because everyone can just switch AC's at will.

 

 

 

You've gone pretty deep in this one aspect... and I'll pick on it, but follow-up with a good question for you.

 

I'm pretty sure that BioWare, as any MMO developer, would give the attention to detail to every single option in this game. You needn't worry about that. Just look at WoW in later years... I remember their patch notes providing specific changes--- listing & calling each of the specs out, as if they were different classes.

 

This patch, Feral Druid DPS adjusted to bla bla bla.

etc.

 

 

I'm sure we can expect the same thing here. Quality adjustments to wherever adjusting is needed. At ===> Any ===> Point in the specialization / class choice.

 

 

But here's my question... we've discussed lots of things here. You've spoken to many points. What's your main underlying, fundamental (if I may ) reason that you're in opposition to allowing AC Change? -- If you could narrow it down to one?

[VanorDM]

What's your main underlying, fundamental (if I may ) reason that you're in opposition to allowing AC Change? -- If you could narrow it down to one?

 

That's a fair question.

 

I'd say my fundamental reason to be against it, is because if an option to change AC's is added, the choice no longer matters, and I believe choice should matter.

 

I would quite gladly support a one time AC respect that expired at lvl 20, because I know not everyone will not make an informed choice, or might even just click on the wrong thing by mistake.

[Pravis]

First of all, I agree with you...we should NOT allow people to change from an assassin to a Powertech....that is MAJOR class shift and something that would dramatically alter the game, especially as Bioware continues to balance the game.

 

However, the previous posts have targeted changing Advanced Classes (Sith Juggernaut to Marauder or Assassin to Sorcerer), staying WITHIN the main MAJOR class (Warrior and Inquisitor respectively).

 

Furthermore, I'm all for replay-ability and indeed, when rolling a NEW MAJOR class, one expects to see familiar content all the way to level cap.

 

But again, to emphasize the original point, neither the OP nor I are promoting the ability to change MAJOR class, just the Advanced Class specialization within...since many of the elements between the ACs are shared as noted in my original post.

 

The advanced classes are the major classes for all intents. The only thing shared between 2 AC's of a class are the resource mechanic (force, heat, etc) everything else is different.

 

Saying Asassin and Sirceror are the same is like saying priests and mages in WoW are the same class because they both use the same stats and mechanic of mana.

[Pravis]

A huge problem with allowing respeccing or dual speccing ACs is that it makes 2 of the classes on each side more powerful, as they can fill 3 roles (tank, heals, dps) when the other 2 can only fill 2 roles.

[Sixt]

double post Edited February 15, 2012 by Sixt

[xyloh]

There are multiple posts from players who haven't read the game guide and who are stuck in the ways of old mmo's

 

http://www.swtor.com/info/newplayerguide/chapter-two

 

Choosing Your Class

 

Each Class is represented with a visual icon at the bottom of your game window. This is the single most important choice that you will ever make in Star Wars™: The Old Republic™, as your Class not only determines your combat style and how to play, but it also determines which of the unique stories you will experience!

 

 

Your class determines your story line, your advanced class determines which specialization you wish to pursue.

 

While it isn't ideal to see the same story line again, hopefully, you would know which role you like playing before hand and go with that one.

 

Personally I like to heal so I rolled scoundrel, commando, and sage to 18 then chose one from there. Currently I have a 50 sage, 31 scoundrel and 25 commando. I have also rolled a Guardian who is level 16 as our guild is currently short tanks but she is on the back burner as I love healing too much!!

 

I personally like this part of the game structure and although I have been a long time gamer, accept the fact that this is not the game I am used to.

 

Let the real gamers learn this new game and those stuck in with bad habits adapt or move on.

 

Edited February 28, 2012 by xyloh

[tazdirector]

The only thing shared between 2 AC's of a class are the resource mechanic (force, heat, etc) everything else is different.

 

Unfortunately, that's simply not true. As outlined in my post on page 6, ACs not only share resources, but abilities (core abilities...i.e. Sith Warrior abilities regardless of being a Juggernaut or Marauder) and a Talent Tree.

 

As also has been outlined, the ACs also share the same story, companions and ship.

 

So in restrospec, everything else is very much the same between the two ACs. One can argue that the only difference is that you're class is restricted to TWO talent trees instead of FOUR, since both ACs share one Talent Tree (RAGE for Sith Warriors is one example).

 

A huge problem with allowing respeccing or dual speccing ACs is that it makes 2 of the classes on each side more powerful, as they can fill 3 roles (tank, heals, dps) when the other 2 can only fill 2 roles.

