"Advanced Classes = Fundamentally Different Class Designs"

[aznthecapn]

Ilum has been worked on how many times so far? Which design did they intend? Bosses not dropping loot? For all I know it's a deliberate speedbump to slow down progression until the next operation comes out-similar to what Blizzard did with C'thun. The GTN? Only 50 auctions at a time and apparent warnings for making too much money are design choices, maybe poor functionality (at least as perceived by many players) is another choice.

 

My imagination is fine-it's the game mechanics and storyline that are the constraining factors here.

 

Bugs, ideas that didn't work out. These are just two reasons why Ilum wasn't working. The only mind changing that has been made is the recent decision to no longer use Ilum as a location to gain gear. Everything else was an effort to get it where it was originally intended to be. It didn't work out. Games development, like so many other things, is a process. Its not a series of "let's do this" - "I changed my mind, let's do this".

 

So what are the reasons? It ruins the game, choices should matter, Bioware said no, no one gets to change classes in other games, why here?-any others I'm missing?

 

You seem very insistent on the first one-since apparently guilds pressure people to choose a role they don't want to play and players can't just say NO to such pressure. Again, why should someone else lacking assertiveness affect how I play? Why not encourage these passive souls to find a less demanding guild instead?

 

I've never said one word about guilds pressuring people into playing a role they don't want to play. Do you even remember who you're discussing this with? That was someone else several pages ago. Personally, its an incredibly flimsy reason because the same could be used to support no dual-spec and I do support that.

[Costantino]

This game is about to get a lot more alt friendly. Just try another class until they start offering legacy perks and then re-roll.

 

^this

 

Another reason to not need AC switching.

[Wetworks]

Yup another night no ops, short on tanks/heals, and have been recruiting two weeks now. Our main ops group is stand still, and 2nd team going no where, most wont even bother logging in tonight.

 

Worse part BW is fully aware that not as many of your customers are seeing this content as expected and have stated it, here many of us are trying to be a part of it.

 

 

 

How simple it would be to have AC change and fix this.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Wetworks

[Wetworks]

^this

 

Another reason to not need AC switching.

 

Oren Shed: I am not thrilled about creating multiple characters and like to stick to just one, as well as a lot of the other population in the game in sure. With the legacy system, would someone like me be losing out a lot of new skills/abilities now since I dont want to create other toons?

 

 

Damion Schubert: We are very sensitive to this, and want to be sure that we don't undermine your playstyle. In particular, we want to be sure that the amount of alt-playing you have to do in order to take part in other activities you might like (warzones, operations) is limited at most. This is why the unlockable 'Heroic Moment' abilities are limited in their usage, and why players can unlock some of the key buffs in the tree with credits instead of alt-playing. Also, as is possible now, players can gain legacy levels and experience even when their normal level is at cap. Yeah, you'll miss out on some cool toys, but for the most part, there will be ways for you to get everything that you need to get.

 

 

If this is a concern then maybe we should see this apply for the option of AC change.

http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/19976-swtor-facebook-q-a-03-06-12

Edited March 11, 2012 by Wetworks

[aznthecapn]

Yup another night no ops, short on tanks/heals, and have been recruiting two weeks now. Our main ops group is stand still, and 2nd team going no where, most wont even bother logging in tonight.

 

Worse part BW is fully aware that not as many of your customers are seeing this content as expected and have stated it, here many of us are trying to provide them with it.

 

How simple it would be to have AC change and fix this.

 

Dual spec will go a long way to helping. That may be a big reason why Bioware doesn't want to implement AC changing. If dual spec solves a lot of the issue, there's no need to change classes - a much larger precedent to set.

[CorellianWannabe]

Bugs, ideas that didn't work out. These are just two reasons why Ilum wasn't working. The only mind changing that has been made is the recent decision to no longer use Ilum as a location to gain gear. Everything else was an effort to get it where it was originally intended to be. It didn't work out. Games development, like so many other things, is a process. Its not a series of "let's do this" - "I changed my mind, let's do this".

 

Yes it is-they did something, didn't like the results, and did something else. What else do you call changing your mind if not doing something else?

 

 

I've never said one word about guilds pressuring people into playing a role they don't want to play. Do you even remember who you're discussing this with? That was someone else several pages ago. Personally, its an incredibly flimsy reason because the same could be used to support no dual-spec and I do support that.

 

 

 

Originally Posted by CorellianWannabe

Just like you saying 'it somehow ruins my gameplay for you to have the option' doesn't make that true.

 

Except it is true. Sorry.

 

Does the above look familiar? To you advanced spec switching ruins your gameplay, even though you never have to do it. How have I misrepresented you?

 

I also don't understand how one can oppose 'spec you choose at level 10' and support 'spec you choose from level 10-50 and can change at will'.

[aznthecapn]

Yes it is-they did something, didn't like the results, and did something else. What else do you call changing your mind if not doing something else?

 

I'm finding it very hard to believe you mean what you're saying here. Here's an example. I want to build my son a tree house. I want this tree house to have a ladder built into the trunk, a balcony, windows, a wooden roof, a fireman's pole you slide down, a rope swing, a zip line from his room to the balcony - a real fancy job.

 

Unfortunately, I have a deadline to build it - my son's birthday is in a month and my wife would like it done for that. I plan out everything I want to do but scale it down to something I can manage in a month. When its done my son is elated and loves it. Over the next few months I add the zip line, the pole, expand the balcony, replace a rope ladder with a fixed on screwed into the trunk.

 

I have not changed my mind about the original tree house. I knew what I wanted from the start - just because I didn't have the time to flesh it out before it was to be presented doesn't mean I changed my mind when I decided to add to it.

 

 

Does the above look familiar? To you advanced spec switching ruins your gameplay, even though you never have to do it. How have I misrepresented you?

 

Here is your original quote:

 

You seem very insistent on the first one-since apparently guilds pressure people to choose a role they don't want to play and players can't just say NO to such pressure. Again, why should someone else lacking assertiveness affect how I play? Why not encourage these passive souls to find a less demanding guild instead?

 

Where in my quote, which you provided, did I say that I or anyone else would be forced to change class because it was in there? That's token misrepresentation. You took what I said and applied a completely different conclusion.

 

I also don't understand how one can oppose 'spec you choose at level 10' and support 'spec you choose from level 10-50 and can change at will'.

 

Dual spec is totally different. The classes were designed so that you could change spec if you wanted to. They were not designed so you can change your class. Different specs perform similarly - Assassin tanks still use stealth, just like Assassin DPS. Changing from Assassin gameplay to Sorcerer gameplay is a dramatic change. That's how I and many, many others support dual spec but not class changes.

Edited March 11, 2012 by aznthecapn

[CorellianWannabe]

I'm finding it very hard to believe you mean what you're saying here. Here's an example. I want to build my son a tree house. I want this tree house to have a ladder built into the trunk, a balcony, windows, a wooden roof, a fireman's pole you slide down, a rope swing, a zip line from his room to the balcony - a real fancy job.

 

Unfortunately, I have a deadline to build it - my son's birthday is in a month and my wife would like it done for that. I plan out everything I want to do but scale it down to something I can manage in a month. When its done my son is elated and loves it. Over the next few months I add the zip line, the pole, expand the balcony, replace a rope ladder with a fixed on screwed into the trunk.

 

I have not changed my mind about the original tree house. I knew what I wanted from the start - just because I didn't have the time to flesh it out before it was to be presented doesn't mean I changed my mind when I decided to add to it.

 

So how does that explain Ilum? What about nerfs to slicing? They planned to have it give poor returns and didn't have time to implement it properly?

 

 

 

 

Here is your original quote:

 

 

 

Where in my quote, which you provided, did I say that I or anyone else would be forced to change class because it was in there? That's token misrepresentation. You took what I said and applied a completely different conclusion.

 

 

 

Dual spec is totally different. The classes were designed so that you could change spec if you wanted to. They were not designed so you can change your class. Different specs perform similarly - Assassin tanks still use stealth, just like Assassin DPS. Changing from Assassin gameplay to Sorcerer gameplay is a dramatic change. That's how I and many, many others support dual spec but not class changes.

 

So I was right in that you feel it ruins your gameplay for me to have the option, just wrong in the reason why. Your reasoning is more like this..

 

When people swap randomly because of a nerf or buff or a perceived slight to their class by the developers it damages the continuity of the game. There are builds for a Gunslinger that are less reliant on cover. They are a little more hybridized but if that's how you want to play, try them. Demanding to change your class entirely on a whim isn't justification for the system. Learn to play the Scoundrel as you level. Instead of only 80% of the story being the same (non-class questing) 100% is the same.