 

What you are referring to is hybrid classes versus pure DPS classes. Nearly every game has this balance. Stealing again from WoW, there are still plenty of Mages, Warlocks, Rogues and Hunters playing despite their inability to spec into Heals or Tanking.

 

While having the ability to provide tank and/or healing in an operation/flashpoint team is helpful, Bioware (like many other developers) will usually provide a small, but noticeable DPS boost to pure DPS classes to encourage players to roll those classes.

 

Nothing new to the MMO spectrum and it shouldn't be anything to fear either.

 

Your class determines your story line, your advanced class determines which specialization you wish to pursue.

 

Actually, at this point, Your CLASS determines your story line, your class abilities, companions and ship. Your Advanced Class determines which Talent Trees you have available and your Specialization determines...well, which specialization you wish to pursue.

 

Again, no one seems to have an issue with allowing players to select from two specializations, why not allow them all four from a CLASS?

 

NOTE: Also, if you look at that NEW PLAYERS guide you linked to, the section that you bolded (...determines which of the unique stories...) is in reference to the CORE CLASS, not the AC.

 

In fact, reading this guide even further's the PRO-AC changing group.

 

Here is a quote from the NEW PLAYER'S GUIDE:

 

Classes that can play Tanks:

Jedi Knight, Sith Warrior, Bounty Hunter, Trooper, Jedi Consular, Sith Inquisitor

 

Except that a Sith Warrior, AC Marauder and a Bounty Hunter, AC Mercenary cannot tank.

 

Let the real gamers learn this new game and those stuck in with bad habits adapt or move on.

 

Can you expand on these "bad habits". I would also appreciate that you define "real gamers".

Edited February 15, 2012 by tazdirector

[Sixt]

No what you are advocating is the removal of choice. Because if people can change their AC you have effectively removed 4 of the 8 options that are currently in the game.

 

Please explain how letting people continually make choices is reducing choices from 8 to 4.

It is effective increasing choices from 8 to infinity.

 

Yes the importance of that one choice at level 10 is diminished considerably, however that does not make there less choices.

 

I am glad you are happy to level and gear 2 of each class to max level in order to be able to experience everything the game has to offer. Some people do not have the time or desire to do this. They should not be punished for this.

 

Many people's, as they play and experience games over time, tastes change.

Many invest a considerable amount of time in their main character, and the though of just abandoning that character to do something that is possible for their Class, except for one choice at level 10 is not something they want to consider.

[VanorDM]

Please explain how letting people continually make choices is reducing choices from 8 to 4.

 

I have, many times.

 

If they allow AC respec's that means that only the flavor of the month Advanced Classes will be accepted at end game. It's quite simple, just like if you can't do X DPS you're not invited, in this case if you're not AC X you're not invited.

 

Allowing AC respecs means at lvl 50, there will only be 4 classes played.

 

They should not be punished for this.

 

How exactly are they being punished? We're talking about playing a video game here, punishment does not factor into it at any level.

 

Many people's, as they play and experience games over time, tastes change.

 

And if you pick a Mage at level 1 in WoW, does that mean you should somehow be able to change that class into a Warrior at lvl 45 just because you realize you prefer tanking to DPS'ing?

 

Don't bother with 'it's not the same' because it is the same. The fact that the base class could of become either AC doesn't change the fact that a Sage can not tank, or a Shadow can not heal. So you are not asking to simply have access to a different spec, because that spec is not an option for that class

Edited February 15, 2012 by VanorDM

[tazdirector]

@ VanorDM re:

I'd say my fundamental reason to be against it, is because if an option to change AC's is added, the choice no longer matters, and I believe choice should matter.

 

I'm very much in agreement with you that choices should matter.

 

If, for instance, they instituted a multi-planet, quest-chain that (for argument sake) would take two or three hours worth of questing/travel/perhaps a few Heroic [4+], etc in order to make this AC change, would you be more in support of it?

 

In other words, if the choice to change ACs required more thoughtfulness, teamwork, etc to dissuade players from simply changing for the FotM or FotD, would that change your stance?

 

Or is even the option itself a problem for you.

 

If they allow AC respec's that means that only the flavor of the month Advanced Classes will be accepted at end game. It's quite simple, just like if you can't do X DPS you're not invited, in this case if you're not AC X you're not invited.

 

Allowing AC respecs means at lvl 50, there will only be 4 classes played.

 

Wouldn't you also agree that this problem would persist even if AC changes were NOT allowed. If a particular AC is the FoTM, what will keep guilds, PUGs, etc from only selecting those ACs for operations in order to give them the best case scenario?