 

And yes, you do have the time. Your time is not a known finite unless you're terminally ill. It may take you a while but you'll get that class to max level eventually.

 

So if a talent-based spec is nerfed it's ok for everyone to drop it, but nerfing an entire advanced spec means you'd better reroll since you're not dying or anything, right?

 

Again, why not make a player choose a role and stick to it? You want to heal? Pick healing talents and suck it up-don't level as dps then expect to play healer at endgame. Isn't that why you have a companion?

Diablo 2 did not allow respecs for years and has been an extremely popular MMO, so it's not a requirement to allow players to change.

 

Elemental/Restoration shaman and enhancement shaman played completely differently-I suppose they should have been different classes? (See, no mention of the hated druid!)

 

Marauder and Juggernaut play similarly-so they should be the same class?

 

Sorceror and Assassin seem to be the only radically different specs-the other 3 don't seem different enough to warrant different advanced specs, given how different the talent-based specs already play.

[Sapphix]

I fail to see how allowing AC respec is good for the game.

 

Why should they make a system to swap specs?

In what ways would this have a positive impact on the game?

How would this effect the Legacy system?

How would this effect the class system?

What about future classes?

 

Most of the posts I see are people saying they want to change because they don't like the AC they picked and don't like the game enough to play it a second time. These type of people would probably lose interest even if they where allowed to respec.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Sapphix

[CorellianWannabe]

I fail to see how allowing AC respec is good for the game.

 

Why should they make a system to swap specs?

In what ways would this have a positive impact on the game?

How would this effect the Legacy system?

How would this effect the class system?

What about future classes?

 

Most of the posts I see are people saying they want to change because they don't like the AC they picked and don't like the game enough to play it a second time. These type of people would probably lose interest even if they where allowed to respec.

 

At least you admit they are specs-not classes.

 

By that logic people should be forced to reroll rather than be allowed to reallocate talent points. If not they don't like the game enough, right? Hardcore fans scour the internet for talent point allocation advice and use spreadsheets for optimum builds-and don't need the coddling that respecs allow! That just dilutes the game and proves you don't really like playing enough to grind another toon!

 

Not wanting to play out the EXACT same story again (rather than a mere 80-85% being exact in the case of a different class) is a sign of not liking the game enough? Wow, I guess a lot of people just aren't real fans (short for fanatics?). I assume you've never availed yourself of the soul-destroying respec? You like the game too much for that, right?

 

Will future classes have advanced specs as well? If so what would change by allowing switching of them as well? If not then Bioware learned something from all this.

 

How would it affect the class system? If mercenaries are nerfed players could switch to powertechs, as opposed to hoping they want to reroll to play powertech or reroll to play another class. Hell, they might just quit instead.

 

The Legacy system? You mean 'Chiss Troopers that use Force Choke'? Does it matter what happens to this abomination?

 

It's a positive effect because some people want it as a quality of life benefit, and the naysayers don't have to use it. It doesn't have to affect you in the slightest, unless seeing Joe Bob the sorceror today when he was an assassin yesterday blows your mind. If that's the case I hope you don't notice the dozens of Khem Vals on the fleet. If you're worried about the purity of the game, that will be gone with patch 1.2 anyway (Miraluka agents- oh yeah that makes sense).

[aznthecapn]

So how does that explain Ilum? What about nerfs to slicing? They planned to have it give poor returns and didn't have time to implement it properly?

 

This part of the discussion is pointless. I never said developers can't change their mind - I disputed your implication that the condition of everything upon release is exactly as intended (i.e. the GTN) and that any changes made to the game was a reversal of the original design intent (a la changing their mind). You understand now that some things are changed because of the developmental process (GTN, Ilum dailies) and some things are changed because the design plan didn't work out (Slicing).

 

So I was right in that you feel it ruins your gameplay for me to have the option, just wrong in the reason why. Your reasoning is more like this..

 

So if a talent-based spec is nerfed it's ok for everyone to drop it, but nerfing an entire advanced spec means you'd better reroll since you're not dying or anything, right?

 

People jump ship on specs faster than investors bailed on AIG. Most of the time its unwarranted because changes are balance issues, not out and out nerfing. Whole classes won't see that level of change - or at least shouldn't if Bioware is doing it right - therefore jumping ship to a new class would unnecessary. The comment about dieing is a response to people who say they "don't have time to roll a new class" when they do, they just don't want to put in the time necessary to do it (2-3 weeks if you're diligent and it really matters to you).