 

If this is the case and if you get you your wish NOT to allow AC changes, then all of those players with classes that are NOT the FotM will be left out anyway since they have no OPTION to change to the FotM to be competitive.

Edited February 15, 2012 by tazdirector

[Sixt]

Hopefully, you would know which role you like playing before hand and go with that one.

 

We come from a guild that specializes in helping new players.

 

Many of them have never played a MMO before and don't really know what they are going to like. Some times they don't know until they have tried different things, sometimes as they get different abilities at higher levels the experience changes and they decide they now don't like something as much, or see someone else with the same class do something cool and want to try it, only to be told, oh you're screwed, you made a choice at level 10 and now you don't get to make that choice any more on this character. That can be majorly off putting to a new player. They can quite rightly say, "oh, I didn't know I wouldn't be able to do that" that sucks. Not everyone wants at that point to go roll a whole new character to try something out. This to them either invalidates their original character or they get to the same point with the new character, but they don't like it as much as their original, now the new character is a waste to them. If they are someone who doesn't have lots of time, this was a huge chunk of their play experience, most of which was entirely duplicated as the story is identical.

[VanorDM]

Or is even the option itself a problem for you.

 

If the option exists, people will be expected to use it regardless of the requirement.

 

If this is the case and if you get you your wish NOT to allow AC changes

 

Not allowing AC changes is the way it currently works, and is not something the Dev's are even considering.

 

then all of those players with classes that are NOT the FotM will be left out anyway since they have no OPTION to change to the FotM to be competitive.

 

Then those players will be much more vocal about the problem with their class and Bioware will be more likely to address the issues, because people will be talking about them.

 

If simply changing AC is allowed, that means there's going to be fewer people complaining about how poorly their class preforms, because they can just switch it to what ever class preforms better.

 

Allowing a AC change will have the effect of making it easier to keep a class broken, because there will be less attention drawn to the problems for that class, because fewer people are playing it.

[Sixt]

I have, many times.

 

If they allow AC respec's that means that only the flavor of the month Advanced Classes will be accepted at end game. It's quite simple, just like if you can't do X DPS you're not invited, in this case if you're not AC X you're not invited.

 

 

I would hate to be in the guild you are in that does not allow their friends to play what they want over a flavor of the month they don't want to play.

[Sixt]

I have, many times.

 

If they allow AC respec's that means that only the flavor of the month Advanced Classes will be accepted at end game. It's quite simple, just like if you can't do X DPS you're not invited, in this case if you're not AC X you're not invited.

 

How exactly are they being punished? We're talking about playing a video game here, punishment does not factor into it at any level.

 

 

so not being invited is not a punishment, you just invalidated your own argument.

[VanorDM]

I would hate to be in the guild you are in that does not allow their friends to play what they want over a flavor of the month they don't want to play.

 

I'm not in a guild, and if I were we wouldn't require people to play a given AC. But what is true for me is not true for the player base as a whole.

 

Look at WoW for prime examples of this. My friends wife was removed from her guild because she could no longer spend X hours per week doing pre-raid stuff. I have heard countless stories of people who had to prove they could archive X DPS fighting something before they'd be allowed to join in a raid.

 

If people have the option to change AC's then only the best AC's will be accepted. If you're not the correct one, then you will be expected to change it. This type of behavior happens every day in other MMO's and will happen here.

 

The fact that some guilds will not behave that way is not the proper grounds to make design decisions around.

[VanorDM]

so not being invited is not a punishment, you just invalidated your own argument.

 

No, you were saying that people shouldn't be punished by having to roll another character, as if somehow playing a video game can be considered a punishment.

 

Yes they have to do the same story again. But if they make another class on the same faction they are going to do 80% of the same content no matter what, so that's hardly a valid reason to change the way things work.

[Sixt]

 

And if you pick a Mage at level 1 in WoW, does that mean you should somehow be able to change that class into a Warrior at lvl 45 just because you realize you prefer tanking to DPS'ing?

 

no, because mages don't tank.

 

Bounty Hunters tank, but only if you are a Powertech.

 

Powertechs can use death from above, and flamethrowers, and missile, where as mercenaries can use, oh, death from above, flamethrowers and missiles. Totally different class, I see your point!

[Inarai]

no, because mages don't tank.

 

Bounty Hunters tank, but only if you are a Powertech.

 

Powertechs can use death from above, and flamethrowers, and missile, where as mercenaries can use, oh, death from above, flamethrowers and missiles. Totally different class, I see your point!

 

Similarities on the surface do not make the class the same. In a number of game systems across the gaming world, there are fundamentally different classes which share certain attributes which make them superficially similar.

 

In other words, you don't remotely have a point.