 

Again, why not make a player choose a role and stick to it? You want to heal? Pick healing talents and suck it up-don't level as dps then expect to play healer at endgame. Isn't that why you have a companion?

Diablo 2 did not allow respecs for years and has been an extremely popular MMO, so it's not a requirement to allow players to change.

 

Because there are degrees of good choices. Choices that keep you within a given playstyle but subtly alter how you approach it are what specs do. This means spec changing isn't so dramatic a shift. SWTOR is designed that way. A choice that substantially changes how you play your character (a class change) isn't in this game.

 

Diablo 2 wasn't an MMO. It was a single player game with online play.

 

Elemental/Restoration shaman and enhancement shaman played completely differently-I suppose they should have been different classes? (See, no mention of the hated druid!)

 

Are we talking about SWTOR or WoW? SWTOR isn't designed that way.

 

Marauder and Juggernaut play similarly-so they should be the same class?

 

Sorceror and Assassin seem to be the only radically different specs-the other 3 don't seem different enough to warrant different advanced specs, given how different the talent-based specs already play.

 

The Knight/Warrior classes are the two that are far too similar in my mind. Trooper/Bounty Hunter, Inquisitor/Consular and Smuggler/Agent classes shift pretty significantly (close/mid range combat vs. ranged). I'd prefer Bioware alter the Warrior/Knight class design so they are more different than they are right now.

[Sapphix]

At least you admit they are specs-not classes.

 

That was bad wording on my part. In no way do I feel that AC are specs, they are classes by design. The devs already stated that and I do not want to see our class system reduced to 4 from 8.

 

I did not see anything in the rest of your response that answered my looming question; How would this be good for the game?

[MajikMyst]

So how does that explain Ilum? What about nerfs to slicing? They planned to have it give poor returns and didn't have time to implement it properly?

 

It explains it perfectly.. I just don't understand what your missing??

 

Thomad Edison needed thousands of attempts to make the light bulb.. The idea never changed, nor did the intent.. So why does the number of attempts to get it right change things??

 

Slicing was never intended to be the money making thing that it was.. It was for the beta players.. We had no means to make money in the beta.. So now it has to be adjusted for live, I see no issue for that..

 

I also don't see how this had anything to do with AC switching.. Bioware NEVER intended AC switching to take place and I hope they hold true to that promise.. The issue came up in the beta.. You can thank us for all the information you have available to you not to make your choice.. Back in the beta.. There was no codex entries, no looking over the talent trees of each AC before you made your choice, and no brief description of what each AC did, what their roles were, and what gear or weapon they used.. All of that was added thanks to the beta testers.. The warnings were always there, and they always said thay your choice would be permenant..

 

There is no reason for AC switcing.. There is simply no arguement for it either.. Making up your own little list of standards to suit your own views isn't going to work.. Your AC is your class.. You are a Jedi Sentinel, or a Jedi Guardian.. There are two Jedi classes and two Consular classes.. Two smuggler classes and two trooper classes.. Same holds true for all of the imperial classes..

Edited March 11, 2012 by MajikMyst

[Autorch]

That was bad wording on my part. In no way do I feel that AC are specs, they are classes by design. The devs already stated that and I do not want to see our class system reduced to 4 from 8.

 

I did not see anything in the rest of your response that answered my looming question; How would this be good for the game?

 

May I field that one?

 

First, let’s state that “good” and “bad” are wildly subjective terms. You have people who are perfectly willing to call a 10-million-subscriber game bad and a failure, for instance. It raises the question of “by what standard” or “just what exactly do you mean by bad”.

 

If I may I’d like to offer the following definition: “Good” is something that retains subscribers to the game, or encourages new ones. “Bad” is the opposite: something that turns people off of the game, and discourages them from renewing their subscription.

 

That’s pretty broad, maybe even too broad or too vague, but let’s run with that for a minute. After all, the success or failure of the game is whether or not people continue to play it. If people don’t play it, that’s it for SWTOR, consigned to history like countless others.

 

The reason why an appropriate AC respec mechanism would be good for the game is that it would help with the colossal problem of lack of content. This is stated over and over and over again in this thread and others like it. For every post that you may point to that supposedly has some person stating that they “just wanna” switch over and play the other AC, I can give you five that specifically state the reason as being the lack of content in the leveling process. This game is extremely linear from 1-50 and there is very little freedom to make it a different experience on additional playthroughs.

 

If they allowed AC respec, it would be a cheap way to put a fresh coat of paint on the existing content, thus offering an incentive to people who are unhappy with the lack of content to continue playing. That’s why it would be good for the game. Because it encourages subscriber retention.

 

Personally, I think that if the designers had provided a non-linear leveling process and provided unique content per Advanced Class, the frequency of requests or threads like this one would be way down.

 

I myself wasn’t in favor of AC respec until I experienced the reality of the game firsthand. I now have 2 level 50s and 6 level 10s…one of every Advanced Class, all Imperial.

 

But I tell you truly, those 10s are unlikely to level any further. The leveling content is just too repetitive and linear to endure any further, and the two stories I've seen to completion are not compelling enough to be forced to experience them a second time. The various decision and alignment choices you can make along the way to try and make it different are color and flavor at best. Mass Effect this absolutely is not.

 

Simply put, that’s not fun. It’s boring. Bored people don’t renew their subscriptions. That is bad.

[Deewe]

**snip**

 

Personally, I think that if the designers had provided a non-linear leveling process and provided unique content per Advanced Class, the frequency of requests or threads like this one would be way down.

 

I myself wasn’t in favor of AC respec until I experienced the reality of the game firsthand. I now have 2 level 50s and 6 level 10s…one of every Advanced Class, all Imperial.

 

**snip **

 

The leveling content is just too repetitive and linear to endure any further, and the two stories I've seen to completion are not compelling enough to be forced to experience them a second time.

 

**snip**

 

Simply put, that’s not fun. It’s boring. Bored people don’t renew their subscriptions. That is bad.

A good wrap up of the current issue.

[MajikMyst]

A good wrap up of the current issue.

 

No.. It wasn't a good wrap up of the current issue.. All of the oceans on our planet are filled with salt water.. Why complain about the fact they are filled with salt water?? So why are people complaining about repeating quests over again.. You have to do it in every MMO you play..

 

First of all, you can't have story and not be linear.. Stories are linear.. Even WOW, with it's minimal story is linear.. All Blood elves have the same exact baby quests to start with.. After Ghostlands you will be taken to Undercity and then Terran Mills.. No matter what class you are..

 

2nd, there isn't an MMO in existence that has completely new and different quests for each and every class.. Dailies are not different from class to the other.. The entire arguement over doing the same quests is simply ignorning reality, or at the very least forgetting reality.. Do Operations or raids change because someone is a different class??

 

Aren't all the raids, flashpoints, heroics, and operations all linear?? I could go on and on.. The fact that A Jedi Sentinel shares the story with a Jedi Guardian is irrelevent.. It is in no way a reason to allow AC switching.. If you don't like doing quests over again, then perhaps an MMO isn't right for you.. Any MMO for that matter.. Because there is no MMO that doesn't have you repeating quests at some point while you play the game.. It is just the reality of an MMO..

Edited March 12, 2012 by MajikMyst

[MajikMyst]

Personally, I think that if the designers had provided a non-linear leveling process and provided unique content per Advanced Class, the frequency of requests or threads like this one would be way down.

 

So it is your view that ever class should have it's own set of quests.. Does this include flashpoints or operations as well??

 

Can you name a single MMO in which every class has their own set of quests??

 

Can you name any venue in which story was not linear??

 

I don't think the developers had anything to do with the frequency of these threads..

 

I think the only mistake the developers made was allowing us to choose our AC at lvl 10.. The real funny thing is, it doesn't matter when you get your talent trees.. WOW was lvl 10 also and I did see the constant attemp to justify a class change.. For some reason choosing your AC at lvl 10 means it can be changed appearantly.. Had we chose our AC at lvl 0 during creation and there would be no issue.. People would just have to reroll their characters like any other MMO.. I don't see what the big deal is.. You select it during character creation, and you reroll, select it at lvl 10 and you reroll.. You still wouldn't get your AC kits and your talent trees until lvl 10.. What is the problem??

 

The other issue is, you all just want a character that can both tank and heal.. Bioware purposely made it so that no single class can tank and heal.. What is wrong with rolling another character??

Edited March 12, 2012 by MajikMyst

[Maltra]

With the legacy system coming up, they should add a feature working as follows: once you have an advanced class to level 50 and then you level the opposite one to 50 too, you can then switch between the two acs on either of those two characters as easily as you can currently change your talent points.

 

I could live with the tedium of having to just level the second ac to 50 so i can unlock it for my main char, but i don't want to use two different characters all the time just to play different glorified specs.

 

To make it clearer, if i have a 50 commando and then also level a vanguard to 50, then my commando can respec to vanguard and vice versa at some npc at any time.

 

But i bet someone in here will just come up and say he wouldn't be fine with that because.... just because. That's what they do.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Maltra

[aznthecapn]

To make it clearer, if i have a 50 commando and then also level a vanguard to 50, then my commando can respec to vanguard and vice versa at some npc at any time.

 

I'm okay with that. Not sure it would solve any issues but if you have both then swapping them doesn't seem like a major issue. Assuming that, if you deleted one, you'd lose the ability to swap the other.

Edited March 12, 2012 by aznthecapn

[aznthecapn]

If they allowed AC respec, it would be a cheap way to put a fresh coat of paint on the existing content, thus offering an incentive to people who are unhappy with the lack of content to continue playing. That’s why it would be good for the game. Because it encourages subscriber retention.

 

Personally, I think that if the designers had provided a non-linear leveling process and provided unique content per Advanced Class, the frequency of requests or threads like this one would be way down.

 

This is my single biggest issue with the game. In WoW, I could choose where I wanted to go through most of my leveling. When I hit level 10 on my human, I could go to Darkshore, Westfall or Loch Modan. There's a lot of different things to experience as you level. Even towards the end of the 60s I could choose from EPL or Winterspring. This choice was reduced dramatically in expansions, however.

 

I can legitimately see myself changing my mind one day down the road because of this. For now, however, I'm enjoying the gameplay difference in my alts and exploring different choices despite how similar the storyline is.

[Roccobb]

You go 50 levels learning how to dps with a certain character. You are good at that role. Suddenly, at 50, you are a healer. You have no idea the best ways to do things. However, as group leader, I see a 50 healer, and we need one. Do you have any idea how many times I have been burned in a group on other games because of this? Or just about any other exchange? I vote no because most people will not research their new skills to find out the best combos. I want to at least believe that the 50 healer I just brought in has a freaking clue how to play the class.

[Roccobb]

This is my single biggest issue with the game. In WoW, I could choose where I wanted to go through most of my leveling. When I hit level 10 on my human, I could go to Darkshore, Westfall or Loch Modan. There's a lot of different things to experience as you level. Even towards the end of the 60s I could choose from EPL or Winterspring. This choice was reduced dramatically in expansions, however.

 

I can legitimately see myself changing my mind one day down the road because of this. For now, however, I'm enjoying the gameplay difference in my alts and exploring different choices despite how similar the storyline is.

 

May I ask if all that extra beginning content was available at launch, or was it released later? Most people seem to forget this game has been out 3 months... :-)

[aznthecapn]

May I ask if all that extra beginning content was available at launch, or was it released later? Most people seem to forget this game has been out 3 months... :-)

 

Did you not play WoW?

 

These levels are rough estimations but pretty close to what you can expect.

 

Human:

1-10 Elwynn Forest

10-20 Westfall

20-30 LAkeshire/Duskwood

 

Night Elves:

1-10 Teldrassil

10-20 Darkshore

20-30 Ashenvale

 

Dwarves/Gnomes

1-10 Dun Morogh

10-20 Loch Modan

20-30 Wetlands

 

You can go to any one of these zones at any point you want to. I can take my level one Night Elf to Elwynn and start there if I had the patience and inclination. I have three different areas to level in.

 

Beyond this there's still choice about where you level in each bracket. There's at least two, usually three, zones to choose from. And all of this was in game on day one. The more I think about it, the more I realize how appalling the lack of varied content is. One planet to level on at a time is just sad.

Edited March 12, 2012 by aznthecapn

[Autorch]

So it is your view that ever class should have it's own set of quests..

It is my view that every class should have its own unique content, yes. And if you’re going to build a game which emphasizes the “4th pillar” as its major selling point, then yes, you’d better deliver the vaunted 4th pillars on all the classes.

Does this include flashpoints or operations as well??

I’m sorry, I’m going to have to call that a rhetorical question, as well as nonsensical, but the answer is obviously not. Neither would any other form of shared content.

 

I believe that you are either being willingly obtuse, or that you're actually unable to understand things that are possible to not be 100% one way or another.

 

You appear to be representing me as saying that every class should have only their own unique and non-overlapping content. Which I of course didn’t say, which would be a straw man if you were to present it as being my point of view. Which you're not. Right?

 

Can you name a single MMO in which every class has their own set of quests??

In World of Warcraft every class has its own set of quests, as you well know, having flexed your WoW bona fides repeatedly and at length in this very thread.

 

The content set is not extensive (read: pathetically small), and it’s a design they’ve moved even farther away from since release, eliminating most of what little was originally there, but every class in World of Warcraft has unique content which only that class experiences. It’s yet another reason why you can’t validly compare SWTOR Advanced Classes to WoW classes.

 

Can you name any venue in which story was not linear??

Mass Effect provides an excellent example of nonlinear story structure. The first two more so than the third. They’re all structured around a narrative that’s like assembling pieces in a puzzle, bookended by linear sequences. When in the nonlinear segments, you can do the pieces in virtually any order; once you’ve completed all of them you then pass through a linear episode.

 

In the third one they’ve gone with a more linear structure where you’re only deciding “when” rather than also “in what order” that you experience the available content. But the nonlinear sidequests have an influence on the linear parts that you see.

 

I can well imagine a similar structure that might be workable here. It just wasn’t done. I don't really fault them for that, it's far easier to say than do, but I'd have been fine with 16 linear stories instead of just 8 shared.

 

In other media, try Memento for an example of another way to present a nonlinear narrative. You are of course displayed the frames of the actual film in a linear order, but the narrative you’re presented is not presented in a linear order. Your personal assemblage, of what you think is the correct linear order is, results in different reconstructions and understandings of the narrative from other viewers. Nonlinearity is again the end result.

 

I don't think the developers had anything to do with the frequency of these threads..

The design decisions made have everything to do with the frequency of threads praising or complaining about them. This is such an obvious point I am in disbelief that I have to explain it. You can call the entity who makes those decisions “developers” or “designers” or whatever you like. In my professional life “developer” means a guy like me, who specifically writes code that makes it go, and aren’t necessarily the same thing as designers and project decision-makers. I used the word “designers” specifically to convey that nuance.

I think the only mistake the developers made was allowing us to choose our AC at lvl 10.. The real funny thing is, it doesn't matter when you get your talent trees.. WOW was lvl 10 also and I did see the constant attemp to justify a class change.. For some reason choosing your AC at lvl 10 means it can be changed appearantly.. Had we chose our AC at lvl 0 during creation and there would be no issue.. People would just have to reroll their characters like any other MMO.. I don't see what the big deal is.. You select it during character creation, and you reroll, select it at lvl 10 and you reroll.. You still wouldn't get your AC kits and your talent trees until lvl 10.. What is the problem??

The problem is the recycling of 100% of the content from 1-50, and having to go through it in the same linear order. As has been stated here by multiple posters in multiple forms.

 

I seriously question whether or not you’re actually reading the things other people write, or are just cherry-picking, or what it is that you do that could lead to such wild misunderstandings.

The other issue is, you all just want a character that can both tank and heal.. Bioware purposely made it so that no single class can tank and heal.. What is wrong with rolling another character??

I think the real issue is that you think that everyone else in the world has to be thinking what you think they’re thinking. News flash: They’re not.

[Maltra]

So not only do you want to be able to change your AC but you want a FREE level 50 of the same base class as well?

 

The sense of entitlement is strong in this one...

 

I think you might want to learn how to read, i would level both acs to 50. And then i'd be able to switch ac as i please on both of them. Nowhere in my post i asked for a free 50.

 

But i guess this is what you do right? When you have no arguments or anything to reply you pretend to not understand what is being said so you can spawn pointless discussions and going off topic.

 

How could you come to the conclusion that i want a free 50 is beyond me, what i suggested seemed pretty clear to me, and i even explained it more than once to avoid misunderstandings.

 

.... once you have an advanced class to level 50 and then you level the opposite one to 50 too, you can then switch between the two acs .....

 

...... To make it clearer, if i have a 50 commando and then also level a vanguard to 50, then my commando can respec to vanguard and vice versa at some npc at any time......

 

I mean, really, how could you, of all things, assume i was asking for a second free 50 character ANYWHERE at ANY POINT in my suggestion is beyond me.

 

Reading skills are weak in this one.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Maltra